Lesnar Rant... (Long read, but final discussion before fight)

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POLL: Last chance
Mir wins 41% (17)
Lesnar wins 29% (12)
As always, Dana White will win with the money he is going to make off this fight. 17% (7)
I really hate Don King 12% (5)
Pitbull09
1/28/08 12:28:29AM
I was thinking if I should bother to do this but with only one week left til the fight, I want to make it clear why Lesnar (IMO) is over rated.
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So many things to talk about but Ill start with his experience. Brock Lesnar has barely trained in MMA for 2 years now and has one fight which was a victory over a under .500 fighter. Even if people are saying Lesnar is taking to much heat, how can you not expect him to be seen as overrated.

I know he has a amazing college and amatuer wrestling career but do any of you guys honestly think he would be where he is right now if he wasnt in the WWE? The name as a "WWE Superstar" got Lesnar a cut in line to other fighters who have devoted much more years to deserve a contract.
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The second thing is the prob the biggest point. Brock Lesnars style can easily be sayed as a Pure wrestler that is trying to improve on other aspects but regardless, Pure wrestling is his base.

With that style, think of a list "pure wrestler" fighters in the ufc.
Heres some just to list a few
-Matt Hughes (Welterweight)
-Sherk (Lightweight)
-Kos (Welterweight)
-Gray Maynard (lightweight)
-Clay Guida (Lightweight)


Notice something about the list? They are all low weight class fighters and its for a reason. Lets now try to think of Pure wrestlers in the UFC in the Heavyweight or even LHW divisons.

Randy Couture (IS A GRECO ROMAN WRESTLER and shouldnt be compared with Lesnar)
Dan Henderson (Also Greco Roman wrestler)

Pure wrestlers success in MMA can potentially be determined by their weight class. A pure wrestler is going to have an easier time manipulating 155lbs compared to 265lbs. People want to compare Lesnar to a Sherk of the Lightweight division. The problem is, a Sherk in a lightweight division is a champion caliber fighter. A Sherk in the heavyweight division isnt even near a shot as a contender.

Combine this with Lesnar still new to BBJ and the striking game, it is simply ridiculous to say he is able to take on a world class MMA fighter.
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I know people see alot of potential in Lesnar and I dont mind that. What I do mind is how he hasnt shown that he deserves to be in a divison with fighter like AA, CC, Big Nog, Sylvia, Mir, and Kongo. If he wins this fight.

As always these are my opinions and I dont mind critizism. Just give me educated reasons why I'm wrong.
THE_DRiZzLE
1/28/08 1:18:05AM
they're your opinions and does not nessacarely mean your wrong.. actually only time will tell you that.. not some one else imo.. i do agree Lesnar may be getting some special treatment.. such as getting a contract with the UFC with only one fight under his belt.. but that's for obvious reasons such as his already established popularity and also his possible potential.. add in the fact that the HW division is rather shallow and lack luster imo.. i do disagree with your analogy of a wrestler succeeding in the HW division.. i do feel Lesnar has the athletecism to pull it off if he is able to add some other aspects to his game other than the wrestling.. the fact that he has trained in MMA for 2 years before really fighting and the fact that he has taken the approach of being a newb.. he went into training without an attitude that he knows MMA.. but rather an attitude of mold me, teach me what i need to know.. tells me he takes it just as serious as the next guy.. i think the real question is how well he makes the transition.. i will give the guy some credit though.. just cuz he was in the joke that is the WWE shouldn't negate him from the chance nor separate him from any other person trying to get into the sport of MMA imho.. with that said i do have Mirr picked to win by Sub in the 1st round.. but by no means do i delude myself that Lesnar has no chance to win.. Mirr better bring his A game or he just may loose this fight imo.. so if i may say so.. just forget about the fact he was in the WWE and all the hope la that has obviously followed.. cuz all that matters inside that octagon is the 2 men fighting and what they bring to the table.. not the WWE or weather this or that guy deserves to be there.. that will all unfold within the octagon..
Svartorm
1/28/08 3:10:39AM
I think you're looking at the wrestling pedigree from an odd angle. The best wrestlers all tend to be around 170lbs and thats the deepest division in amateur wrestling. It doesn't have to do with wrestling not working when you're large, and you left tons of great wrestlers off your list as well who are in the upper ranks of MMA and upper weightclasses.

