Mir Calls Fedor's Fights 'More of a Carnival'
MMAPlayground.com »
Community »
MMA News Share Forum »
Mir Calls Fedor's Fights 'More of a Carnival'
SmileR
2/20/08 12:51:07PM
I agree with what he's saying here to a point but how can a guy who Fedor beat twice be called the best i the world?
But how can Fedor be called the best in the world if he's not fighting top competition?!
Dam it why can't fighters and MMA companies just get along!?
Anyway here's the first link
And the full interview here
Mir just seams like a cool guy, and i don't think he means to offend anyone if you read the full interview.
But how can Fedor be called the best in the world if he's not fighting top competition?!
Dam it why can't fighters and MMA companies just get along!?
Anyway here's the first link
And the full interview here
Mir just seams like a cool guy, and i don't think he means to offend anyone if you read the full interview.
tuvok500
2/20/08 1:20:46PM
Mir is right, end of the story !!
Nog is the champ in the UFC and he is #1 HW fighter in the world.
Fedor was better 2 years a go but he did nothing since that the keep his ranking.
A ranking is not forever no matter what you do or who you fight.
Go Mir !!
Nog is the champ in the UFC and he is #1 HW fighter in the world.
Fedor was better 2 years a go but he did nothing since that the keep his ranking.
A ranking is not forever no matter what you do or who you fight.
Go Mir !!
MALICE
2/20/08 1:25:24PM
Nogs last 5 fights:
Sylvia -- Top 10 HW
Herring -- Legit HW
Barnett -- Top 10 HW
Barnett -- "
Werdum -- Legit HW
Fedors last 5 fights:
Hong Man Choi -- Green HW
Lindland -- Top 10 MW
Hunt -- HW
Coleman -- Old HW
Martins -- Green HW
Who's been fighting top competition lately? My vote goes to NOG.
Mir has always given full respect to his fellow fighters. His point is valid. Earning the right to be called the best is a hard road. But it doesn't stop there. If you want to remain "The Best", you can't simply continue to fight. You must continue to fight top competition. This is why I see Nogueira as #1.
Sylvia -- Top 10 HW
Herring -- Legit HW
Barnett -- Top 10 HW
Barnett -- "
Werdum -- Legit HW
Fedors last 5 fights:
Hong Man Choi -- Green HW
Lindland -- Top 10 MW
Hunt -- HW
Coleman -- Old HW
Martins -- Green HW
Who's been fighting top competition lately? My vote goes to NOG.
Mir has always given full respect to his fellow fighters. His point is valid. Earning the right to be called the best is a hard road. But it doesn't stop there. If you want to remain "The Best", you can't simply continue to fight. You must continue to fight top competition. This is why I see Nogueira as #1.
waylon_o
2/20/08 1:29:47PM
Mir is a great guy...very humble and respectful. I think and hope that good things are heading his direction.
Pyrenus
2/20/08 2:17:15PM
He comes off as articulate and intelligent, and I agree with everything he says.
Ordep
2/20/08 4:19:46PM
Current Ranking: Nog #1
All-time Ranking: Fedor #1
All-time Ranking: Fedor #1
juanez13
2/20/08 5:05:22PM
Posted by Ordep
Current Ranking: Nog #1
All-time Ranking: Fedor #1
yea nog deserves do be ranked No.1 right now, becuase he is the UFC champ.........but on an all time ranking i'd put fedor No.2, Nog is ranked No.1 but i think everyone knows on a skill level Fedor is the best.
roman
2/20/08 5:06:09PM
And figthing a 1-0 Lesnar is not a Carnival?????
The fact is Fedor beat Nog twice without question. They were both one sided fights with Fedor dominating the entire time. Nog is my favorite fighter (besides Hendo) and I still have him at #2. Yes Fedor has to fight better competition (and Hunt is a badass guys, that was a legit fight) but he is still #1 regardless.
I feel there is no way you can question Fedor's #1 spot until he loses, plain and simple.
The fact is Fedor beat Nog twice without question. They were both one sided fights with Fedor dominating the entire time. Nog is my favorite fighter (besides Hendo) and I still have him at #2. Yes Fedor has to fight better competition (and Hunt is a badass guys, that was a legit fight) but he is still #1 regardless.
I feel there is no way you can question Fedor's #1 spot until he loses, plain and simple.
MALICE
2/20/08 5:13:58PM
Posted by roman
And figthing a 1-0 Lesnar is not a Carnival?????
The fact is Fedor beat Nog twice without question. They were both one sided fights with Fedor dominating the entire time. Nog is my favorite fighter (besides Hendo) and I still have him at #2. Yes Fedor has to fight better competition (and Hunt is a badass guys, that was a legit fight) but he is still #1 regardless.
I feel there is no way you can question Fedor's #1 spot until he loses, plain and simple.
Mir is not a Top 10 HW on most lists right now, so fighting a newcomer who is a college wrestling champ, is not so abnormal.
But if you are known to be the #1 HW fighter in the world on almost every top ten list in the mma, it just looks ridiculous to fight a 1 - 0 fighter.
Its like placing the Superbowl champs against a highschool team. Doesn't make sense.
silverbullet
2/20/08 5:40:02PM
Listen Fedor's last serious win was against Big Nog back in 2004.
Other notable Fedor fights since 2004:
Near loss BY SUBMISSION to kickboxer Mark Hunt (5-3 MMA)
Win against CC (kickboxer)
Win against geriatric Mark Coleman
Win against middleweight Matt Lindland
Three more wins against unranked fighters and an amateur (Zuluzinho, Kohsaka, Choi)
Which rankings list Fedor as #1 again??
