Lesnar is near the pinnacle of mma

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bootyclause
7/14/09 2:19:30PM
i dont hate him, i think hes exciting. I got into mma and loved all the BJJ moves and Muay Thai and big slams and all that technical stuff - but the original premise of mma is finding out who can win in a fight using any art they can as long as they use somewhat civilized tactics (aka under the rules of the sport).

The bottom line is that Brock Lesnar can probably beat up about 6 billion different people and there are less than a few hundred men on Earth that would have any chance to beat him in a fight. Most would be underdogs too.

No one is outwrestling him.

the only way of knocking him out is with some 1 punch/kick miracle. If he fought every great HW striker in the world between all the kickboxers, mma fighters and boxers, he would maybe get an unlucky KO 5% of the time and get the takedown and mauling TKO in his favor the other 95% of the time.

there are maybe 10-20 ultra elite BJJ HWs that can escape his assault and get a sub. and you cant even triangle him, probably cant armbar him, probably not guillotine, maybe not even a RNC.....he's just too big and powerful. so ur main hope is going for the leg, ankle, maybe a perfect RNC late in the fight if you somehow survive.

Yes its sad that his presence and brute force method overshadows the sweetness of BJJ or other technical skills of other mma fighters. you dont have to like him. but realistically, you have to acknowldge he is good at mma fighting as untechnical as his style may be.
bootyclause
7/14/09 2:24:26PM
oh yeah also - many people attacked Shaquille Oneill when he first appeared in the scene.....other players, coaches and fans grumbled about the rules and purists wouldnt give him his due. Any lover of the game would prefer to see a great crossover dribble, sweet pass or amazing dunk from a smaller player. In the end though, Shaq is one of the best players ever in the NBA.

Brock has a lot of similarities to Shaq in that sense. His size and athleticism to control that size makes him a force that few can step up to and defeat.
scoozna
7/14/09 2:31:14PM
I read all that in the hopes you would state more than the obvious. I'm not sure you did. Did we not think the same way with Matt Hughes for a while, or perhaps A. Silva right now?

Isn't a matter of time, really, before someone finds a weakness - somewhere - in his game? Isn't it a matter of time before some other huge hulk of a man - perhaps from football or Olympic wrestling - with outrageous strength and athleticism decides to try MMA and is damn good at it, and dethrones him?

fullerene
7/14/09 2:56:37PM
There are probably 50 guys who can make the 265 pound limit who can outwrestle him, thousands of guys who could beat him in a sub wrestling match and tens of thousands who could beat him in a boxing or kickboxing match. Most of those guys are not competing in MMA and some of the ones who are can't put the whole package together in a way that compliments their strongest skill. But Brock, as imposing as his talents may seem, has several ways of losing to several potential opponents--a few of whom I'd favor over him right now.
KUTTER
7/14/09 3:23:11PM
This thread made me giggle... I bet lesnars nutz killing him as hard as the poster was swinging from them. Impressive, yeah so so..Groundbreaking or phenomenal,not by a long shot. Once I see him par up with someone who strength more up to par maybe ill be convinced. Not as though he has faced a Carwin or Mirko, let alone a Barnett or Fedor.Not bashing he def not a joke,but he is no unicorn either
Jackelope
7/14/09 3:37:00PM
I'll put it to you this way- If Lesnar vs. Mir would have taken place with boxing gloves and no takedowns, in all likelihood Mir would have whooped Lesnar's ass.

If Mir vs. Lesnar would have taken place without strikes on the ground, in all likelihood Mir would have whooped Lesnar's ass.