Chuck Liddell
Tito Ortiz
Rashad Evans
Ricco Rodriguez
Frank Mir
Babalu
Jake O'Brian
Kevin Randleman

And I wouldn't consider anyone on your list a "pure wrestler" except maybe Koscheck, and even hes added some BJJ and boxing to his game. They all have a wrestling base obviously, but they've all added dimensions to their game over time.

ChokeUout
1/28/08 3:57:55AM
Good points, both of ya...Here's my Lesnar Rant

First off, I wanna say I am 100% for bringing Brock Lesner to the ufc. He'll be an exciting addition, a future contender, and will bring over new fans to the UFC.

That Being Said, the UFC MUST BE ON DRUGS to put Him against Frank Mir!

Let's go over the facts...

-The UFC wants to make a star out of Lesner. THey want him to be a contender, Sell tickets, and even Bring over fans from Pro Wrestling to the UFC. Dana White has stated he's going to market this to the Pro-wrestling Crowd. SO Naturally, They Want Lesner to win his first fight. You'd think an Eddie Sanchez, Brad Imes or Some can of Corn from the season 2 heavyweights on TUF 2 would be in store. Instead, a former champ?

-THis is Lesner's SECOND MMA FIGHT! Even tho he's obviously a physical speciman, He's very inexpierienced in MMA. He's going Up Against a MMA veteren and Former Champion in Frank Mir. Mir isn't gonna make a mistake Lesner needs to win this fight. Conversely, it's only natural for Lesner to make one in his second MMA fight, and first in the UFC. One Mistake is all a guy like Mir Needs.

-Brock Lesner is an outstanding Wrestler, and there's a good chance He'll take Mir Down. BUT, THat's EXACTLY what Mir Wants. Lesner has trained in Jiu-jitsu for a bit and says he feels comfortable there. But Mir is a black belt with Beautiful submissions. Him and Big Nog are the best two in that area in the division. All Mir needs is a split second with an exposed arm, leg, ankle or neck, and Lesner's Night will be over. Mir is just too good on the ground, where I bet this fight will take place.

Maybe the UFC underestimates Mir, Maybe The overestimate Lesner, or Maybe they have their head up their ass. But if Lesner is someone they want to turn into a star, this is a HORRIBLE first match-up for him, as many people probably don't give him a good chance to win this fight.

If you disagree PLEASE TELL ME. I hope I'm missing something. But This looks like a horrible decision for Lesner's first fight.
Svartorm
1/28/08 4:40:41AM
I wouldn't say you're really missing anything as you have a grasp of the situation, but you might want to take a closer look at Mir.

Mir was a champion in an era where there were all of four HW fighters in the UFC worth talking about. He built his career off of people like Tank Abbott and Pete Williams, who while not complete chumps, aren't exactly Grade A fighters.

I'm picking Lesnar, and its not so much that I think Lesnar is the best thing since sliced bread, but more that Mir isn't up to the challenge. The defining fights would be against Wes Sims and Dan Christianson. Frank gassed badly against Sims, and complained in the post-fight that Wes was too physically strong to submit. Lesnar might be the strongest man to step into the octagon short of maybe Gary Goodridge. If a pre-motorcycle accident Frank couldn't sub Wes Sims, post-motorcycle accident Frank is as good as dead against Lesnar.

The other fight being Dan Christianson, who Frank never even came close to submitting, and Dan couldn't even cut it in the IFL.

Frank has trouble with larger, stronger fighters, and has a questionable gas tank. The other thing is that I don't believe his leg will ever be 100%, and that has to effect not only his shot, but his bottom BJJ game. He hasn't subbed anyone off his back since his accident, and he might not have the strength in that leg to manipulate someone like Lesnar, who walks around at 290lbs, if Lesnar gets top position.

