Posted by Mastodon2
Posted by warglory
I never said these bands were straight up jazz. They are still metal, but they do have jazz influence. No, its not improvisational, but death metal is much too technical to provide a good landscape for improv (and jazz does not have to be improvised).
For proper evidence, listen to Atheist's "Elements" album, in particular the song Air. How you can call this song completely structured is beyond me. Hell, the entire album is disjointed.
My point is that you called the genre a very bland and simplistic form of music, and what I am saying is that it can be very complex. To call Death's Individual Thought Patterns simplistic would be a sin.
You seem to be dropping the Jazz name in the way that a lot of uneducated metal journos are doing these days, the entire foundation of Jazz is inprovisation, throwing harmonies and odd meters into a song doesnt make it Jazz, but at the same time, straight up imrpov doesnt either. And you cannot say that Death Metal is too technical for improvisation, no music is.
As for the point you make about Atheist, listen to Meshuggah (though it may pain you to do so, they are so bad), they are the perfect example of how something so chaotic, dissonant and disjointed can be perfectly regimented and structured.
Meshuggah? Are you kidding me? They are perhaps one of the most structured mainstream modern metal bands. Disjointed is not a word I would toss around witrh Meshuggah in the same sentence. While I don't agree with the term, many fans call Meshuggah "math metal" for obvious reasons. They are probably about as far away from jazz as you can get. This leads me to Atheist, how can you respond to my point by comparing Atheist and Meshuggah when they sound absolutely nothing alike?
Next, yes Jazz is based on improvisation, but only the most die hard elitists of jazz concur that all jazz must be freeform. If this were truly a widely accepted concept, then artists such as Duke Eillington, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, the entirety of the swing movement, John Coltrane, Dizzy Gillespie and even more modern artists like John Zorn, Bela Fleck and Galactic would not be considered jazz because they have composed albums of their works.
Here are some examples for readers of the debate of composed non-improvised thrash and death metal WITH jazz influences:Watchtower - The Eldritch Atheist's Steve Flynn on drums. This is anything but boring and simplistic drumming Atheist - Mother Man live Ephel Duath
Here is an exmple of Meshuggah. Perhaps to some listeners it may seem a bit disjointed a first, but Meshuggah are simply highly technical metal containing nothing but calculated music. I am actually a fan of this band. http://youtube.com/watch?v=U5YEqmIIdj8