Legend vs legend ... worth it ???

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keith-hackney1
8/2/07 2:41:16PM
Ken shamrock announced a few weeks ago on beatdown that he's back in the gym and training to fight again soon. He spoke of the idea that superfights including legend vs legend should become apart of this sport in the future, this potentially could give the fans fights and rematches including the likes of shamrock, gracie,frye, Coleman, randlemen, smith, ruas, tank etc...
After seeing royce gracie with his drug enhanced victory that he stole from the great sakuraba, im not so sure these fights would go down to well as this is not what fans are looking for. There is however one fight i would pay to see in the legend vs legend fight league, which is Royce gracie vs Ken shamrock. Royce would have to fight at 185 and shamrock could get down to around 205. The only reason i would love to see this fight happen is because i believe shamrock would pummel gracie and the gracie name will finally be forgotton as the ultimate fighting style, as aposed to a great form of self defence against non mma practioners.
Any thoughts ????

nubby
8/2/07 2:46:10PM

Posted by keith-hackney1

Ken shamrock announced a few weeks ago on beatdown that he's back in the gym and training to fight again soon. He spoke of the idea that superfights including legend vs legend should become apart of this sport in the future, this potentially could give the fans fights and rematches including the likes of shamrock, gracie,frye, Coleman, randlemen, smith, ruas, tank etc...
After seeing royce gracie with his drug enhanced victory that he stole from the great sakuraba, im not so sure these fights would go down to well as this is not what fans are looking for. There is however one fight i would pay to see in the legend vs legend fight league, which is Royce gracie vs Ken shamrock. Royce would have to fight at 185 and shamrock could get down to around 205. The only reason i would love to see this fight happen is because i believe shamrock would pummel gracie and the gracie name will finally be forgotton as the ultimate fighting style, as aposed to a great form of self defence against non mma practioners.
Any thoughts ????



I think the majority of fans could care less about hasbeens.
keith-hackney1
8/2/07 2:48:01PM



I think the majority of fans could care less about hasbeens.


Your probebly right, but i bet ya, shamrock vs gracie 3 in the ufc at the ages they are at now, would sell as well as couture vs gonzaga !!!
DevonFoxy
8/2/07 2:53:36PM
Idk for me i think it would be a waste of space. This is just my opinion but MMA is at it's most exciting time. Most of the best fighters in the world are fighting the best. Its a very exciting time with fights that can help being Nog v Couture, Wandy v Chuck, and rematches of Shogun v Rampage and on and on. I mean i wouldn't put these fights on the fight cards just because they aren't really needed. I would rather watch fighters in their prime fighting for gold instead of Old school Legends fight slow paced matches that have no impact on title pictures as they can't keep the pace with the fighters in their prime. This is just my opinion of course but i really think this would in no way help MMA as a whole so i wouldn't like t see it happen.
nubby
8/2/07 2:55:31PM

Posted by DevonFoxy

Idk for me i think it would be a waste of space. This is just my opinion but MMA is at it's most exciting time. Most of the best fighters in the world are fighting the best. Its a very exciting time with fights that can help being Nog v Couture, Wandy v Chuck, and rematches of Shogun v Rampage and on and on. I mean i wouldn't put these fights on the fight cards just because they aren't really needed. I would rather watch fighters in their prime fighting for gold instead of Old school Legends fight slow paced matches that have no impact on title pictures as they can't keep the pace with the fighters in their prime. This is just my opinion of course but i really think this would in no way help MMA as a whole so i wouldn't like t see it happen.