Other notable Fedor fights since 2004:
Near loss BY SUBMISSION to kickboxer Mark Hunt (5-3 MMA)
Win against CC (kickboxer)
Win against geriatric Mark Coleman
Win against middleweight Matt Lindland
Three more wins against unranked fighters and an amateur (Zuluzinho, Kohsaka, Choi)
Which rankings list Fedor as #1 again??
waylon_o
2/20/08 5:47:19PM
Posted by silverbullet
Listen Fedor's last serious win was against Big Nog back in 2004.
Other notable Fedor fights since 2004:
Near loss BY SUBMISSION to kickboxer Mark Hunt (5-3 MMA)
Win against CC (kickboxer)
Win against geriatric Mark Coleman
Win against middleweight Matt Lindland
Three more wins against unranked fighters and an amateur (Zuluzinho, Kohsaka, Choi)
Which rankings list Fedor as #1 again??
How can you not count his win against CC as a serious win? That's insane...A lot of people might hate CC because he lost his last 2 fights, but you can't say that he wasn't in his prime when he fought CC.
jimmypockets
2/20/08 7:52:54PM
That is ridiculous. Fedor beat Nog twice. Not to mention the fact that in order to be the best you have to beat the best. Nogueira himself probably doesn't think of himself as #1. You need to stay off the Elmer's.
Top 5 Heavyweights- 1) Fedor Emelianenko, 2) Randy Couture 3) Big Nog 4) Josh Barnett 5) Frank Mir (If in shape)
Top 5 Heavyweights- 1) Fedor Emelianenko, 2) Randy Couture 3) Big Nog 4) Josh Barnett 5) Frank Mir (If in shape)
MALICE
2/20/08 8:03:40PM
Posted by jimmypockets
That is ridiculous. Fedor beat Nog twice. Not to mention the fact that in order to be the best you have to beat the best. Nogueira himself probably doesn't think of himself as #1. You need to stay off the Elmer's.
Top 5 Heavyweights- 1) Fedor Emelianenko, 2) Randy Couture 3) Big Nog 4) Josh Barnett 5) Frank Mir (If in shape)
Dude, This is your top ten HW list. Not even close to the list above. Lesnar #3....C'Mon. And Mir #7, who just beat your #3......C'Mon. Nogueira is not even on the list for cryin' out loud.
#1 Fedor Emelianenko
#2 Randy "The Natural " Couture
#3 Brock Lesnar
#4 Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic
#5 Aleksander Emelianenko
#6 Josh "The Babyface Assassin" Barnett
#7 Frank Mir
#8 Mark Hunt
#9 Andrei "Pitbull" Arlovski
#10 Antonio "Junior" Silva
tuvok500
2/20/08 8:07:52PM
Posted by xxMALICExx
Posted by jimmypockets
That is ridiculous. Fedor beat Nog twice. Not to mention the fact that in order to be the best you have to beat the best. Nogueira himself probably doesn't think of himself as #1. You need to stay off the Elmer's.
Top 5 Heavyweights- 1) Fedor Emelianenko, 2) Randy Couture 3) Big Nog 4) Josh Barnett 5) Frank Mir (If in shape)
Dude, This is your top ten HW list. Not even close to the list above. Lesnar #3....C'Mon. And Mir #7, who just beat your #3......C'Mon. Nogueira is not even on the list for cryin' out loud.
#1 Fedor Emelianenko
#2 Randy "The Natural " Couture
#3 Brock Lesnar
#4 Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic
#5 Aleksander Emelianenko
#6 Josh "The Babyface Assassin" Barnett
#7 Frank Mir
#8 Mark Hunt
#9 Andrei "Pitbull" Arlovski
#10 Antonio "Junior" Silva
Man, i was close to quote you for the worst HW ranking of all time !!
But since it is the jimmypockets's ranking i will tell him that he have the worst HW ranking that i ever saw since the beginning of time !!
40ouncetofreedom
2/20/08 8:42:39PM
Posted by tuvok500
Posted by xxMALICExx
Posted by jimmypockets
That is ridiculous. Fedor beat Nog twice. Not to mention the fact that in order to be the best you have to beat the best. Nogueira himself probably doesn't think of himself as #1. You need to stay off the Elmer's.
Top 5 Heavyweights- 1) Fedor Emelianenko, 2) Randy Couture 3) Big Nog 4) Josh Barnett 5) Frank Mir (If in shape)
Dude, This is your top ten HW list. Not even close to the list above. Lesnar #3....C'Mon. And Mir #7, who just beat your #3......C'Mon. Nogueira is not even on the list for cryin' out loud.
#1 Fedor Emelianenko
#2 Randy "The Natural " Couture
#3 Brock Lesnar
#4 Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic
#5 Aleksander Emelianenko
#6 Josh "The Babyface Assassin" Barnett
#7 Frank Mir
#8 Mark Hunt
#9 Andrei "Pitbull" Arlovski
#10 Antonio "Junior" Silva
Man, i was close to quote you for the worst HW ranking of all time !!
But since it is the jimmypockets's ranking i will tell him that he have the worst HW ranking that i ever saw since the beginning of time !!
Someone should tell him that he forgot Kimbo on his list of HW's
tomp6581
3/3/08 5:59:05AM
Posted by xxMALICExx
Nogs last 5 fights:
Sylvia -- Top 10 HW
Herring -- Legit HW
Barnett -- Top 10 HW
Barnett -- "
Werdum -- Legit HW
Fedors last 5 fights:
Hong Man Choi -- Green HW
Lindland -- Top 10 MW
Hunt -- HW
Coleman -- Old HW
Martins -- Green HW
Who's been fighting top competition lately? My vote goes to NOG.
