Lead hook KO's

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Jackelope
6/14/08 8:20:05PM
I was looking through some HL footage and I realized something that I don't think I've ever cared to notice before. That is the stunning amount of lead hook KO's there have been throughout the history of MMA. I find it especially funny considering most of the lead hook KO's I've seen are thrown way extended and with poor form.

It got me thinking about something I've always thought about, though. That is how conventional and crisp strikers tend to score less clean KO's than unconventional power strikers who throw sloppy bombs.

What do you all think about this concept and the reasons for it? Am I way off on my facts (I'm not the best MMA facts guy) or is there some weight to this argument?
seanfu
6/15/08 2:36:26AM
1 Some of the sloppy guys have maybe a higher level of athleticism?
2 A guy like Leben throws a million hooks and you have to be defensive in that situation. Unlike boxing the gloves are crazy small and allow shots to go through.
3 Could be a case of wins some loses some but will eventually catch you.

Hard to tell but a lot more (from what I know) mma fighters tend to be better with groundfighting and maybe lack defensive talent in the standup.

just some thoughts.
SmileR
6/15/08 8:10:00AM
I'v never really thought about it but now you mention it I can actually think of a good few!
As it said above it could be that the gloves are smaller allowing more punches through which could attribute to it but then theirs always the "if you get tagged you get tagged" way of thinking.

I get what you're saying about crisper strikers getting less KO's when you have someone like Leban running round throwing bombs and KO'ing guys like Sakara who have good boxing backgrounds.
My personal opinion is with the smaller gloves it is easier to get tagged and dropped with a wild hook or sloppy cross as they are more difficult to defend. But then you always get a exception to my theory with Mr Middle Weight Anderson Silva. He has pin point accuracy and a fair amount of KO's to his name. I'll be keeping a eye on this thread and seeing if we can get to the bottom of it!
The-Don
6/15/08 11:51:39AM
I think part of it is alot of fighters do training wearing BOXING gloves... As stated boxing gloves have more surface area then an MMA glove of even the 8 ounce training MMA gloves. ... THis could led to alot of blocks or misdirects in the gym during training... become solid connecting shots in the ring with the smaller gloves... plus when somthing is done a bit sloppy espically as fighter get tired they tend to throw hard cause they are tired but thier form suffers having a tendency to make those late sloppy punches more damaging..


Those are my thoughts on this
Jackelope
6/15/08 12:38:36PM
I would agree with the gloves being smaller except in the case of hooks, actually. Unless you're seeing them landing on the mastoid process (Cote vs. Grove) I don't think the gloves always have something to do with it considering it is mostly the upper arm and the elbow that protects the chin in the case of a standard hook defense.

The thing that surprises me most is how sloppy the lead hooks are usually thrown. I don't know about you guys, but I feel like my lead hook is one of my weakest punches. I've tagged a couple guys pretty decent with it, but it's never felt near as powerful as a straight right or a hook from the back hand for example.

The-Don
6/15/08 2:29:49PM
hmm thinking of it from a medical stand point the brains is protected better from blows straight on and directly to the side most hooks don't land in these areas but more between them espically when thrown with the lack of precision most seem to be thrown with... this could account for the number of KOs from them.
905010
6/15/08 7:17:28PM
I've herd that when someone see's a shot coming, and they brace them selves for the hit they won't get Ko'ed, but if a wild shot that comes out of no where grazes them they go down because they didn't expect it. Granted, wheter you see the shot coming or not if it is hard enough you will go down. I also notice that the guy who stays calm, dosn't get rocked nearly as much as the guy who is flaing wildly, or someone who is nervous about getting KO'ed. About the lead hook though, i think everyone is differnet when it comes to that either you have a stong lead hook or a strong rear hook. I guy i train with right hooks are 10xs as hard as his lefts and vise versa for me. You can devlop power in both but one just come more natural.
The-Don
6/16/08 1:16:27PM
I recently read on a boxing site that the stronger your neck is the less likely tou are to get KO'ed I can see alot of truth to this and well having a strong neck for a fighter of anykind cannot hurt...

Is there anyone who can corralate this with fighter with small necks getting Ko'ed easily..

Granted if this is the case, it would take a baseball bat to KO a guy like Brock Lesner.. though I am sure strong necks are just one factor perhaps an important one worth exploring..
Rush
6/16/08 4:31:53PM
I can think of a few points. Take them at face value

1) A right handed person typically stands left foot forward in striking (orthodox) whereas the same person in grappling will typically stand right foot forward. My theory is that some grapplers lead right foot forward to set up a takedown, but still prefer to strike with their dominant hand.

2) Poor strikers (and from what I hear there is no shortage of them in MMA) probably have less power and are less dominant looking on the feet. If a guy is fighting a sloppy striker he might have the tendency to want to stand and bang with the other guy. He might opt for the takedown or work the cage with a seasoned striker, thus increasing the probability that the sloppy striker might connect.

3) Another thought might be (and an expert striker can confirm or refute this) is that there is a huge lack of lateral movement in MMA, which could cause a tendency for linear movement whilst punching (i.e. stepping into your punch). The more experienced strikers may not do this

4) There is a strong possibility of someone dodging a strike into a takedown and more experienced strikers are more conservative with their power commitment, whereas the sloppy guy tries to track the movement with all their power.