I agree with this.
Cobbs666
8/2/07 2:56:40PM
it would pull in alot of $$$ though , i would pay to see bas again for sure
mrlfromhell
8/2/07 2:56:54PM
gracie vs. huges was one of the best selling ufc events in history. so it might work.
keith-hackney1
8/2/07 2:59:41PM

Posted by DevonFoxy

Idk for me i think it would be a waste of space. This is just my opinion but MMA is at it's most exciting time. Most of the best fighters in the world are fighting the best. Its a very exciting time with fights that can help being Nog v Couture, Wandy v Chuck, and rematches of Shogun v Rampage and on and on. I mean i wouldn't put these fights on the fight cards just because they aren't really needed. I would rather watch fighters in their prime fighting for gold instead of Old school Legends fight slow paced matches that have no impact on title pictures as they can't keep the pace with the fighters in their prime. This is just my opinion of course but i really think this would in no way help MMA as a whole so i wouldn't like t see it happen.



If you look at it this way, all the old rock bands from yesteryear that still tour around small venues throughout the world who in their day were the best bands on earth. These bands like the who, the searchers, pink floyd and the rolling stones still get to perform in front of 200,000 people on the mainstage in glastonbury and the live eight/earth concerts. So, if compared to the mma legends of yesteryear, should they be given the oppertunity to comeback to the big events and fight on the worlds biggest stages ??? ... (ufc)
DevonFoxy
8/2/07 3:07:09PM

Posted by keith-hackney1

If you look at it this way, all the old rock bands from yesteryear that still tour around small venues throughout the world who in their day were the best bands on earth. These bands like the who, the searchers, pink floyd and the rolling stones still get to perform in front of 200,000 people on the mainstage in glastonbury and the live eight/earth concerts. So, if compared to the mma legends of yesteryear, should they be given the oppertunity to comeback to the big events and fight on the worlds biggest stages ??? ... (ufc)



Yes i understand where your coming from but i don't think you can compare it like you are, Fighting and jamming are completely different. When a band gets back together its nice but the quality is usually the same. In mma the legends Probably wont be able to keep the pace they used to. I think the fights will suffer in quality. These fighters just would come back for one fight it may bring ratings but i just feel right now MMA is in a place where this would not be the time for this to happen.
TNunley
8/2/07 3:26:37PM

Posted by DevonFoxy


Posted by keith-hackney1

If you look at it this way, all the old rock bands from yesteryear that still tour around small venues throughout the world who in their day were the best bands on earth. These bands like the who, the searchers, pink floyd and the rolling stones still get to perform in front of 200,000 people on the mainstage in glastonbury and the live eight/earth concerts. So, if compared to the mma legends of yesteryear, should they be given the oppertunity to comeback to the big events and fight on the worlds biggest stages ??? ... (ufc)



Yes i understand where your coming from but i don't think you can compare it like you are, Fighting and jamming are completely different. When a band gets back together its nice but the quality is usually the same. In mma the legends Probably wont be able to keep the pace they used to. I think the fights will suffer in quality. These fighters just would come back for one fight it may bring ratings but i just feel right now MMA is in a place where this would not be the time for this to happen.



I agree in part with you, but look at Randy Couture whos first UFC was UFC 13, Chuck Liddell UFC 17, Tito Ortiz (even though he's not as great as he once was) UFC 13. Randy Couture is HW Champ, Liddell up until Rampage laid him a beating was LHW Champ for over 2 years.

I do however think that Ken Shamrock should just call it quits. He once was a great fighter, but I think his time has passed. But just because of that, you can't just count out other "Legends".
Ydoc
8/2/07 3:45:07PM
I'd like to see it in the future for cards that lack a little punch like UFC 72 did. I think MMA needs to get to a point where every fight doesn't have to have a guy going up a ladder for a title, like if you put up a classics card once a year with the winners not getting another match in 3 months. They would just fight for honor, pride, and money. Don't involve the titles or chances at title shots at all. It'd all be a good way to bring back some older fans.
TNunley
8/2/07 3:52:39PM

Posted by Ydoc

I'd like to see it in the future for cards that lack a little punch like UFC 72 did. I think MMA needs to get to a point where every fight doesn't have to have a guy going up a ladder for a title, like if you put up a classics card once a year with the winners not getting another match in 3 months. They would just fight for honor, pride, and money. Don't involve the titles or chances at title shots at all. It'd all be a good way to bring back some older fans.



