The main problem I have with TUF

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Rush
7/23/09 6:35:14PM
Dan Cramer
Matthew Riddle
Amir Saddollah

These are a just a few examples of guys that had only one or no fights prior to fighting in the UFC. How can Dana claim that the UFC is the only place for top fighters when he puts in guys that are just starting out? I realize that there are guys like Cain Velasquez and Josh Koscheck that had only a couple fights prior to their UFC debut and have done well, but I don't agree with the policy of making general exceptions for fighters when you claim that your organization is only for the best fighters. The principle aside, I think it's a big gamble signing a guy like Amir. If he turns out to get pwnt during his contract it would be an epic fail.


I think TUF should be for guys that have some experience in smaller orgs and have shown promise, but have not gotten that big ticket yet. eg.


Diego Sanchez
Joe Stevenson
Jeff Joslin
Roy Nelson


No I'm sure some of you will think/say, well if they can hold their own in TUF, then why can't they get a chance. To that I respond, that if half the cast are very green fighters, how can you really gauge what they will be like against top fighters when they are fighting other new fighters? In addition, this only really works in hindsight when the fighter has proven themselves successful.

I know the UFC has to keep their roster fresh, but I refuse to believe that there are not better choices out there than guys that are 0-0 or 1-0.

mrsmiley
7/23/09 7:54:07PM
I agree Rush and have wondered this myself.

My conclusion is that the UFC is big enough of an organization now,that they can add "half truths" to all their claims.
Not to say everything they say is BS,but they can add a lot of hype and half truths to build upon an already solid fondation.
pv3Hpv3p
7/23/09 8:10:47PM
I have a couple of gripes about TUF... I understand whart your saying, that guys that've been coming up the hard way have EARNED a chance to fight on the big stage... as appose to being there because of a TV personality... it's a very valid point, but if you really look at it, the majority of the fighters that have competed, and especially won, TUF, are those fighters you're talking about (from smaller orgs)...

My main problem is when it holds up title fights... drives me nuts...

But there is one thing that Tuf is excellent at and that is bringing fighters (and coaches) into the public eye like no other platform in mma. And that's where my real qualm comes in... Dana says he hates tournaments... the best fighter never wins, yadayadayada... and then claims his "ultimate fighter" as the winner of a modified tourney format that's used on the show... almost all mma fans loved the old ufc and pride tournements... now why couldn't Dana or Zuffa or whoever use this grand platform that is the ultimate fighter, and use it with current contenders and form an "ultimate #1 contender" toiournament tbhrough a series of ppvs? They ccould still do a reality type tv show, maybe even in conjuncture with a standard tuf format show and add some all access type stuff to hype up the ppv tournaments... spread the fights out, co-mainevent the tournament championship with it's respective weightclass's championship defense and you're set for a huge ppv ina couple, three months!!! It's just that easy

Sorry about the rant but I was going on about the same thing ona different sitew earlier
Twenty20Dollars
7/23/09 8:33:45PM
I just wonder how some of these guys got into the show.

Like Wayne Weems, Blake Bowmen, there were a few others. Where its just like how in the hell did these guys make it on the show. Cause dont they have tryouts for the show.

Sometimes I think back then, those guys I mentioned above were just brought in to lose, so they could get finished.
mentalcase
7/23/09 9:14:30PM
i think they doing a great job in mixing in young telent remember kenny florian had only a few a 2-1 record before the UFC and now hes the #2 LW
bojangalz
7/23/09 9:20:28PM
The biggest problem with TUF is it's reality TV, and Reality TV blows. End of story.

But aside from that, it does hold up titles which is a BIG problem.

And I'll go even further with what Rush was saying. Not only does it sustain the roster life of mediocre talent (as mentioned above); but it gives ZUFFA the impression that they need to keep such fighter around because they've cultivated a following for those fighters and don't want to see those fans turn to a different promotion.

But above all else because TUF creates these dilemas for the UFC talent pool, it keeps truely special rising stars off the roster who deserve to be there (i.e. King Mo, Andre Galvao to name a few off the top of my head).
kopower
7/23/09 9:21:58PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

I just wonder how some of these guys got into the show.

Like Wayne Weems, Blake Bowmen, there were a few others. Where its just like how in the hell did these guys make it on the show. Cause dont they have tryouts for the show.

Sometimes I think back then, those guys I mentioned above were just brought in to lose, so they could get finished.



