Kyle maynard to climb Mount Killamanjaro!

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warglory
10/16/11 2:17:28PM

Posted by Pookie

We should make a thread where we all make a dissertation on ethics, morals, and the balance of the two.

I can see the selfish arguement, but i also think those people are grown adults and it's their choice. If they die its their fault. Survival of the fittest.




Survival of the fittest? Isn't that counter-intuitive to the whole concept? If that were the case, Kyle Maynard would have been dead a long time ago.
warglory
10/16/11 2:28:26PM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by KungFuMaster


Posted by ncordless




And I am saying so what if he can't. It's the fact that he and the people around him are going to attempt it that matters

Of course you can't wake up and be an Olympic sprinter. But if you woke up one morning and decided you were going to try and win the Olympics and dedicated yourself to the task, even if you never even really got close, you'd still be better off than if you'd woke up and said no I can't do it. It's better to try and fail than to never try.

So what if people are not all born the same? Are you seriously saying that people shouldn't try to overcome their handicaps? Why should Maynard be content to let his disability control his life and decide what he can and cannot do.

Kyle Maynard could die up on Killamanjaro, and the fact that he and the people around him attempted would still be a success. Like I said before, better to die trying and failing than to live and never have tried.

And as far as how much gratification he will get out of it, I think he is probably in a better place to answer that than you or I.



I agree the attempt itself is a success. It has eastern philosophy written all over it. And as someone who tries to live his life according to eastern philosophy, I must object to Maynard's ambitions. I cannot allow someone to risk his life to help me achieve something as selfish as climbing a mountain. I agree completely with Warglory here...

If Maynard was to embark on a selfless act such as helping world hunger - and needed physical help and support, I would support the act and donate to the cause. Climbing a mountain is selfish IMO. One can argue it has symbolic meanings and will inspired folks around the world to test the limits of their bodies - but to me, that is pure selfishness. Here in America, we do a lot of selfish things and try to fabricate some out of this world meaning to justify it and make it appear honorable.

If you want to be selfless and inspire others to do the same, you go out and give your heart and soul to helping others and expect nothing in return. You would go into third world countries and bleed so others can live. That is being selfless. To me, climbing a mountain is strictly a personal ambition. The physical benefits will benefit no one other than the climber. One can argue the intangible benefits will inspire others...but I don't buy it. People who want to set records and swim around the world, fly around the world etc. are doing so because of personal ambition.

In the case of Maynard, it is a personal ambition but his situation is unique and requires a team of expert to help him do so.

Let me ask you personally, ncordless - would you allow someone to risk his life to help you climb Mt. Kilimanjaro?



If they wanted to, definitely. What's more, if I was in a position to help someone like Maynard climb that mountain, I'd risk my life to do it. I would have no problem asking people who know the risks to engage in possibly life-threatening activity. Last time I did it was when I rafted the Rogue River. I am an inexperienced rafter, and while I tried my best I got us in a couple hairy situations by getting ejected. What's worse, not only did I accept help, I paid for it. I had a river guide, and I am glad I did. And you know what else? I bet so was he. Now I realize that rafting the rogue is not the same thing as climbing the tallest mountain in Africa, but the principle is the same. If the people are in a position where they know the risks and have an opportunity to accept or deny them, there is nothing selfish in receiving their acceptance. To refuse it is paternalistic in my opinion. I tend to treat people like they are intelligent enough to be able to make decisions for themselves. I call it respect. Your version of selfishness contains no respect for the individual who decides your goal or cause is what he wants as well and determines to aid you at his own peril. Again, you seem to think that it is an inherently bad thing to ask someone to risk their life There are much worse things than dying.

And there are things much better than just living. Your idea of selfishness is too arbitrary. What you see as selfishness, others might see as the greatest gift they could receive, the opportunity to act selflessly in helping someone else fulfill a personal goal that they would not otherwise be able to achieve by themselves. Take the example donating a kidney to someone who will otherwise die. Even if the act of accepting an organ donation could be considered selfish, the giving and taking an organ is as much an act of selflessness as selfishness. Is it always better to deny the opportunity for someone to act selflessly in order to not act selfishly? For selflessness to exist in the world, so must selfishness. Most selfish action is bad action, but not necessarily all of it. But the thing is, the question is moot in this context because accepting help in a life threatening situation is not an act of selfishness.

If the rule of ethics to be followed is that you should never ask someone or accept their offer to engage in life-threatening behavior to accomplish personal ambitions, the consequences are absurd. If your goal is to survive an attack or fire, it is selfish call the police or the fire department. . . and the more your life is in danger the more selfish you are. Driving a car with passengers to a place of your choosing is selfish. Batman was selfish for allowing Robin to help him. Watching MMA is about as selfish as it gets, because you are allowing fighters to accept the task of engaging in physical combat for your personal pleasure.
Ridiculous.

The better rule is to give them the opportunity and let them accept or deny the decision to engage in life threatening behavior, even if it is for your benefit. If a person is fully aware of the dangers, affirmatively takes on the challenge and all the risks it entails (and there would be a ton because I am in no shape to climb Mt. K right now), then I would gladly accept their help with gratitude.



If everyone who helps Kyle on this venture is being paid, than there is no problem because they are being paid for their risk, but I have a feeling it's those closest to him that are going to be doing the majority of the helping in terms of assisting in his physical difficulties.

Your situation, assuming Kyle is using volunteers, is nothing like his situation, because as you pointed out, there were professionals whose job it was, to guide the inexperienced rafters. The principle is not the same, because money was involved, thus not making it a selfless endeavor.