That right there shows you that he's still got things to overcome. Dude is a beast no doubt, and this is MMA.. so you know that discussing things like the "what ifs" I talked about mean jack squat, but it DOES show you that he has things to work on. Someone will beat him. It's only a matter of time, and it's already been done once before.
telnights
7/14/09 3:49:31PM
Well if MMA has taught is anything its guys that only have one skill set only last so long before someone exploits their weakness. But to Lesnar's credit he is still very new to the sport and still learning.
ncordless
7/14/09 4:00:44PM
The pinnacle of mma is not a very inexperienced wrestler with a lot of size. Lesnar is great and he will probably be dominant in the UFC (unless some better HWs come around) but the pinnacle of mma would be a fighter who does everything as well as anyone else who is also a outstanding physical specimen and understands the sport in a way that gives him excellent gameplanning.

GSP is probably the closest thing to it right now, but I am guessing we have a ways to go before we see the true height of what an mma fighter can be.
loller90278
7/14/09 5:15:02PM
pinnacle of mma?
sure.
mkiv9secsupra
7/14/09 5:58:26PM
The pinnacle of MMA is when you can use technique and every aspect of martial arts to overwhelm your opponents NOT your physical stature.

Lesnar's greatest weapon is his size. If he fought guys in the same weight range as him im positive hed lose a lot more often.
SpiderSilva
7/14/09 6:51:23PM
Lets face it Lesnar is an up and comer who just so happens to be the champ and gets BETTER with every fight. Hell can you imagine if he was on this up coming season of TUF it could have been possible with his record he would have destroyed everyone
cmill21
7/14/09 7:39:24PM
I remember when Bob Sapp was thought to be unbeatable in K-1....Glad your one of the few who seem to think Brock is unbeatable. I would have liked to see him fight HMC, I think he probably would have lost, I envisioned a knee as Brock shot in.
tdietel01
7/14/09 8:20:01PM
is it pure dislike for lesnar that makes some of you **** on him so much? he is an ass with his antics and crap, but he does look pretty unbeatable. 5 mma fights and he has beaten arguably 3 top ten HW? I think the only way he loses is if he ventures into the world of striking against someone like cro cop. if he takes everyone down he will not lose very much. the best HW JJ guy had nothing for him on the ground! who else is there? the only on i can think of is a man with great sambo, and im not convinced he can beat lesnar.
cmill21
7/14/09 8:47:43PM

Posted by tdietel01

is it pure dislike for lesnar that makes some of you **** on him so much? he is an ass with his antics and crap, but he does look pretty unbeatable. 5 mma fights and he has beaten arguably 3 top ten HW? I think the only way he loses is if he ventures into the world of striking against someone like cro cop. if he takes everyone down he will not lose very much. the best HW JJ guy had nothing for him on the ground! who else is there? the only on i can think of is a man with great sambo, and im not convinced he can beat lesnar.



Mir's the best hw JJ guy? Hmmmm...
mkiv9secsupra
7/14/09 9:38:22PM

Posted by cmill21


Posted by tdietel01
the best HW JJ guy had nothing for him on the ground!



Mir's the best hw JJ guy? Hmmmm...



that is arguably one of the most questionable statements anyone has posted in a while.....
gartface
7/14/09 10:18:58PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra

Posted by cmill21

Posted by tdietel01 the best HW JJ guy had nothing for him on the ground!
Mir's the best hw JJ guy? Hmmmm...

that is arguably one of the most questionable statements anyone has posted in a while.....

Top 5 maybe, but he seems to have fallen in love too much with his "amazing" boxing. Lesnar gets too much hate in my opinion. I think he could bully his way to a victory with most any heavyweight in the UFC. And for those who think that Shane Carwin can hang with him...the guy has no chin. And if you ask Herring's eye socket, it'd probably agree that Brock hits hard. If he made the mistake of standing with a speedy kickboxer Mirko or Brandon Vera(if he moves back up) he'll get worked and probably outpointed. Lesnar has a long ways to go, but he's doing damn well for someone with 5 career fights.
Jackelope
7/14/09 10:25:25PM
I don't think it's too much of a stretch of the imagination to consider Mir ONE OF the best HW BJJ guys out there.