I agree with ya twenty. Watching some of these fighters is plain frustrating. There were many times I wondered why better fighters weren't on the show. I think some of it has to do with fighters already in the ufc trying to help out fellow gym members. Like Jason Guida, dude couldn't even make weight. I'm sure he got a look cause of the name.
Rush
7/23/09 10:31:28PM
I'm going to do a track of previous TUF participants and see if there is a correlation between their previous experience and their success in the UFC.

Yes, I don't deny there are some guys that had little experience prior to TUF and have done well. However, like I said, this is all fine and dandy in hindsight, but doesn't address the reason for their selection. In the case for Koscheck, I am sure his wrestling experience played a huge part, but what did Amir do prior to TUF?

Regarding tryouts, I know they did exist in the earlier seasons (i.e. Jeff Joslin tried out and didn't get on the show, which is kind of funny considering he was a PanAm BJJ champ.

Records aside, there have been some instances where it is frustrating watching the fights. Some of the guys (which have little or no experience) don't know some basic stuff that I learned in a GSP seminar.

There is also the possibility that some of these inexperienced guys are brought in for cannon fodder. i.e. they are expected to lose against favoured TUF participants. I mean, in most seasons, the producers make it clear who the favorites are.

Oh and I appreciate the support. After posting I thought I was going to get ripped for this thread.
NatedawgThaM
7/23/09 10:47:31PM
I agree. This stuff does wonders for guys like Diego, Joe Daddy, and Danzig. They need more of them! Thats why I really liked the last season a lil more too because at least most of the guys had a lot of fight experience. I didnt see many guys with 0-0 0-1 records. But yeah they def need more guys with up and coming records. Nice post.
MMA_Alex
7/23/09 11:10:05PM
I believe Amir did well in Muay Thai beforehand, but you'd have to check that.
Kpro
7/24/09 3:04:39AM
it also gives these unpolished guys exposure needed to get an invite to a major camp, which in turn can propel their careers much further than if they were left off because they weren't polished enough.

There's no doubt some good fighters have been left off for unproven guys, but the show is as much about creating new talent as finding new talent.
Sam_Rothstein
7/24/09 6:37:16AM

Posted by Rush
Diego Sanchez
Joe Stevenson
Jeff Joslin
Roy Nelson


Hey wait a second!
Rush
7/24/09 7:06:12AM
I know Jeff wasn't a contestant, but I do know he almost got on season 2 or 3 (can't remember). I used him as an example because he had some fights (wins) in addition to having other experience.

AS for Amir, his own site says he was an amateur kickboxer. No mention of a record, so I take that as it wasn't good for doesn't exist.



Posted by Kpro

it also gives these unpolished guys exposure needed to get an invite to a major camp, which in turn can propel their careers much further than if they were left off because they weren't polished enough.

There's no doubt some good fighters have been left off for unproven guys, but the show is as much about creating new talent as finding new talent.




No doubt the show helps these get into camps and get a fan base that they never would have in the first place. However, letting a guy fight in the UFC when he is 0-1 or 0-0 is BS when you (the UFC) claim it is the place for the best fighters in the world.


Kpro
7/24/09 7:21:19AM

Posted by Rush

letting a guy fight in the UFC when he is 0-1 or 0-0 is BS when you (the UFC) claim it is the place for the best fighters in the world.



It is possible to have the best fighters in the world and have average or below-average fighters too.

Just because you claim the best fighters in the world, and have the majority of them, doesn't mean that every single spot on your roster falls under that statement.

The NFL has the best football players in the world but that doesn't mean the best CFL players aren't going to be better than the worst NFL players.

I agree that they have bypassed some fighters they might have considered too good for the reality show, that still have yet to have been offered contracts, but other than that I am missing your point in regards to the UFC claiming they have the best fighters being BS just because they give unproven talent a shot.

Maybe your issue lies with how long they keep them around afterward, after it's obvious they don't belong, and in that case I agree.
emfleek
7/24/09 8:16:32AM

Posted by Kpro

It is possible to have the best fighters in the world and have average or below-average fighters too.

Just because you claim the best fighters in the world, and have the majority of them, doesn't mean that every single spot on your roster falls under that statement.

The NFL has the best football players in the world but that doesn't mean the best CFL players aren't going to be better than the worst NFL players.

I agree that they have bypassed some fighters they might have considered too good for the reality show, that still have yet to have been offered contracts, but other than that I am missing your point in regards to the UFC claiming they have the best fighters being BS just because they give unproven talent a shot.

