The man who could dethrone St.Peirre

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ajp10k
5/20/11 7:42:21PM
This man could out match George St.Peirre in Wrestling. He is a Olypmic level wrestler also a ADCC level grappler. Still young in his life at age 26, also in the MMA world. He holds a recored of 8-0 and the bellator Welterweight Champion. Ben Askren. Thoughts?
SpiderSilva
5/20/11 8:00:08PM
come on how many wrestlers does he have to dominate? GSP would beat him the same way he did all the others at their weakest point their stand up. its clear its almost impossible to take him down maybe they will meet when GSP loses a step. but for some reason i think he is smart enough not to wait around that long. GSP would win by UD
Budgellism
5/20/11 8:27:10PM
Askren is going to be really good some day and by that time GSP will probably be done. As of now Askren would probably get worked on his feet.
ajp10k
5/20/11 8:46:35PM
Askren can takedown GSP. If koscheck can, Aksren can.
prozacnation1978
5/20/11 8:46:40PM
Don't make me laugh
warglory
5/20/11 8:52:02PM

Posted by ajp10k

Askren can takedown GSP. If koscheck can, Aksren can.



Uh, Koscheck doesn't have a very good reputation for being able to take GSP down.
Budgellism
5/20/11 8:56:55PM

Posted by ajp10k

Askren can takedown GSP. If koscheck can, Aksren can.



A lot of people can apparently take gsp down, in fact I've had a lot of arguments with people about that and it's not always the case. And even if he can take him down that doesn't mean he'll stay there. Pretty sure gsp beat koscheck pretty dominately.
UFC_Fanatic
5/20/11 9:39:27PM

Posted by ajp10k

Askren can takedown GSP. If koscheck can, Aksren can.



I actually do believe that in two or three years, Askren might improve enough to defeat GSP. As of right now, though I do believe that Askren is a better pure wrestler than GSP is, granted, as we all know, GSP never had an actual wrestling background, it's just something he picked up along the way of developing his MMA game. Here's the reason why, imo, Askren would really have trouble taking GSP down at this point in his career, and it has nothing to do with GSP being too good with TDD, and GSP is on top of the world, and all that stuff you normally hear, it's because of how early in his MMA career it is with Askren right now. If you watch his fights, yes, his wrestling is unbelievable, and his tenacity and never give up attitude when he shoots on someone and they defend the initial attempt, yet he keeps driving forward until he succeeds, is very impressive. Equally impressive is his ability to seemingly always find some form of funky looking round-about way of ending up in a dominant position, as well as how active he is on top, always moving around and always peppering them a little bit then all of a sudden he moves to another position, peppers them a little bit more, then repeats, always keeping this opponents on their toes. Now that is what you see when you're just watching his fights relatively casually as a fan imo.

Now here is what you see if you watch his fights with a more objective and analytical MMA fan's perspective: You see a VERY talented wrestler, who, like all wrestlers in the beginning of their MMA career, is still trying to make the necessary adjustments to translate their style of wrestling into the MMA world. A lot of people see wrestling credentials and just say, hey, this dude is going to be taking EVERYONE down and pounding on them while they lie helplessly on their backs. Then you see his first few fights against guys with pretty good TDD, and he struggles to take them down and then you just think, "well maybe he wasn't as good a wrestler as we thought he was". Fast forward about a year or two, and this guy is doing exactly what he was supposed to have been able to do when he first started and he is putting people on their backs and pounding them into the canvas. Why? Because he learned how to adapt his wrestling into the MMA world.

That is exactly why, at this point, Askren would have trouble putting GSP on his back. With his messed up and unorthodox style of wrestling, he will be damn near unstoppable once he learns how to make that style effective in MMA. He is very intelligent, and uses that to fuel his creativity when trying to take people down, always thinking and always trying things that no one has ever seen before once he gets a hold of a guy, and its that kind of creative wrestling that will give people a lot of problems imo. His wrestling is comparable to Machida's and probably even more so, Jardine's striking. It's so unorthodox and so weird looking that it's hard to adjust to, and it throws a lot of people off, and that's the kind of guy that could pose problems for GSP in the future. You've got to try and find a way to throw GSP for a loop and take away his confidence in the fact that he is always in control of the nature of the fight. It would be interesting to see how GSP adjusts to that kind of situation.