Franks only real shot here is in the stand-up, which Frank has been working on, and we don't know what Lesnars chin is like, or if he can manage a sweep and put Lesnar on his back and sub him from the top.

I'm not betting on Lesnar, so much as I'm betting against Frank.
grappler0000
1/28/08 7:12:46AM

Posted by Svartorm

I wouldn't say you're really missing anything as you have a grasp of the situation, but you might want to take a closer look at Mir.

Mir was a champion in an era where there were all of four HW fighters in the UFC worth talking about. He built his career off of people like Tank Abbott and Pete Williams, who while not complete chumps, aren't exactly Grade A fighters.

I'm picking Lesnar, and its not so much that I think Lesnar is the best thing since sliced bread, but more that Mir isn't up to the challenge. The defining fights would be against Wes Sims and Dan Christianson. Frank gassed badly against Sims, and complained in the post-fight that Wes was too physically strong to submit. Lesnar might be the strongest man to step into the octagon short of maybe Gary Goodridge. If a pre-motorcycle accident Frank couldn't sub Wes Sims, post-motorcycle accident Frank is as good as dead against Lesnar.

The other fight being Dan Christianson, who Frank never even came close to submitting, and Dan couldn't even cut it in the IFL.

Frank has trouble with larger, stronger fighters, and has a questionable gas tank. The other thing is that I don't believe his leg will ever be 100%, and that has to effect not only his shot, but his bottom BJJ game. He hasn't subbed anyone off his back since his accident, and he might not have the strength in that leg to manipulate someone like Lesnar, who walks around at 290lbs, if Lesnar gets top position.

Franks only real shot here is in the stand-up, which Frank has been working on, and we don't know what Lesnars chin is like, or if he can manage a sweep and put Lesnar on his back and sub him from the top.

I'm not betting on Lesnar, so much as I'm betting against Frank.





This matchup is a win-win in the UFC's eyes. They can give Lesnar his first match against a known fighter. On top of that, Lesnar will be considered legitimate if he performs well against an ex-champ. Of coarse the UFC plans for Lesnar to win this one...and I have to say that I agree he will. But, even if Mir is able to catch Lesnar in a sub, Lesnar will have lost to an ex-champ in his second pro fight....not so bad. If all goes as planned and Lesnar is victorious, then that makes for some huge sports news...Lesnar defeats former heavyweight champ in his second pro fight...that's the sort of thing that catches people's attention.
Pitbull09
1/28/08 4:25:47PM

Posted by Svartorm

I think you're looking at the wrestling pedigree from an odd angle. The best wrestlers all tend to be around 170lbs and thats the deepest division in amateur wrestling. It doesn't have to do with wrestling not working when you're large, and you left tons of great wrestlers off your list as well who are in the upper ranks of MMA and upper weightclasses.

Chuck Liddell
Tito Ortiz
Rashad Evans
Ricco Rodriguez
Frank Mir
Babalu
Jake O'Brian
Kevin Randleman

And I wouldn't consider anyone on your list a "pure wrestler" except maybe Koscheck, and even hes added some BJJ and boxing to his game. They all have a wrestling base obviously, but they've all added dimensions to their game over time.




I knew I would get the Kevin Randleman thing brought up but if you look at that list of fighters, they either havnt come close to become a champ or rely on other parts of their game to win fights. Im sure no one here thinks of Chuck Liddels wrestling as his best weapon but he is "Balanced" in his mma game. Thats the problem here with Lesnar. He is not going to win a fight alone off of wrestling. Even Matt Hughes had to up his game with BBJ and GnP to not be a full one dimesion fighter.