Not a bad idea, but the money would probably have to be decent. I mean look at Royce, I personally don't think he could have earned anywhere near enough money for his fight with Hughes. The guys who are "legends" could stand losing a big part of their reputation. After all, not sure about everyone else, but I held Royce at such a high level for what he had proven in the early days, and then for him to come back and lose in the manner he did...
Ydoc
8/2/07 4:05:59PM
That's another thing too, they have better chances of it being a close fight. They aren't fighting guys like Franklin or Hughes, all the matches would be much closer because everyone involved has lost a step or two over the years.

The only real hurdle like you said is the money, but if promoted right any legend fights should be able to make it all back.
keith-hackney1
8/2/07 4:38:29PM
The thought of a legend vs a legend would undoubtably be a different pace of a fight compared to all the young guns around in mma today. But most true mma fans would appriciate that and know that the fight they are about to see would be a world apart from main events like the ufc are putting on. But, i still like the idea of it, i'd love to see shamrock vs gracie 3 under modern ufc rules. Dan severn is the oldest ufc legend still competing around the globe, he still puts up a fast performance. I'd love to see him pitted against maurice smith or bas rutten in the octagon. This sport has yet to see has been fighters as its still evolving and the first generation of fighters who fought in the beggining are still fighting, so dont labell the likes of ken shamrock as a has been yet, he's a fighter, has been all his life, he refuses to retire yet because of this !!!

What would you rather see on the undercard of a ufc event, wanna bee half trained ultimate fighters( who could not perform when giving a golden ticket on the show )fight each other so they can fight the looser of the other ultimate fighter series on the next ufc undercard, or the experienced fighters like coleman, severn, shamrock, gracie and so on fight the fights we never got to see back in the day ????
Ultimate_fighter
8/2/07 4:51:22PM
Legend vs Legend would be the best idea.. i dont care who is fighting, becuz they would all be legends of the UFC . i would buy that ppv....
loonytnt
8/2/07 5:51:27PM
id pay to see that because old guys have something to prove it be a good fight

old vs old woohoo

new vs old boo
mrsmiley
8/2/07 6:41:46PM
I would defenintly watch it.
johny_rotten
8/2/07 6:57:27PM

Posted by keith-hackney1

Ken shamrock announced a few weeks ago on beatdown that he's back in the gym and training to fight again soon. He spoke of the idea that superfights including legend vs legend should become apart of this sport in the future, this potentially could give the fans fights and rematches including the likes of shamrock, gracie,frye, Coleman, randlemen, smith, ruas, tank etc...
After seeing royce gracie with his drug enhanced victory that he stole from the great sakuraba, im not so sure these fights would go down to well as this is not what fans are looking for. There is however one fight i would pay to see in the legend vs legend fight league, which is Royce gracie vs Ken shamrock. Royce would have to fight at 185 and shamrock could get down to around 205. The only reason i would love to see this fight happen is because i believe shamrock would pummel gracie and the gracie name will finally be forgotton as the ultimate fighting style, as aposed to a great form of self defence against non mma practioners.
Any thoughts ????




I have a serious problem with the last couple lines of this. With out the Gracie's self defense there is no MMA practitioners to defeat them. If Royce loses it doesn't do any thing to the legacy of BJJ. It is still the core of any MMA fighter's training. BJJ in MMA is similar to ice skating being a part of hockey.
SpiderSilva
8/2/07 7:39:19PM
I would pay to see old schoo guys fight just not over done maybe a good undercard maybe even the first fight of a show but it should never be a main event
Raiderz757
8/2/07 7:43:02PM
ide like to see shamrock back in the ring again. i dont care aginst who but preferably some1 who is older like him.
Btews22
8/2/07 9:59:22PM
maybe in another promotion but not in the UFC
Pitbull09
8/2/07 11:58:31PM
This topic bores me. Brailian Ju jitzu is ione of the most dominate styles to learn in mma so the gracies will never die jsut because shamrock beat gracie with a 20 lb weight difference. Im will be surpised if Shamrock fights again unless against other elders like Militech in IFL. Thats about all I see in his future.
hippysmacker
8/3/07 1:21:27AM
Shamrock / Frye again is the only one of those possible matches I would care to see.
ncordless
8/3/07 1:58:39AM
I would like to see Shammy vs. Yoshida.
chadtruitt1979
8/3/07 2:09:35AM
I think they both need to retire. They are both worn out.
jomatty
8/3/07 9:15:35AM
id pay to see it and i think that royce would win but i also think it is a bad idea.