Anyway, that is my take on Askren. Long winded I know, but I wanted to try and be as in-depth as possible in conveying my thoughts in a way that isn't confusing. I do agree with what someone said earlier, and I to believe that some day down the road, Askren is going to be a phenomenal fighter. Right now though, he is just putting together all the pieces of the puzzle to his MMA game.
sparky
5/20/11 10:25:00PM
GSP will dominant Askren just a bad match up for Ben in my opinion. Id be willing to bet by the end of the fight GSP gets more takedowns
ajp10k
5/21/11 12:05:23AM
Koscheck did take down gsp in the 2nd fight end of the 1st round....

Also Askren hits takedowns no one could ever do his name is funky for a reason.
ajp10k
5/21/11 12:08:10AM
I dont know if GSP has truely better wrestling then Ben. I saw Ben at Midlands in a supermatch agesnt silver medalest Jake Herbet and he owned Jake. Not to mention Ben was giving up about 20 pounds.
KungFuMaster
5/21/11 2:06:47AM
You guys are misunderstanding the strengths of GSP. The one to dethrone GSP, if any, will more than likely not be a talented wrestler. He will be someone with great stand up and great Jiu Jitsu. If wrestling was GSP's kryptonite, then Hughes and Koscheck would have stood good chances when they had their shots. But as we know, that is not the case.

What makes GSP a seemingly dominant wrestler in MMA is not his wrestling skills, it is his speed and overall strength. GSP is arguably the most strongest welter weight fighter in the ufc and possibly in all of MMA. It is his speed which allows him to cover a large distance in such a short amount of time. It is also his speed which allows him to avoid take downs. It is his strength which allows him to muscle his way out of a clinch or to prevent a take down.

If a wrestler is to take GSP down, he will have to be just as fast as GSP or faster -and so far we have not seen anyone cover distance like GSP. Therefore, the most plausible way for GSP to be dethroned is for him to be defeated by a great striker with great Jiu Jitsu. The mma fighter who comes closest to meeting those two criteria is Nick Diaz.

Furthermore, Diaz is tall and lanky which will give him a reach advantage in the stand up and better control of GSP while on the bottom, something which Penn did not have.
Boston617808
5/21/11 6:11:44AM
Nope. Not yet at least. GSP is on a whole different level than anyone else at his weight class. the only type of fighter i see beating him anytime soon is someone like rumble or anderson. someone who has the ability to KO anyone with one punch. im not putting rumble in silva's class but you know what im saying. no one's going to wrestle him or outwork him. i dont think anyones going to out grapple him either. only a serra type situation is gonna beat him right now. IMO of course
sbulldavid
5/21/11 11:21:58AM
I've been on the Askren bandwagon since before he turned pro, but his striking and strength disadvantage is too much right now, Askren looks like he could fight at 155 to be honest.
State_Champ
5/21/11 1:38:02PM

Posted by ajp10k

This man could out match George St.Peirre in Wrestling. He is a Olypmic level wrestler also a ADCC level grappler. Still young in his life at age 26, also in the MMA world. He holds a recored of 8-0 and the bellator Welterweight Champion. Ben Askren. Thoughts?



I am with you..... somewhat.

I would like to see Askren vs GSP. But definitely wouldn't pick Askren (although I might bet on him).

I do see how Askren's wrestling and tenacity could be a challenge for GSP.
Askren doesn't seem the type to give up after a few failed takedown attempts. GSP would probably demolish Askren while the fight is upright, but Askren hopefully would just keep pushing for the takedown.

Then again, I thought Koscheck would keep pushing for the takedown. I also thought Shields would keep pushing for the takedown....

I would like to see Askren vs GSP. But definitely wouldn't pick Askren.
postman
5/21/11 4:48:00PM
Lol jab jab jab jab.
Pookie
5/21/11 8:12:12PM
I'd give Rumble Johnson a better chance that Ben Askren.
sbulldavid
5/21/11 10:23:02PM
I think Rumble matches up with GSP quite well, but look what Koscheck was able to do to him.
Pookie
5/21/11 10:28:54PM

Posted by KungFuMaster
Furthermore, Diaz is tall and lanky which will give him a reach advantage in the stand up



I agree with most of your post, but

Diaz 74" reach
GSP 76" reach.
KungFuMaster
5/22/11 3:52:37AM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by KungFuMaster
Furthermore, Diaz is tall and lanky which will give him a reach advantage in the stand up



I agree with most of your post, but

Diaz 74" reach
GSP 76" reach.



LOL - You know, I don't really pay much attention to the actual stats. I just assumed Diaz would have a longer reach.