The reason that volunteers in this case, would be selfish on Kyle's part, has nothing to do with someone else's ability to form their own logical reasoning, it's that he would be taking advantage of their loyalties for his own personal gain. The volunteers would be ready and willing to go, and that's commendable, but it's being done so Kyle can fuel his self worth. Now self worth is a huge aspect of life, especially when you are as disadvantaged as him, but when your self worth is attained by exploiting others, that translates into selfishness.

Donating a kidney is not a valid comparison because, as far as I know, Kyle is a healthy adult who just wants to climb a mountain just because he wants to say he can. If Kyle didn't do this, he'd go on living just fine. How is it not selfish to ask someone else if it's okay to rely on them so that you can stroke your own ego?

Here's a more apt comparison. Imagine if someone is a completely self sufficient adult that wants to do some death defying act with extreme risk, like free climbing a large cliff face. Now this person's significant other is completely supportive, 100% behind them, but the couple has 4 young kids, and the partner doesn't make enough to support the family if the adventurer is killed. Is it okay for the rock climber to take his/her family's blessing and proceed with achieving this dream? I say no, because that person is being completely selfish and ignoring the larger risk of what death can bring to those that care for this individual. This is exactly what Kyle is doing, just in a different way (again, assuming there are volunteers helping him out).


warglory
10/16/11 2:35:08PM
I replied instead of edited, please ignore this post.
KungFuMaster
10/16/11 3:51:37PM
Ncordless says:
So if Kyle gives them money it is ok, but if he doesn't then it is selfish? What does the addition of money add? If anything, isn't it more selfish have someone risk their life for money than have them do it of their own free will?

KFM says:
We live in a cruel world where almost everything revolves around money. Money offsets the balance of power and debt.
Scenario 1- Kyle hires a team of climbers. During the climb, one of the hired climbers dies. Should Kyle feel responsible for his death? No, because Kyle has neutralized the balance of power and debt in the form of money. Power in this sense does not refer to authority but more like relevance.

Scenario 2- Kyle is intercepted by a team of climbers who volunteered to help him (free of charge ) and he accepts. During the climb, one of the volunteers dies. Should Kyle feel responsible for his death? Only Kyle will be able to answer the question but as for myself – if I was in his shoes, I would definitely feel responsible for the climber’s death. When the climber falls to his death, right there and then – I will realize how selfish I am for wanting to climb a mountain and how selfish I am for letting them help me while endangering their lives in the process. >>>>In this case, the balance of power and debt has not been neutralized and Kyle will more than likely feel worse in this scenario than in the other…

Ncordless says:
If I was your friend and a good climber, and you were going to climb a mountain and not let me help you where you would otherwise fail, I would take it as an insult to our friendship and tell you that my life is to do what I please with and it is not for you to judge what is or what is not a worthy risk. If you can make the decision to risk your life, that so can I with mine..


KFM says:
There is a guest/host relationship which goes back hundreds of years and is more prevalent in the East and Middle Eastern nations. You offer something to me. It is my responsibility to decline. Now, it is your responsibility to insist I take it – that is if the offer is genuine.
Let us test your belief. Let us assume you are Kyle. Let us assume one of the volunteered climbers is your son. First of all, will you let your son help you in this seemingly selfish journey? And secondly, how would you feel if your son fell to his death during this climb?

Ncordless says:
A selfish act is not just one which is done to gain an advantage by using someone. It requires that you are acting against the interests of somone. There is nothing selfish about things done for mutual advantage. I bet you that every single one of the people going up Mt. K with Maynard desire him to come. They want it, too.

KFM says:
I do not doubt they want to be a part of this journey. My issue is with Kyle and his inability to see the consequences of his ambition. His ambition has ignited a chain of events which will put many lives at stake. If he was to embark on this journey by himself, we would not be having this conversation. Both you and I will commend him for such bravery and determination.

Ncordless says:
I see selfishness every day. I spent last summer donating 40 hours of time per week helping people that had been taken advantage of by selfish people. There was a woman from a foreign country who had been brought over by her husband, who had relatives who were well-established in the area. He took her away from her family, got her pregnant, and repeatedly physically, sexually, and emotionally abuse her, all the while not allowing her to leave his home or to contact anyone. I won't go into to specifics besides to tell you that some of the things done were forcing her to have sex with him within 48 hours of her giving birth, and intentionally get into car wrecks with her and their child in the car. Among many other things, his behavior was selfish in that he was stealing her freedom and life against her will. When social workers finally found out that she was there, they convinced her to get help. She came to me and asked for it, letting me know that she felt her husband would try to kill her and her child, and told me that she thought he might try and attack me for taking her away from him. By your definition, her act was selfish. She was not able to do what she needed to do by herself (she only spoke Cantonese for starters), and she thought that she was putting me in danger. And I am so glad that she did, because it felt really good to take that burden from her and fix it. We put a 2-year restraining order on his ass and when he violated it we put him in jail, got him zero custody in the divorce, and sent her on her merry way back to her family and safety. What she did wasn't selfish. I wanted to help her. The people with Kyle want to help him, are aware of the risks, and want the challenge.

KFM says:
Our discussion is proof selfish and selfless are not opposites. What you have stated in the above does not reflect my idea of selfish and selfless. The person you have helped – needed the help. She was not in danger by choice but by force. Kyle, on the other hand, is in danger by choice and not by force –and he is welcoming a handful of lives to join him and their lives too – will be in danger.
I can understand your points in this discussion and I hope you understand my points as well. I doubt we will be able to break any grounds but I hope our discussions have opened new outlooks on life for the readers and the participants of this thread.
kingsmasher
11/22/11 10:48:44AM
Lol i missed this post....

dam those Sherpas are gonna earn tehir money there...How much you wanna bet the sherpas are offered a win bonus?

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