Chuck Liddell (Relies on striking more which helps out his wrestling)
Tito Ortiz (Former fighter and I admire his work on the ground when defending in full mount than his actual wrestling)
Rashad Evans (Still a LHW and he has a balanced game to help his wrestling)
Ricco Rodriguez (This guy is alittle farther back and I would say a fighter with his gameplan in the UFC would not work, its evloved since)
Frank Mir (Frank Mirs wrestling is good cause he has added BBJ into it as well as striking and good cardio, he is also a fighter from farther back)
Babalu (There is no way you could suggest Babalu being known for his wrestling. He is purely a genius in BBJ, not wrestling.)
Jake O'Brian (Is he wearing a belt? He wont be either)
Kevin Randleman (This guy is a good expection and an amazing fighter. But he is a middleweight guy truly.)

I know I made my list short but I was trying to make my point. All these fighters are great and I admitt wrestling is a part of their game but Lesnar is going to have to rely solely on that part to win and I dont see him having a chance. He needs way more training before a fight this high.
Pitbull09
1/28/08 4:28:12PM
Also, I understand that the UFC really is just doing this for money and it kind of upsets me. The org is ment for top fighters. Put Kimbo, Lesnar, and hong man all in the same org and let them go at it
Svartorm
1/29/08 4:04:18AM

Posted by Pitbull09

I knew I would get the Kevin Randleman thing brought up but if you look at that list of fighters, they either havnt come close to become a champ or rely on other parts of their game to win fights. Im sure no one here thinks of Chuck Liddels wrestling as his best weapon but he is "Balanced" in his mma game. Thats the problem here with Lesnar. He is not going to win a fight alone off of wrestling. Even Matt Hughes had to up his game with BBJ and GnP to not be a full one dimesion fighter.


Babalu (There is no way you could suggest Babalu being known for his wrestling. He is purely a genius in BBJ, not wrestling.)

Kevin Randleman (This guy is a good expection and an amazing fighter. But he is a middleweight guy truly.)

I know I made my list short but I was trying to make my point. All these fighters are great and I admitt wrestling is a part of their game but Lesnar is going to have to rely solely on that part to win and I dont see him having a chance. He needs way more training before a fight this high.



Babalu was on the Brazilian National wrestling team before going into MMA. He added other elements to his game, but in his early years he was a pure wrestler.

Randleman has never fought below 205lbs, so hes not a MW.

As for Lesnar, hes been working with Erik Paulsson and Josh Barnett for awhile now, so I very much doubt hes going into this fight with nothing but wrestling. Even in his one fight he showed decent composure on the feet and won via brutal GnP.

I'm not saying hes going to blow through the HW division, but there are plenty of great wrestlers out there who make their backgrounds work for them, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who has won a title and is strickly adherant to one discipline.
RMFG_187
1/29/08 3:23:19PM
ME Lesnar
Pitbull09
1/30/08 1:31:43AM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by Pitbull09

I knew I would get the Kevin Randleman thing brought up but if you look at that list of fighters, they either havnt come close to become a champ or rely on other parts of their game to win fights. Im sure no one here thinks of Chuck Liddels wrestling as his best weapon but he is "Balanced" in his mma game. Thats the problem here with Lesnar. He is not going to win a fight alone off of wrestling. Even Matt Hughes had to up his game with BBJ and GnP to not be a full one dimesion fighter.


Babalu (There is no way you could suggest Babalu being known for his wrestling. He is purely a genius in BBJ, not wrestling.)

Kevin Randleman (This guy is a good expection and an amazing fighter. But he is a middleweight guy truly.)

I know I made my list short but I was trying to make my point. All these fighters are great and I admitt wrestling is a part of their game but Lesnar is going to have to rely solely on that part to win and I dont see him having a chance. He needs way more training before a fight this high.



Babalu was on the Brazilian National wrestling team before going into MMA. He added other elements to his game, but in his early years he was a pure wrestler.

Randleman has never fought below 205lbs, so hes not a MW.

As for Lesnar, hes been working with Erik Paulsson and Josh Barnett for awhile now, so I very much doubt hes going into this fight with nothing but wrestling. Even in his one fight he showed decent composure on the feet and won via brutal GnP.