You can give me a negative prop and I'll be ok with that.
Pookie
5/22/11 4:14:31AM

Posted by sbulldavid

I think Rumble matches up with GSP quite well, but look what Koscheck was able to do to him.



Watch that fight again and look at what Rumble was able to do to Koscheck. In the first round Rumble has a good chance at being able to do that to St. Pierre, and i think St. Pierre could be overcome by strikes far easier than Koscheck.
tattflash
5/22/11 7:55:30AM
Do we really need another wrestler in an already stacked lay and pray division ??
its bad enough with GSP, Kos, Fitch and the overrated Shields without having another fighter who likes to lie on top and control the entire fight
postman
5/22/11 10:02:45AM

Posted by tattflash

Do we really need another wrestler in an already stacked lay and pray division ??
its bad enough with GSP, Kos, Fitch and the overrated Shields without having another fighter who likes to lie on top and control the entire fight

I

Overrated Shields? Everyone said he had no shot with GSP yet he was the first fighter to take a round from him since Serra knocked him out. Maybe you have a different definition of overrated.
CoachRDS
5/22/11 3:13:37PM
As of the current moment, Nick Diaz has a better chance of beating GSP than Askren. That's not to say that eventually Askren couldn't be the best 170 lb fighter in the world. The problem currently is that, like UFC_Fanatic said, Askren needs time to develop into a polished MMA fighter. Working with Duke Roufus will help his stand up tremendously, and more MMA experience will polish his wrestling and jiu jitsu for MMA. Askren could be able to beat St. Pierre, but not for at the very least 2 years, probably more.
TheCooler212
5/22/11 10:40:40PM
askren isnt even in the same league as st piere in an mm fight.
tattflash
5/26/11 6:55:05AM

Posted by postman


Posted by tattflash

Do we really need another wrestler in an already stacked lay and pray division ??
its bad enough with GSP, Kos, Fitch and the overrated Shields without having another fighter who likes to lie on top and control the entire fight

I

Overrated Shields? Everyone said he had no shot with GSP yet he was the first fighter to take a round from him since Serra knocked him out. Maybe you have a different definition of overrated.



He is overrated in my opinion,( To which i am entitled) he would not of won that round had he not poked GSP in the eye at least twice, He came to the UFC as Dana Whites world beater and in all honsety i think he would struggle against the likes of BJ, Fitch, Condit to name a few like he struggled to beat Kampmann
Jekyll
5/26/11 7:17:09AM
there is a MASSIVE difference in amature wrestling and MMA wrestling... No-one in the world is a better MMA wrestler then GSP is right now, how many times does he have to prove it hes got a near 80% takedown completion rate, and hes in a weight class dominated by wrestlers.
KungFuMaster
5/26/11 1:29:23PM

Posted by Jekyll

there is a MASSIVE difference in amature wrestling and MMA wrestling... No-one in the world is a better MMA wrestler then GSP is right now, how many times does he have to prove it hes got a near 80% takedown completion rate, and hes in a weight class dominated by wrestlers.



It is not his wrestling skills which makes him a dominating MMA wrestler, it is his speed and strength which the other wrestlers in his division are lacking. GSP is arguably the quickest and strongest fighter in his division.

jjeans
5/26/11 1:48:52PM

Posted by KungFuMaster


Posted by Jekyll

there is a MASSIVE difference in amature wrestling and MMA wrestling... No-one in the world is a better MMA wrestler then GSP is right now, how many times does he have to prove it hes got a near 80% takedown completion rate, and hes in a weight class dominated by wrestlers.



It is not his wrestling skills which makes him a dominating MMA wrestler, it is his speed and strength which the other wrestlers in his division are lacking. GSP is arguably the quickest and strongest fighter in his division.




Quickest. No. Strongest. No.
Quickest and strongest. Yes.
postman
5/26/11 2:27:21PM

Posted by tattflash


Posted by postman


Posted by tattflash

Do we really need another wrestler in an already stacked lay and pray division ??
its bad enough with GSP, Kos, Fitch and the overrated Shields without having another fighter who likes to lie on top and control the entire fight

I

Overrated Shields? Everyone said he had no shot with GSP yet he was the first fighter to take a round from him since Serra knocked him out. Maybe you have a different definition of overrated.



He is overrated in my opinion,( To which i am entitled) he would not of won that round had he not poked GSP in the eye at least twice, He came to the UFC as Dana Whites world beater and in all honsety i think he would struggle against the likes of BJ, Fitch, Condit to name a few like he struggled to beat Kampmann



Didn't he beat Condit already?
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