i mean senior events are fine for a sport like golf or tennis, but thisis fighting for gods sake, a dangerous sport. i dont think that anyone should be encouraged to keep on past their prime.

i can see why this would appeal to ken though as he seems desperate to keep fighting and the only way he can be competitive is to fight other fighters past their prime. weve all seen what happens when he fights even decent fighters who are youngerthan him. he gets beat and then claims early stoppage.

and there is absolutely nothing that can take away royces legacy. he showed teh world a new dominating style and is the most influential fighter in mma history,
keith-hackney1
8/3/07 4:36:30PM

I have a serious problem with the last couple lines of this. With out the Gracie's self defense there is no MMA practitioners to defeat them. If Royce loses it doesn't do any thing to the legacy of BJJ. It is still the core of any MMA fighter's training. BJJ in MMA is similar to ice skating being a part of hockey.


Yes but the gracies one way minded stubboness that they and their style was superior to any other martial artist really payed off as in todays sport they are no longer a force to rekon with. Look at royce, no time limits, big fat sumo opponants, drug taking ... all the in the gracie jj book of cheating and winning. The gracies are fakes because their secret fighting system was quickly flushed out as other fighters got good at mma and got better than the gracies !!!!

Lets be honest guys, the gracies were never really that good. All of their opponants were hand picked, they only fought strikers and look how well they compete in todays fighting unlike the way they were in the begining.
The gracies invented a bjj style that was very effective against fighters who didnt know what it was. MMA was bourne to defeat the gracies !!!!!!!!!!!
chickmagnet
8/3/07 9:43:25PM
Don Frye vs. Ken Shamrock would be a sick fight!!!
Lord_Lenny
8/5/07 6:32:34AM

Posted by keith-hackney1


I have a serious problem with the last couple lines of this. With out the Gracie's self defense there is no MMA practitioners to defeat them. If Royce loses it doesn't do any thing to the legacy of BJJ. It is still the core of any MMA fighter's training. BJJ in MMA is similar to ice skating being a part of hockey.



Yes but the gracies one way minded stubboness that they and their style was superior to any other martial artist really payed off as in todays sport they are no longer a force to rekon with. Look at royce, no time limits, big fat sumo opponants, drug taking ... all the in the gracie jj book of cheating and winning. The gracies are fakes because their secret fighting system was quickly flushed out as other fighters got good at mma and got better than the gracies !!!!

Lets be honest guys, the gracies were never really that good. All of their opponants were hand picked, they only fought strikers and look how well they compete in todays fighting unlike the way they were in the begining.
The gracies invented a bjj style that was very effective against fighters who didnt know what it was. MMA was bourne to defeat the gracies !!!!!!!!!!!

Couldn't disagree more, their style WAS superior to any one martial art. Your named Keith hackney yet you bash Royce for participating in those fights. Correct me if im wrong but hackney fought sumos in no time limit matches. One Gracie cheated and seems to be exiled from his family, yet to you they all cheat? The Gracie's are fakes because they advanced MMA?