Mir has always given full respect to his fellow fighters. His point is valid. Earning the right to be called the best is a hard road. But it doesn't stop there. If you want to remain "The Best", you can't simply continue to fight. You must continue to fight top competition. This is why I see Nogueira as #1.
Very logical argument, and I agree I supose. But the next question is....
If someone is the numer 1 in the world due to recent fighting activity. Does that make them the best?
The Number one guy in the UFC was absolutley destroyed by Fedor twice. Dominated. Fedor inactivity is a bad reflection on his decisons (to sign for m-1) and the promoters (who like freakshows ie HMC & Zulu) but it isnt a bad reflection on his fighting ability.
I agree he shouldnt be ranked number 1 now, but that doesnt mean he isnt still the best.
mrsmiley
3/3/08 2:54:12PM
I still think Choi would take Tim Sylvia.
But anyhow,I still consider Fedor number one heavy-weight as of now.
I'm not saying this of everyone,but it does seem like their are a select few,who automaticaly count Fedor out because he's not in the UFC.I guess you could see this arguement the reverse way as well,but it seems like their are people out their that just blindly follow whatever Dana White and the brass at Zuffa says,without ever thinking for themselves.Like I've stated before,i'm not saying this of everyone,because quite a few people make good points against ranking fedor #1.
To me,Dana's thoughts were very clear after Nog beat Slyvia,and I don't see how anyone disputing Fedor's rank thought different.
But anyhow,I still consider Fedor number one heavy-weight as of now.
I'm not saying this of everyone,but it does seem like their are a select few,who automaticaly count Fedor out because he's not in the UFC.I guess you could see this arguement the reverse way as well,but it seems like their are people out their that just blindly follow whatever Dana White and the brass at Zuffa says,without ever thinking for themselves.Like I've stated before,i'm not saying this of everyone,because quite a few people make good points against ranking fedor #1.
To me,Dana's thoughts were very clear after Nog beat Slyvia,and I don't see how anyone disputing Fedor's rank thought different.
Image Attachment(s):
telnights
3/3/08 6:59:56PM
I find it funny how most peoples logic works. Fedor hasn't fought a top 10 fighter since 2005. Thats 3 years without fighting any top fighters. Some of you are basicly saying because he beat Nog 2 times over 4 years ago means he should be ranked above Nog. If we were to use that same logic than Liddell should be a in the top 2 or 3 of HWs. Because he not only beat Randy twice but he did so by KO both times. A lot changes is 4 years and Nog has shown he is a true fighter by always fighting the best fighters out there and not running from the real fights. Fedor on the other hand has not he has done nothing but avoid the tough fights. Not joining the UFC has nothing to do with it there were chances for him to take on top fighters long before the UFC even came in to the picture.
cmill21
3/3/08 7:13:50PM
Posted by telnights
I find it funny how most peoples logic works. Fedor hasn't fought a top 10 fighter since 2005. Thats 3 years without fighting any top fighters. Some of you are basicly saying because he beat Nog 2 times over 4 years ago means he should be ranked above Nog. If we were to use that same logic than Liddell should be a in the top 2 or 3 of HWs. Because he not only beat Randy twice but he did so by KO both times. A lot changes is 4 years and Nog has shown he is a true fighter by always fighting the best fighters out there and not running from the real fights. Fedor on the other hand has not he has done nothing but avoid the tough fights. Not joining the UFC has nothing to do with it there were chances for him to take on top fighters long before the UFC even came in to the picture.
Why would that make chuck ranked that high? Randy's not even fighting anymore...I do agree that Fedor should fight better guys then Choi, and what I'm hearing is he will be gone from M-1(to Dream more than likely) pretty soon here, and we should see some good tilts with Fedor in there.
mrsmiley
3/3/08 7:30:39PM
Posted by telnights
I find it funny how most peoples logic works. Fedor hasn't fought a top 10 fighter since 2005. Thats 3 years without fighting any top fighters. Some of you are basicly saying because he beat Nog 2 times over 4 years ago means he should be ranked above Nog. If we were to use that same logic than Liddell should be a in the top 2 or 3 of HWs. Because he not only beat Randy twice but he did so by KO both times. A lot changes is 4 years and Nog has shown he is a true fighter by always fighting the best fighters out there and not running from the real fights. Fedor on the other hand has not he has done nothing but avoid the tough fights. Not joining the UFC has nothing to do with it there were chances for him to take on top fighters long before the UFC even came in to the picture.
For the most part I agree with you on all that.Though I don't hear people claiming Fedor is at the top of Matt Lindlands weight class or in the top ten just because he beat him.As for Fedors opponets,yes I do believe he should be fighting higher tier competition. i don't think anyone is disputing that.
However,I don't see anything being easy about taking on some one like Matt Lindland or Choi.If anything, Fedor had more to lose if either one of those guys would have came in their and beat him,rather than if he had lost to some one like Couture or Slyvia.Losing to a guy below your weight class,or to a freak show would be tough for the career of the guy who is considered number one in the eyes of a lot of people.
I would rank Nog higher than Fedor right now just because he is active and has accomplished more since fighting Fedor.He is the UFC heavy weight champion.He deserves to be ranked number one.
But I still believe Fedor would take Nog if they fought again.Who's better,and who is currenlty accomplishing more are just some of the factors that should go into rankings,imo.They're for a while a lot of mags and sites had CC ranked above Nog despite Nog having a victory over CC.
Why?
CC was accomplishing more at the time.He had just won the OWGP and Nog was coming off a loss to Barnett.That doesn't mean CC would have beat Nog had they fought again.Just that CC had accomplished more for that time period than Nog.
telnights
3/3/08 10:34:21PM
Posted by cmill21
Why would that make chuck ranked that high? Randy's not even fighting anymore...I do agree that Fedor should fight better guys then Choi, and what I'm hearing is he will be gone from M-1(to Dream more than likely) pretty soon here, and we should see some good tilts with Fedor in there.