Just some thoughts
Jackelope
6/16/08 11:15:37PM

Posted by Rush


3) Another thought might be (and an expert striker can confirm or refute this) is that there is a huge lack of lateral movement in MMA, which could cause a tendency for linear movement whilst punching (i.e. stepping into your punch). The more experienced strikers may not do this




For not being a striker that's a pretty good point. Hell, most of my training is in stand up and while I have noticed this for sure I didn't think to apply it to this situation. Lateral movement would normally move you right into a hook, but if it's done right it can cut short the hook attempt and open the straight hand counter, especially in the case of two orthodox strikers.

Edit: Then again thinking about it you damn Aikido guys have footwork down to a science. Especially when wearing those ******* Hakama pants!
Jackelope
6/16/08 11:19:24PM

Posted by 905010

I've herd that when someone see's a shot coming, and they brace them selves for the hit they won't get Ko'ed, but if a wild shot that comes out of no where grazes them they go down because they didn't expect it.



If they're taking a lot of jabs and their lead eye is messed up it's real easy to not see a lead hook coming. In this instance I'm talking more about early KO's in fights, but the point you make is a worthwhile point to consider for sure.

When it's a grazing shot it's not so much about the fact that they didn't see it, it's that it catches towards the front of the chin which causes the jaw to rotate the head more. Once your head rotates to a certain point your brain will "shut off" to protect itself.
jiujitsufreak74
6/16/08 11:21:12PM

Posted by Rush

I can think of a few points. Take them at face value

1) A right handed person typically stands left foot forward in striking (orthodox) whereas the same person in grappling will typically stand right foot forward. My theory is that some grapplers lead right foot forward to set up a takedown, but still prefer to strike with their dominant hand.




i think this fact is the main reason why we see so many lead hook KOs. stances in MMA are different than stances used in kickboxing. personally, i can attest to a lot of people at my gym that do this while fighting MMA because of the whole grappling aspect. i myself switch stances constantly throughout the fight so i can't say that this effects me directly but i know that t effects people that i train with.
The-Don
6/18/08 12:05:39PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74


Posted by Rush

I can think of a few points. Take them at face value

1) A right handed person typically stands left foot forward in striking (orthodox) whereas the same person in grappling will typically stand right foot forward. My theory is that some grapplers lead right foot forward to set up a takedown, but still prefer to strike with their dominant hand.




i think this fact is the main reason why we see so many lead hook KOs. stances in MMA are different than stances used in kickboxing. personally, i can attest to a lot of people at my gym that do this while fighting MMA because of the whole grappling aspect. i myself switch stances constantly throughout the fight so i can't say that this effects me directly but i know that t effects people that i train with.




yea I kinda do the same think I am right hander but I have a tendency to stand like a lefty.. though I do switch stances alot.. except for my kicking skills I can do all my strikging equally well either stance but some kicks I do better in each stance.. though I feel more comfortable grappling from lefty stance.
VictimSix
6/23/08 2:59:12AM

Posted by The-Don

I recently read on a boxing site that the stronger your neck is the less likely tou are to get KO'ed I can see alot of truth to this and well having a strong neck for a fighter of anykind cannot hurt...

Is there anyone who can corralate this with fighter with small necks getting Ko'ed easily..

Granted if this is the case, it would take a baseball bat to KO a guy like Brock Lesner.. though I am sure strong necks are just one factor perhaps an important one worth exploring..


I have a somewhat long neck, not so much skinning but kidna long and I learned very quick that I would have to develope a very tight defense because when someone hits me with a hook or a looping punch on the jaw I have much more neck motion which is not only painfull but will drop me.

Over the years my neck has gotten stronger (I think more from jits then boxing actually) so if I see it coming I can normaly brace my neck enough so it dosn't swing from the east coast to the left.

To the question of why people get ko'd with lead hooks is more then likley just horrid defense. I was impressed with Diago the other night because he would keep his non throwing hand anchored to his cheek. I hardly ever see mma fighters do that. Having your hand there to stop the impact or keep your neck from jerking will save you from being on a highlight real.
The-Don
6/23/08 11:49:55AM

Posted by VictimSix


Posted by The-Don

I recently read on a boxing site that the stronger your neck is the less likely tou are to get KO'ed I can see alot of truth to this and well having a strong neck for a fighter of anykind cannot hurt...

Is there anyone who can corralate this with fighter with small necks getting Ko'ed easily..

Granted if this is the case, it would take a baseball bat to KO a guy like Brock Lesner.. though I am sure strong necks are just one factor perhaps an important one worth exploring..


I have a somewhat long neck, not so much skinning but kidna long and I learned very quick that I would have to develope a very tight defense because when someone hits me with a hook or a looping punch on the jaw I have much more neck motion which is not only painfull but will drop me.

Over the years my neck has gotten stronger (I think more from jits then boxing actually) so if I see it coming I can normaly brace my neck enough so it dosn't swing from the east coast to the left.

To the question of why people get ko'd with lead hooks is more then likley just horrid defense. I was impressed with Diago the other night because he would keep his non throwing hand anchored to his cheek. I hardly ever see mma fighters do that. Having your hand there to stop the impact or keep your neck from jerking will save you from being on a highlight real.



Good point... focus on your defense alot more would be a major way to help
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