I'm not saying hes going to blow through the HW division, but there are plenty of great wrestlers out there who make their backgrounds work for them, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who has won a title and is strickly adherant to one discipline.



Im sorry about the Randleman statement. Somehow I mixed him up with Matt Lindland, lol go figure. I just dont see any fighter improving to this caliber even if they were training the best fighters in the world. It takes time and I still believe Lesnar is one dimesional and wont make a good debut.

I understand though what your saying with the HW divison.
rcg916
1/30/08 2:09:37AM

Posted by RMFG_187

ME Lesnar



Forum Rules Against Fighter Bashing You
KeNn
1/31/08 12:15:29AM
hmm OKAY I'll add my 2cents.

Cons For Lesnar
Lesnar is totally over rated, because of the WWE. The only thing he knows is how to wrestle and that falls right into Mirs game plan, motorcycle accident or not you bet mir can still crack somebodies bones. Lesnar is really bulky and might not be as flexible on the ground, nor as durable.

Pro's.
He's power full he might be able to control Mir.



I honestly see Mir taking this one round 1 Via Submission
teamquestnorth
2/1/08 1:00:44AM
alright im not fighter bashing but lets bring reality back into the picture. Mir got ground and pounded to next week by PE DA PANO!! I know that was only like mirs second fight fight back from his accident but i dont know if hes improved that much. I dont wanna see a wwe wrestler beat a former world champ like mir but im afraid its gonna happen. Ufc should have resigned monson and let him and lesnar go at it.
Kracker_Jap
2/1/08 10:23:22AM

Posted by rcg916


Posted by RMFG_187

ME Lesnar



Forum Rules Against Fighter Bashing You




BASHING???

I'm not sher Shooting falls into the bashing catagory

War Lesner I don't know why but I'm rooting for this guy
KeNn
2/1/08 8:38:03PM


I'M PUTTING THIS IN THE POLITEST WAY...

Lesnars first fight and they put him against a gibble, a dude who got messed up in the accident.

WHY NOT CC, he'd give lesnar a good welcoming
jiujitsufreak74
2/1/08 8:43:56PM

Posted by KeNn



I'M PUTTING THIS IN THE POLITEST WAY...

Lesnars first fight and they put him against a gibble, a dude who got messed up in the accident.

WHY NOT CC, he'd give lesnar a good welcoming



i am going to answer as if this isn't a joke because i am not sure if it is or not. i personally feel that mir is too skilled of an opponent to have brock debut against so i don't know where you are coming from. brock should have had one more fight that lasted longer than 2 min before he faced mir because accident or not mir is a talented fighter and i think he will show the world that he has regained his form and will not be as sloppy as he was in his last few fights. lesnar is a great competitor but 1 fight does not warrant a fight in the UFC. make him fight RR first or something in a smaller venue before bringing him tot he UFC. but maybe i am wrong and maybe he is ready but this is the big stage meant for the best competitors and unless i see him fought more than once i can't say if brock is one or not.
KeNn
2/2/08 12:58:10PM
I was kidding, Mir still hasn't lost knowledge.

TECHINIQUE>POWER.....But we'll see tonight.
WHAT IF BROCK TAPPED HIM OUT?....

I'm so mad though, I believe Dana's only doing this for publicity, Brock should have had to build his way up. Pisses guys like me off , who train everyday and get no place.
Pitbull09
2/2/08 2:03:46PM

Posted by KeNn

I was kidding, Mir still hasn't lost knowledge.

TECHINIQUE>POWER.....But we'll see tonight.
WHAT IF BROCK TAPPED HIM OUT?....

I'm so mad though, I believe Dana's only doing this for publicity, Brock should have had to build his way up. Pisses guys like me off , who train everyday and get no place.



I like this guy lol,



Anyone remember TUF 7 finale? Technique>Power. Unless Lesnar improves his striking and BJJ to Mirs level (not possible with the time he had), its just not goingto go Lesnars way.