You really didn't see my point. Why should Fedor be ranked so high? Hell Chuck has beat better fighters at LHW than Fedor has at HW in the past 3 years. He knocked out the fighter most people have ranked 2nd or 3rd at HW twice. Now to make this clear not saying Chuck should even be ranked as a HW but point is if your going to rank Fedor as #1 because he beat nog 4 years ago might as well rank Chuck up there to. Its like Fedor's fans (I was one) keep defending him when truth is you shouldnt have to.
Aether
5/14/08 2:46:02PM
ok guys, list all of the fighters currently fighting that you believe can beat fedor and why. GO.
I'm pretty sure that not a single person is going to come up to a valid response to that. Pretty much the only person anyone considers to even have a remote chance of doing so is randy. You're going to rank nogueira ahead of fedor? How does that make sense? We're not talking about 2 guys who had a competitive match, we're talking about one guy absolutely and completely dominating the other guy _ON THE GROUND_ where he is considered to be the BEST IN THE WORLD.... TWICE. He didn't beat him, he demolished him and he did it at his own game. Who cares if it happened 3 years ago or 4? Has he shown any signs of his skill decreasing in his recent fights, regardless of who they are against? Not as far as I can see, whereas nogueira has looked awful in his wins against herring and sylvia.
Did matt lindland weigh 185 pounds in their fight? or did he weigh like 5 pounds less than fedor? We're talking about a guy who walks around at around 195+ to begin with. Middleweights don't weight 185 pounds naturally, they cut weight. Heavyweights do not. So did the olympic wrestler and long ranked top 10 middleweight forget how to fight because he gained like 15 pounds of muscle? Use your heads. I'm so sick of hearing people brush the matt lindland fight aside like it doesn't count. I guess BJ Penn's fights against hughes and GSP don't count either guys, he usually fights at lightweight. Any of Dan Henderson's losses at 205 also don't count, since he is a natural 185er. Professional fighters magically forget how to fight when they add 10-15 pounds of muscle.
Nevermind the fact that Mark Hunt was easily a top 10 heavyweight when he fought fedor, top15 at the absolute least, and I challenge you to name 10 guys who would beat him when he was competing in PRIDE.
I'd like you guys also to tell me how well you think the rest of the top10 heavyweights would do against hong man choi. He might be new to MMA but he is a legit kickboxer with wins over guys like mighty mo and semmy schilt, a dude who holds 5 k-1 titles across 2 divisions and a former king of pancrase. But I guess he's just a big freakshow with no skill. His lack of knowledge of jiu-jitsu must make everyone impervious to his trikes and insane reach advantage. Honestly I'm pretty sure that hong man choi would be able to beat several of the heavyweights currently ranked in the top 10. I have a really hard time believing tim sylvia would be able to deal with him.
I guess this line of logic can work any way that you want it to. Fedor's win against lindland doesn't count because lindland is naturally smaller than him, and his win against choi also doesn't count because choi is a freakshow (notice that fedor's size disadvantage isn't considered, maintaining a consistent point of view would be far too logical.) So which is it? lindland gets a pass because he's smaller but no one gives a shit that choi has a massive size advantage?
We're talking about a guy who is completely undefeated except for a stoppage due to cut from an illegal blow, a guy who not only beat everyone he fought but completely outclassed them all and in the case of his most dangerous competition he beat them at their own game. Everyone said he would have to stand to beat Nog, he took him to the ground and beat him mercilessly without ever even coming close to getting caught in a submission. Twice. He fought CroCop on his feet when everyone said he would have to take it to the ground. Crocop landed a few flurries here and there but they were pretty much all lacking their normal power because fedor had him back-pedaling the entire fight.
Nog has looked worse than he ever has in his UFC appearances and he's the champ. Fedor has looked very much the same as ever. Yeah, he's had a couple of less than stellar matchups with zulu and coleman, but Hunt was top10, Lindland is an olympic silver medalist and make all the excuses you want, he didn't have to gain that much weight, fighters jump weight classes all of the time. Now he's scheduled to fight tim sylvia, and it's hilarious because all anyone says is "he hasn't fought top guys" and when he gets a match against a top guy everyone acts like it's just another joke fight.
Are you people looking for him to armbar God? Holy shit. Give the guy a break.
I'm pretty sure that it really wouldn't matter if he did armbar god, someone would probably point out that god's shoelaces were untied and fedor's hand rested on top of the ropes which allowed him to get a reversal on god's takedown resulting in the armbar victory, so he really didn't beat him. God normally fights at LHW so... you know. He needs stiffer competition.
I'm pretty sure that not a single person is going to come up to a valid response to that. Pretty much the only person anyone considers to even have a remote chance of doing so is randy. You're going to rank nogueira ahead of fedor? How does that make sense? We're not talking about 2 guys who had a competitive match, we're talking about one guy absolutely and completely dominating the other guy _ON THE GROUND_ where he is considered to be the BEST IN THE WORLD.... TWICE. He didn't beat him, he demolished him and he did it at his own game. Who cares if it happened 3 years ago or 4? Has he shown any signs of his skill decreasing in his recent fights, regardless of who they are against? Not as far as I can see, whereas nogueira has looked awful in his wins against herring and sylvia.