Maybe your issue lies with how long they keep them around afterward, after it's obvious they don't belong, and in that case I agree.



Agreed. I, too, think they keep TUFer's around too long but I also understand why. Someone has to be a gatekeeper. Why not someone with some name recognition?
Vincent_Vega
7/24/09 8:35:51AM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

I just wonder how some of these guys got into the show.

Like Wayne Weems, Blake Bowmen, there were a few others. Where its just like how in the hell did these guys make it on the show. Cause dont they have tryouts for the show.

Sometimes I think back then, those guys I mentioned above were just brought in to lose, so they could get finished.



I used to post with Blake in the sherdog OT, good guy.

P.S. I pwned him.
emfleek
7/24/09 8:38:22AM

Posted by Vincent_Vega

I used to post with Blake in the sherdog OT, good guy.

P.S. I pwned him.



Rush
7/24/09 11:08:24AM

Posted by Kpro

The NFL has the best football players in the world but that doesn't mean the best CFL players aren't going to be better than the worst NFL players.





I don't agree with that comparison. I'm not saying I have a problem with other good fighters being in other orgs. What I do have a problem with (using your NFL analogy) would be the NFL bringing in a guy fresh out of high school football, when there are many more college football players with more experience and whose experience has solidified their skill set (at least up to that point).

Another example would be a person hiring someone for a position. They will certainly look for someone who has established themselves through education and/or experience. It doesn't mean that the inexperienced guy couldn't do the job as well or better, but there has to be some consistency when establishing benchmarks for what/who is appropriate for you company.

What I would be happy with is if the UFC wanted to bring inexperienced and experienced guys into TUF, regardless of how they do on the show, give the inexperienced guys a few fights in the WEC, before making the decision to move them to the UFC or not. That would be a way of also promoting the WEC as well. Where if you have guys like Diego with experience and who also run through the people on the show, I think that warrants them a shot in the UFC.
UFCmma666
7/24/09 3:02:39PM
i dont quite see the problem were amir beat several "experienced fighters" and finished all of them matt riddle has been somewhat successful as well my point is that if they do well on the show and win i dont think its a issue and they give new guys a chance and if they are not successful they leave
Rush
7/24/09 5:52:22PM

Posted by UFCmma666

i dont quite see the problem were amir beat several "experienced fighters" and finished all of them matt riddle has been somewhat successful as well my point is that if they do well on the show and win i dont think its a issue and they give new guys a chance and if they are not successful they leave




You can only say that in hindsight. I'm talking about the fact that they were even allowed on the show in the first place.
UFCmma666
7/24/09 6:15:19PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by UFCmma666

i dont quite see the problem were amir beat several "experienced fighters" and finished all of them matt riddle has been somewhat successful as well my point is that if they do well on the show and win i dont think its a issue and they give new guys a chance and if they are not successful they leave




You can only say that in hindsight. I'm talking about the fact that they were even allowed on the show in the first place.



with so many seasons theyre scrapin the bottom of the barrell these days
Kpro
7/24/09 7:19:55PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by Kpro

The NFL has the best football players in the world but that doesn't mean the best CFL players aren't going to be better than the worst NFL players.




I don't agree with that comparison. I'm not saying I have a problem with other good fighters being in other orgs. What I do have a problem with (using your NFL analogy) would be the NFL bringing in a guy fresh out of high school football, when there are many more college football players with more experience and whose experience has solidified their skill set (at least up to that point).



We can make it an NBA comparison then, high school players who are raw and unrefined are drafted ahead of 4 year college players on a consistent basis. They're being drafted for what they can possibly become, not who they are (with the exception of Garnett/LeBron type players). They go straight to the NBA with bigger contracts than their 4 year counterparts strictly because of what they "could" become.

Like I said, I think they overlook established fighters that I'd like to see take part, and I think they keep the unrefined ones that don't progress quick enough on too long after the show is over, but I don't think them having these type of fighters in the UFC should have any bearing to call BS on them claiming to have the best fighters in the world.
Rush
7/25/09 7:13:49AM
Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with the NBA. I know in hockey any player that goes right into the big leagues has proven themselves in international competition beforehand, which is how I expect it to be.

Guess, I'll agree to diagree
prozacnation1978
7/25/09 9:19:38AM
if u look at last couple past seasons their talent has dropped off alot there are only like 2 or 3 guys per season out of 16 to 32 fighters still in the ufc
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