When it comes to MMA people have too much of a tendency to place an emphasis on non-MMA jiu jitsu accomplishments. Anybody who trains or competes will tell you that doing BJJ with a gi on or in a submission wrestling match is completely different than doing BJJ in MMA competition. Things change when people can punch you in the face.

Gabriel Gonzaga is just one example of a phenomenal BJJ artist that hasn't exactly had incredible BJJ success in the Octagon. Werdum, whom many people consider to be a great BJJ artist, never scored a submission throughout his UFC career. I could cite more and more examples, but you get the point. Mir, on the other hand, and while not always against top tier opponents, has managed to score submission victories in a variety of ways.
ObsoleteMan
7/14/09 10:57:40PM

Posted by bootyclause

i dont hate him, i think hes exciting. I got into mma and loved all the BJJ moves and Muay Thai and big slams and all that technical stuff - but the original premise of mma is finding out who can win in a fight using any art they can as long as they use somewhat civilized tactics (aka under the rules of the sport).

The bottom line is that Brock Lesnar can probably beat up about 6 billion different people and there are less than a few hundred men on Earth that would have any chance to beat him in a fight. Most would be underdogs too.

No one is outwrestling him.

the only way of knocking him out is with some 1 punch/kick miracle. If he fought every great HW striker in the world between all the kickboxers, mma fighters and boxers, he would maybe get an unlucky KO 5% of the time and get the takedown and mauling TKO in his favor the other 95% of the time.

there are maybe 10-20 ultra elite BJJ HWs that can escape his assault and get a sub. and you cant even triangle him, probably cant armbar him, probably not guillotine, maybe not even a RNC.....he's just too big and powerful. so ur main hope is going for the leg, ankle, maybe a perfect RNC late in the fight if you somehow survive.

Yes its sad that his presence and brute force method overshadows the sweetness of BJJ or other technical skills of other mma fighters. you dont have to like him. but realistically, you have to acknowldge he is good at mma fighting as untechnical as his style may be.



Where do you put Brock on your P4P list? ie, if he were in a theoretical fight were weight/size was NOT a factor, where would you rank him in the whole UFC roster?

Certainly not the top 10. Top 30? Maybe... He's not even the best wrestler in the UFC, and that's his 1 dimension.

I mean, I can't argue with a lot of what you said, he's a monster, and probably gonna rack up a huge win streak before he's done. But the pinnacle of MMA? Come on. The pinnacle of being as close to the Hulk as humanly possible, sure. But to me, the pinnacle of a sport has to be great in every aspect. For MMA, that's the Number 1 P4P. That's another argument, but there's no way it's Brock.
GSPVSSILVA
7/14/09 11:28:24PM
There is only 3 fighters who are near the pinnacle of MMA and we all know who they are. and Brock definitely isn't one of them
cowcatcher
7/15/09 12:31:25AM
the original poster did bring up something i think is noteworthy and thats the comparison between shaq and brock. in terms of physical dominance brock has been a lot like shaq in the nba, the problem is that being the most dominant physical presence and being the best are two different things. he clearly is not the best but id be hard pressed to pick a more dominant physical presence in any weight class and that along with his wrestling base gives him a good chance of being a real force in the HW division for awhile.

im not ready to say hes going to beat fedor though, im not ready to say anyone will until i see it happen.
tdietel01
7/15/09 1:54:44PM
Why all the sudden is Mir not the best JJ HW??? I am pretty sure everyone agreed on that very recently! like before the fight. i know when lesnar beats someone all the sudden they are trash and werent really that good (herring was a good fighter before the fight then all the sudden wasnt a good fighter, Couture too old all the sudden, and now Mir wasnt really a decent JJ guy) not saying anyone specific cause i dont remember who writes what in past posts. but im sure if i looked it up, some oppinions will have changed
GSPVSSILVA
7/15/09 3:07:08PM
Same thing will happen to lesnar.
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