Did matt lindland weigh 185 pounds in their fight? or did he weigh like 5 pounds less than fedor? We're talking about a guy who walks around at around 195+ to begin with. Middleweights don't weight 185 pounds naturally, they cut weight. Heavyweights do not. So did the olympic wrestler and long ranked top 10 middleweight forget how to fight because he gained like 15 pounds of muscle? Use your heads. I'm so sick of hearing people brush the matt lindland fight aside like it doesn't count. I guess BJ Penn's fights against hughes and GSP don't count either guys, he usually fights at lightweight. Any of Dan Henderson's losses at 205 also don't count, since he is a natural 185er. Professional fighters magically forget how to fight when they add 10-15 pounds of muscle.
Nevermind the fact that Mark Hunt was easily a top 10 heavyweight when he fought fedor, top15 at the absolute least, and I challenge you to name 10 guys who would beat him when he was competing in PRIDE.
I'd like you guys also to tell me how well you think the rest of the top10 heavyweights would do against hong man choi. He might be new to MMA but he is a legit kickboxer with wins over guys like mighty mo and semmy schilt, a dude who holds 5 k-1 titles across 2 divisions and a former king of pancrase. But I guess he's just a big freakshow with no skill. His lack of knowledge of jiu-jitsu must make everyone impervious to his trikes and insane reach advantage. Honestly I'm pretty sure that hong man choi would be able to beat several of the heavyweights currently ranked in the top 10. I have a really hard time believing tim sylvia would be able to deal with him.
I guess this line of logic can work any way that you want it to. Fedor's win against lindland doesn't count because lindland is naturally smaller than him, and his win against choi also doesn't count because choi is a freakshow (notice that fedor's size disadvantage isn't considered, maintaining a consistent point of view would be far too logical.) So which is it? lindland gets a pass because he's smaller but no one gives a shit that choi has a massive size advantage?
We're talking about a guy who is completely undefeated except for a stoppage due to cut from an illegal blow, a guy who not only beat everyone he fought but completely outclassed them all and in the case of his most dangerous competition he beat them at their own game. Everyone said he would have to stand to beat Nog, he took him to the ground and beat him mercilessly without ever even coming close to getting caught in a submission. Twice. He fought CroCop on his feet when everyone said he would have to take it to the ground. Crocop landed a few flurries here and there but they were pretty much all lacking their normal power because fedor had him back-pedaling the entire fight.
Nog has looked worse than he ever has in his UFC appearances and he's the champ. Fedor has looked very much the same as ever. Yeah, he's had a couple of less than stellar matchups with zulu and coleman, but Hunt was top10, Lindland is an olympic silver medalist and make all the excuses you want, he didn't have to gain that much weight, fighters jump weight classes all of the time. Now he's scheduled to fight tim sylvia, and it's hilarious because all anyone says is "he hasn't fought top guys" and when he gets a match against a top guy everyone acts like it's just another joke fight.
Are you people looking for him to armbar God? Holy shit. Give the guy a break.
I'm pretty sure that it really wouldn't matter if he did armbar god, someone would probably point out that god's shoelaces were untied and fedor's hand rested on top of the ropes which allowed him to get a reversal on god's takedown resulting in the armbar victory, so he really didn't beat him. God normally fights at LHW so... you know. He needs stiffer competition.
40ouncetofreedom
5/14/08 3:01:34PM
I think Tim,Randy,and Barnett could beat Fedor.Im actaully picking Tim to win...and im not a Sylvia fan.
telnights
5/14/08 3:19:37PM
Posted by xxMALICExx
Nogs last 5 fights:
Sylvia -- Top 10 HW
Herring -- Legit HW
Barnett -- Top 10 HW
Barnett -- "
Werdum -- Legit HW
Fedors last 5 fights:
Hong Man Choi -- Green HW
Lindland -- Top 10 MW
Hunt -- HW
Coleman -- Old HW
Martins -- Green HW
Who's been fighting top competition lately? My vote goes to NOG.
Mir has always given full respect to his fellow fighters. His point is valid. Earning the right to be called the best is a hard road. But it doesn't stop there. If you want to remain "The Best", you can't simply continue to fight. You must continue to fight top competition. This is why I see Nogueira as #1.
100% I think to be the #1 HW you have to be fighting top level HWs. I give Fedor his respect he has done more at HW then anyone ever has but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't fought anyone worth talking about in 3 years. He is still number one on my all time list but not on my active HW rankings. To reply to Aether post.
I think there are a few fighters at HW that could be Fedor in a cage and a few that could beat him in a ring. The cage breaks a lot of great ring fighters down. So under UFC rules and in a cage I think you would see a Fedor out of his element.
Cage
Randy
Nog(maybe now that he is starting to change his style for the cage)
Vera
Tim
Barnett
Arlovski
Ring
Barnett
Tim
Vera
Aether
5/14/08 5:11:56PM
Junior sambo champ arlovski would beat world sambo champ? Give me a break. You can list names but you can't explain to me what aspect of their game would beat fedor. I said list names and give reasons. Arlovski is a lower level practitioner of the same fighting style as fedor, I don't see how you could think that he would possibly have a chance after his last 3 performances. Vera? Nog? I can't believe what I'm hearing.
You will sit here and say fedor hasn't fought top 10 and follow it up by telling me that brandon vera who has ONE win in his entire career against a top10 fighter in the one-dimensional frank mir who then followed it up with a year long absence, and an incredibly unimpressive loss against sylvia would beat him.
Nogueira?!?! ROFL. give me a BREAK. Nog has looked worse in his last two fights than he ever has in his career, he got absolutely dominated by fedor TWICE but third time's a charm I guess? Changing his style for the cage? In what way?
40 ounces came up with the only reasonable responses and even that is taking some liberties. Couture who he obviously isn't able to fight and who anyone would concede is obviously the best fight possible at HW right now (which essentially validates my point, because the reason this fight is so sought after is because virtually everyone realizes that in terms of skill fedor and couture are #1 and #2), and barnett who I agree is probably one of the only other HWs who could be considered, and even though he *might* be able to beat fedor, I doubt that you can tell me that you believe that
a: he would win against fedor most of the time if they fought on multiple occasions
and
b: that he is the better all-around fighter.