The Gracie's weren't that good? And the majority of there opponents were strikers because thats all there was. Royce beat shamrock, and Severn who were both ground experts. How could Royce's opponents have been handpicked? it was a tournament. If you look on the wider spectrum of Gracies, they were often challenged, and not one of them has turned down a fight that i know of, especially spawning back to the days of helio and carlos gracie. The Gracie's still have success now, not as much but that is due to the fact that the Gracies competing currently are old and beyond the point where they could integrate much wrestling/striking into there game. But the new generation of Gracies: Ralek, Roger etc. show a promising future in MMA due to the fact that they also strike. MMA was born to defeat the Gracies? in that case thank the Gracies for spawning MMA. Truth is the Gracies are an important part of MMA.

If you are familiar with the Gracie's history, you'll find they aren't quite as stubborn as many think. Carlos gracie invented Gracie Jujitsu by learning judo and JJ, and others from a Japanese master. Unrestrained by Japanese traditions they took out the impractical parts of each and started combining them in way that they would have a hybrid of combined martial arts, a big step in the formation of MMA. Helio and Carlos taught their five other brothers their new art and they began fighting, they would experiment new techniques and found what worked in their style and what didnt, what parts to emphasize, and what parts not to, constantly tweaking their art. Of course the Gracies must be proud of what they accomplished using GJJ, so of course they are hesitant to make drastic changes to something that dominated for so long. But trust me the Gracies wont be to proud to change their style or put more emphasis on striking, because changes have already been made, and you'll see it soon with the new generation of Gracies

Sorry for a long rambling, im just a big fan of the gracie family, their history and their contribution to this great sport
keith-hackney1
8/5/07 5:24:20PM
QUOTE]
Couldn't disagree more, their style WAS superior to any one martial art. Your named Keith hackney yet you bash Royce for participating in those fights. Correct me if im wrong but hackney fought sumos in no time limit matches.

.... Hackney got a quick tko on the much bigger sumo fighter.

The Gracie's weren't that good? And the majority of there opponents were strikers because thats all there was. Royce beat shamrock, and Severn who were both ground experts.

..... When royce beat shamrock, the gracies must of known that he hadnt fought any fighter with bjj as their discipline. Dont you think the gracies knew that, after all rorian gracie co-owned the ufc and must of had his hands in the draws for the tournaments. Rorian gracie wanted the easiest route for the gracie style to finish on top. As for dan severn, the grcie clan knew not too much, as you see the gracie brothers watching from the crowd as severn dismantled marcus bossatt and anthony marciaze with ease. Severn was the only fighter that the gracies knew was a threat to beating royce in that competition. Severn nearly had it all except he was not aggressive enough to take it from royce, a few good clean shots to royces head and he could of got the ko. Royce knew from his back that severn wasnt going to strike so he waits it out and gets a sub on a tired severn.
Thats not brilliance from royce gracie, thats clever stratigising from his brothers and from rorians selection of opponants for gjj.



Unrestrained by Japanese traditions they took out the impractical parts of each and started combining them in way that they would have a hybrid of combined martial arts, a big step in the formation of MMA.

... MMA was formed by all the athletes around the gracies in order to beat their style, the only influence that the gracies had in the evolution of this mma sport is that their style was the template that fighters studdied in order to beat it, thats later became known as mma.

But trust me the Gracies wont be to proud to change their style or put more emphasis on striking, because changes have already been made, and you'll see it soon with the new generation of Gracies

..... The next generation of the gracies will no longer have gjj as their unstoppable wepon as we all know one style is not compatible in todays fighting. The new generation of gracie fighters will fight as mma practioners and not gracie jj fighters. Gracie jj will soon be in the books. I mean, it will still be there, but the gracie style was never about stikes and wrestling etc.. so as it slowely comes in to their training regime and becomes a part of gjj training, that means that gjj ground fighting specialists is now gjj-mma.

Without a doubt this sport would not be here if the gracies hadnt come out in to the world. But the consistant arrogance from the gracie family that their style has to go down as the best form of self defence sickens me as MMA is the ultimate style, not gjj on its own.

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