Fedor has better submissions, and the edge that barnett has over most people as a result of practicing shoot-wrestling instead of traditional submission fighting styles like jiu-jitsu is essentially nullified by the fact that fedor is the undisputed world master of sambo, which focuses on many of the same techniques (namely leglocks) and Fedor is better at them. Even though I see barnett as his second biggest challenge next to couture, I don't see him as having a very good chance of winning either. On the feet Fedor has the advantage, Barnett's standup is pretty open and awkward, and once it hits the ground it's a matter of the best Sambo practitioner in the world fighting one of the best shoot-fighters.
As far as tim sylvia is concerned I guess that matter will be laid to rest shortly. Again he has a *chance* to beat fedor, anyone has a chance to win a fight, but skill-wise there just isn't anything that tim is better at than him. Tim's main tactics involve jabbing people to keep them at a distance and attempting to follow up for a KO or pushing people up against the fence and holding them there while doing just enough dirty boxing not to get separated. We've already seen fedor deal with much longer reach advantages in semmy schilt and choi, two excellent kickboxers who know how to use their reach well, and his sambo background means that tim trying to bodylock him and hold him against the ropes is just going to result in him getting taken down and once it hits the ground there's almost no chance of tim winning. I don't see any way for tim to win this other than knocking him out standing up, and again, we have seen him outstrike much better strikers than sylvia. The fact that it is taking place in a ring as opposed to a cage makes things even worse for tim, he's in fedor's world.
Look you can spout off names of the topp 5 guys or so and all of them will always have a chance against the other guys ranked just above them, but I doubt that you can realistically break down what aspect of those fighter's games would work to exploit holes in Fedor's game, or that you can tell me logically speaking that you believe barnett or sylvia would win this matchup the majority of the time.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how sylvia, barnett, or anyone else's strengths would put them in your mind as the favourite against fedor. I'm not talking about "could beat him" I'm talking about "would beat him most of the time" because in my mind ranking is based on skill not just on who beat who. I don't think you throw someone like matt serra at #1 just because he beat GSP and I don't think you throw nogueira ahead of fedor automatically because of the fact that nog fought sylvia and fedor fought choi. Fedor is still the better fighter and deserves to be ranked above him.
Couture is the only person who I can see a conceivable argument for a win, and in a ring I think a lot of what makes randy great flies out the window. If they fought in a cage I think it could be a close fight, if they fought in a ring I doubt that randy would be able to do much, his main tactic is getting into a greco-roman clinch, controlling the opponent on the cage, and throwing short elbows from within the clinch.
Come up with a real explanation of why any of the heavyweights you listed should be considered the favourite going into a fight against fedor and you'll have a valid argument. Just listing names isn't good enough. If you can't think of a fighter who you believe should be considered the FAVOURITE to win a fight against fedor then you can't tell me he isn't #1. It's as simple as that. Travis lutter had a good chance to submit rich franklin and anderson silva too, but it didn't make him the favourite against them, and it doesn't make him ranked higher than them. The same applies here. Come up with a fighter that you believe would win 6 times out of 10 and a reason why and then you have a valid argument.
You will sit here and say fedor hasn't fought top 10 and follow it up by telling me that brandon vera who has ONE win in his entire career against a top10 fighter in the one-dimensional frank mir who then followed it up with a year long absence, and an incredibly unimpressive loss against sylvia would beat him.
Nogueira?!?! ROFL. give me a BREAK. Nog has looked worse in his last two fights than he ever has in his career, he got absolutely dominated by fedor TWICE but third time's a charm I guess? Changing his style for the cage? In what way?
40 ounces came up with the only reasonable responses and even that is taking some liberties. Couture who he obviously isn't able to fight and who anyone would concede is obviously the best fight possible at HW right now (which essentially validates my point, because the reason this fight is so sought after is because virtually everyone realizes that in terms of skill fedor and couture are #1 and #2), and barnett who I agree is probably one of the only other HWs who could be considered, and even though he *might* be able to beat fedor, I doubt that you can tell me that you believe that
a: he would win against fedor most of the time if they fought on multiple occasions
and
b: that he is the better all-around fighter.
Fedor has better submissions, and the edge that barnett has over most people as a result of practicing shoot-wrestling instead of traditional submission fighting styles like jiu-jitsu is essentially nullified by the fact that fedor is the undisputed world master of sambo, which focuses on many of the same techniques (namely leglocks) and Fedor is better at them. Even though I see barnett as his second biggest challenge next to couture, I don't see him as having a very good chance of winning either. On the feet Fedor has the advantage, Barnett's standup is pretty open and awkward, and once it hits the ground it's a matter of the best Sambo practitioner in the world fighting one of the best shoot-fighters.
As far as tim sylvia is concerned I guess that matter will be laid to rest shortly. Again he has a *chance* to beat fedor, anyone has a chance to win a fight, but skill-wise there just isn't anything that tim is better at than him. Tim's main tactics involve jabbing people to keep them at a distance and attempting to follow up for a KO or pushing people up against the fence and holding them there while doing just enough dirty boxing not to get separated. We've already seen fedor deal with much longer reach advantages in semmy schilt and choi, two excellent kickboxers who know how to use their reach well, and his sambo background means that tim trying to bodylock him and hold him against the ropes is just going to result in him getting taken down and once it hits the ground there's almost no chance of tim winning. I don't see any way for tim to win this other than knocking him out standing up, and again, we have seen him outstrike much better strikers than sylvia. The fact that it is taking place in a ring as opposed to a cage makes things even worse for tim, he's in fedor's world.
Look you can spout off names of the topp 5 guys or so and all of them will always have a chance against the other guys ranked just above them, but I doubt that you can realistically break down what aspect of those fighter's games would work to exploit holes in Fedor's game, or that you can tell me logically speaking that you believe barnett or sylvia would win this matchup the majority of the time.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how sylvia, barnett, or anyone else's strengths would put them in your mind as the favourite against fedor. I'm not talking about "could beat him" I'm talking about "would beat him most of the time" because in my mind ranking is based on skill not just on who beat who. I don't think you throw someone like matt serra at #1 just because he beat GSP and I don't think you throw nogueira ahead of fedor automatically because of the fact that nog fought sylvia and fedor fought choi. Fedor is still the better fighter and deserves to be ranked above him.
Couture is the only person who I can see a conceivable argument for a win, and in a ring I think a lot of what makes randy great flies out the window. If they fought in a cage I think it could be a close fight, if they fought in a ring I doubt that randy would be able to do much, his main tactic is getting into a greco-roman clinch, controlling the opponent on the cage, and throwing short elbows from within the clinch.
Come up with a real explanation of why any of the heavyweights you listed should be considered the favourite going into a fight against fedor and you'll have a valid argument. Just listing names isn't good enough. If you can't think of a fighter who you believe should be considered the FAVOURITE to win a fight against fedor then you can't tell me he isn't #1. It's as simple as that. Travis lutter had a good chance to submit rich franklin and anderson silva too, but it didn't make him the favourite against them, and it doesn't make him ranked higher than them. The same applies here. Come up with a fighter that you believe would win 6 times out of 10 and a reason why and then you have a valid argument.
Pookie
5/14/08 5:16:25PM
pace yourself my friend, i can only prop so much.
Aether
5/14/08 5:32:26PM
I should clarify here that rankings in my mind rankings should be based off of skill, obviously there's a limit to how inactive a fighter can be before that is called into question, I just don't think fedor's competition have been bad enough, or that the performances he put in against them have shown any faltering in his skill level to warrant that drop.
If you believe that rankings should simply be based on who holds the belts or not then the point is moot because we're arguing apples and oranges. My view of rankings is such that the most skilled fighter, ie: the fighter that would be considered the favourite heading into any given fight should be the highest ranked fighter, regardless of who he has fought.
Fighters like Jake shields are good examples of this. Shields hasn't really fought anyone other than yushin okami a couple of years ago and sakurai something like 5 or 6 years ago. Despite the fact that he isn't in the UFC fighting top10 guys most people who have seen him fight realize that his skill level is well above the level that he's fighting at, and more often than not I see him on people's top 10, rightly so in my mind. He may not be fighting top10 guys, but that doesn't automatically mean that his skill level as a fighter isn't in that range.
If you believe that rankings should simply be based on who holds the belts or not then the point is moot because we're arguing apples and oranges. My view of rankings is such that the most skilled fighter, ie: the fighter that would be considered the favourite heading into any given fight should be the highest ranked fighter, regardless of who he has fought.
Fighters like Jake shields are good examples of this. Shields hasn't really fought anyone other than yushin okami a couple of years ago and sakurai something like 5 or 6 years ago. Despite the fact that he isn't in the UFC fighting top10 guys most people who have seen him fight realize that his skill level is well above the level that he's fighting at, and more often than not I see him on people's top 10, rightly so in my mind. He may not be fighting top10 guys, but that doesn't automatically mean that his skill level as a fighter isn't in that range.
40ouncetofreedom
5/14/08 5:42:50PM
Posted by Aether
Junior sambo champ arlovski would beat world sambo champ? Give me a break. You can list names but you can't explain to me what aspect of their game would beat fedor. I said list names and give reasons. Arlovski is a lower level practitioner of the same fighting style as fedor, I don't see how you could think that he would possibly have a chance after his last 3 performances. Vera? Nog? I can't believe what I'm hearing.
You will sit here and say fedor hasn't fought top 10 and follow it up by telling me that brandon vera who has ONE win in his entire career against a top10 fighter in the one-dimensional frank mir who then followed it up with a year long absence, and an incredibly unimpressive loss against sylvia would beat him.
Nogueira?!?! ROFL. give me a BREAK. Nog has looked worse in his last two fights than he ever has in his career, he got absolutely dominated by fedor TWICE but third time's a charm I guess? Changing his style for the cage? In what way?
40 ounces came up with the only reasonable responses and even that is taking some liberties. Couture who he obviously isn't able to fight and who anyone would concede is obviously the best fight possible at HW right now (which essentially validates my point, because the reason this fight is so sought after is because virtually everyone realizes that in terms of skill fedor and couture are #1 and #2), and barnett who I agree is probably one of the only other HWs who could be considered, and even though he *might* be able to beat fedor, I doubt that you can tell me that you believe that
a: he would win against fedor most of the time if they fought on multiple occasions
and
b: that he is the better all-around fighter.
Fedor has better submissions, and the edge that barnett has over most people as a result of practicing shoot-wrestling instead of traditional submission fighting styles like jiu-jitsu is essentially nullified by the fact that fedor is the undisputed world master of sambo, which focuses on many of the same techniques (namely leglocks) and Fedor is better at them. Even though I see barnett as his second biggest challenge next to couture, I don't see him as having a very good chance of winning either. On the feet Fedor has the advantage, Barnett's standup is pretty open and awkward, and once it hits the ground it's a matter of the best Sambo practitioner in the world fighting one of the best shoot-fighters.
As far as tim sylvia is concerned I guess that matter will be laid to rest shortly. Again he has a *chance* to beat fedor, anyone has a chance to win a fight, but skill-wise there just isn't anything that tim is better at than him. Tim's main tactics involve jabbing people to keep them at a distance and attempting to follow up for a KO or pushing people up against the fence and holding them there while doing just enough dirty boxing not to get separated. We've already seen fedor deal with much longer reach advantages in semmy schilt and choi, two excellent kickboxers who know how to use their reach well, and his sambo background means that tim trying to bodylock him and hold him against the ropes is just going to result in him getting taken down and once it hits the ground there's almost no chance of tim winning. I don't see any way for tim to win this other than knocking him out standing up, and again, we have seen him outstrike much better strikers than sylvia. The fact that it is taking place in a ring as opposed to a cage makes things even worse for tim, he's in fedor's world.
Look you can spout off names of the topp 5 guys or so and all of them will always have a chance against the other guys ranked just above them, but I doubt that you can realistically break down what aspect of those fighter's games would work to exploit holes in Fedor's game, or that you can tell me logically speaking that you believe barnett or sylvia would win this matchup the majority of the time.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how sylvia, barnett, or anyone else's strengths would put them in your mind as the favourite against fedor. I'm not talking about "could beat him" I'm talking about "would beat him most of the time" because in my mind ranking is based on skill not just on who beat who. I don't think you throw someone like matt serra at #1 just because he beat GSP and I don't think you throw nogueira ahead of fedor automatically because of the fact that nog fought sylvia and fedor fought choi. Fedor is still the better fighter and deserves to be ranked above him.
Couture is the only person who I can see a conceivable argument for a win, and in a ring I think a lot of what makes randy great flies out the window. If they fought in a cage I think it could be a close fight, if they fought in a ring I doubt that randy would be able to do much, his main tactic is getting into a greco-roman clinch, controlling the opponent on the cage, and throwing short elbows from within the clinch.
Come up with a real explanation of why any of the heavyweights you listed should be considered the favourite going into a fight against fedor and you'll have a valid argument. Just listing names isn't good enough. If you can't think of a fighter who you believe should be considered the FAVOURITE to win a fight against fedor then you can't tell me he isn't #1. It's as simple as that. Travis lutter had a good chance to submit rich franklin and anderson silva too, but it didn't make him the favourite against them, and it doesn't make him ranked higher than them. The same applies here. Come up with a fighter that you believe would win 6 times out of 10 and a reason why and then you have a valid argument.
Yeah i mean its hard to argue that.Randy is the master gameplaner and if or what Fedors' weakness is Randy could be the one to expose it.I guess im picturing the Sylvia fight as you said Tim Jabbing and probably trying to lay on him against the ropes/cage im not sure what their fighting in.While i highly doubt Tim will go for a takedown, But seeing Matt Lindland have the strength to have Fedor in that situation to take him down or lay on him until he grabbed the rope. i dont see why tim wouldnt be strong enough to do the same..If Tim can keep it up standing i think he'll eek out the UD...But im sure itll be like the NOG fight where hes winning the stand-up and then gets taken and Subbed just like he has agasint other good JJ/ground guys i see its only a 3 round fight and Tim if hes smart wont let it go down like the Nog fight.Yes,Im sure you could Rebuttal with saying Fedor struck with some of the best strikers out there CC,Schlit,Hunt,Choi etc and with their and size height advantages and thats a fact but that doesnt mean he is going to do the same with Tim but its a fair comparison..Either way should be a good fight..and if Tim wins it'll def shake some shit up..Randy will look like an ass for not taking the nog fight..Cause i mean if Tim beats Fedor why would randy still want that fight...And didnt Tim still have a fight left on his UFC contract?? i thought i read that somewhere but i could be wrong.
Aether
5/15/08 12:42:07AM
he did have a fight left on his contract, but he was released from it because he's not a very popular fighter and they probably didn't want to sign him back on so why bother making him stay for one more fight. It's different with randty because he's actually popular and held the title when he left.
Again I agree if anyone can do it it's randy, he is a master gameplanner., and he does have the strangth and wrestling ability to out-wrestle him, but the question is in a ring what does he do with that wrestling? In a cage he can push people against the fence but with a ring that becomes much more difficult, and fedor is so good at pulling off submissions from his back that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to take him down. His armbars against choi and coleman (who is actually probably a better straight wrestler than randy) were spectacular. If anyone can do it is it probably randy, but I think his chances decrease a lot if the fight takes place in a ring.
Again I agree if anyone can do it it's randy, he is a master gameplanner., and he does have the strangth and wrestling ability to out-wrestle him, but the question is in a ring what does he do with that wrestling? In a cage he can push people against the fence but with a ring that becomes much more difficult, and fedor is so good at pulling off submissions from his back that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to take him down. His armbars against choi and coleman (who is actually probably a better straight wrestler than randy) were spectacular. If anyone can do it is it probably randy, but I think his chances decrease a lot if the fight takes place in a ring.
MMAcca
5/15/08 12:48:09AM
Posted by xxMALICExx
Nogs last 5 fights:
Sylvia -- Top 10 HW
Herring -- Legit HW
Barnett -- Top 10 HW
Barnett -- "
Werdum -- Legit HW
Fedors last 5 fights:
Hong Man Choi -- Green HW
Lindland -- Top 10 MW
Hunt -- HW
Coleman -- Old HW
Martins -- Green HW
Who's been fighting top competition lately? My vote goes to NOG.
Mir has always given full respect to his fellow fighters. His point is valid. Earning the right to be called the best is a hard road. But it doesn't stop there. If you want to remain "The Best", you can't simply continue to fight. You must continue to fight top competition. This is why I see Nogueira as #1.
but........