Koscheck without GSP?

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infestructure
3/24/12 11:54:06PM
If GSP was not in the picture, do you think Koshcheck would be champ?

GSP>





Koscheck>
Everyone else
Twenty20Dollars
3/25/12 12:54:36AM
He wouldn't.

Kind of not even sure how he is a contender now, considering how little I think he has evolved. Striking not great, usually just loads up for a big punch.

Almost got beat by Pierce, but really probably should have been draw with the eye pokes.

I think there are quite a guys at WW that I would have beating Kos.
Aether
3/25/12 1:09:46AM
I would pick him to beat anyone other than GSP most likely. Only way he really loses is if he tries to stand for too long against a better striker and doesn't go for TDs, which is how he almost lost the fight against Pierce IMO. Once he starts shooting power doubles most fighters will go down 100% of the time and he has a good enough chin to close the distance safely.
Cooler
3/25/12 2:16:12AM


Chael_Sonnen
3/25/12 2:19:43AM
Perhaps in Titan FC
tcunningham
3/25/12 3:15:31AM
i think he would have had the belt but already lost it. i think fitch would have held it longer if he had gotten it.
pmoney
3/25/12 7:51:49AM
Kos has gotten on my nerves since TUF 1. But I have to admit he is a great fighter. Better than everyone not named GSP though? I am not sure.

Kos has evolved an insane amount since his Ultimate Fighter days, imo. But he is certainly capable of being defeated. And I can't recall Kos avenging any of his UFC losses, which I think is telling. I would potentially pick him over Paulo Thiago if they fought again though.

Kos has a big test ahead in Johny Hendricks (and vice versa), which I think makes this thread even more timely.
sbulldavid
3/25/12 1:41:46PM
It would be a merry go round without GSP and Kos would probably one of many champions.
KungFuMaster
3/25/12 1:48:14PM

Posted by pmoney


Kos has a big test ahead in Johny Hendricks (and vice versa), which I think makes this thread even more timely.



I'm picking Hendricks over Koscheck just like I picked Hendricks over Fitch.
Budgellism
3/25/12 2:01:02PM
He might have won a title once but I doubt we'd see him as the champ right now. He's a good fighter but I'd pick several fighters to beat him right now.
Twenty20Dollars
3/25/12 2:23:35PM
If there was no GSP, Fitch would be champ and Kos won't fight Fitch.

Still with my other reason though, I see quite a few WW's beating Kos.
Pookie
3/25/12 7:46:16PM
Neh, i think he would still have his flaws exposed against the less-than-elite of the division. His Bjj has holes, his stand-up has holes, and his wrestling -though elite- is stoppable.

I'd still pick Maia to beat Koscheck.
Bubbles
3/25/12 8:33:37PM

Posted by Cooler






I would pick Kos over Thiago the next 10 times they fight. And iirc Kos took the Alves fight on short notice...he is more complete now than he was back then (Alves is still just a striker who is still bad off his back) and would take Alves down repeatedly to a win.

to the question at hand, yes Kos would have held the title but don't think he would be as dominant. Fitch most likely would be the long reigning champ. If Fitch and Kos were to ever fight each other, I would pick Koscheck to win
Aether
3/25/12 9:06:01PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Cooler






I would pick Kos over Thiago the next 10 times they fight. And iirc Kos took the Alves fight on short notice...he is more complete now than he was back then (Alves is still just a striker who is still bad off his back) and would take Alves down repeatedly to a win.

to the question at hand, yes Kos would have held the title but don't think he would be as dominant. Fitch most likely would be the long reigning champ. If Fitch and Kos were to ever fight each other, I would pick Koscheck to win



These fights also happened over 3 years ago. Koscheck would be a pretty big favourite over both of these guys in a rematch.
infestructure
3/26/12 12:07:33AM
I also think he would avenge his losses. He was a fool to stand with Thiago, and especially Alves, but not his game has evolved (not sure what happened in the Mike Pierce fight) to the point where he can strike with the best of them, or take them to the mat. However, he got a bad matchup in Hendricks, who is (was) a dark horse, and I think he will smash Kos, and then hopefully GSP..

But the main point I was trying to make, is a lot of casual fans write Kos off, when he has merely been fighting in GSP's shadow. He will never be champ, but I wish he got more respect as a fighter.
KungFuMaster
3/26/12 12:25:22AM

Posted by infestructure

I also think he would avenge his losses. He was a fool to stand with Thiago, and especially Alves, but not his game has evolved (not sure what happened in the Mike Pierce fight) to the point where he can strike with the best of them, or take them to the mat. However, he got a bad matchup in Hendricks, who is (was) a dark horse, and I think he will smash Kos, and then hopefully GSP..

But the main point I was trying to make, is a lot of casual fans write Kos off, when he has merely been fighting in GSP's shadow. He will never be champ, but I wish he got more respect as a fighter.



He is probably at the bottom of the top 5 or lower for me in terms of rankings - but I think a lot of fans despise him because of the attitude he has willfully displayed. According to his interviews with Rogan, he is purposely playing the bad guy but some would argue the bad boy persona is genuine.
cowcatcher
3/26/12 9:40:21AM

Posted by sbulldavid

It would be a merry go round without GSP and Kos would probably one of many champions.



I think this is the simple short answer that I'd go with.
Cooler
3/26/12 1:22:17PM

Posted by Aether


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Cooler






I would pick Kos over Thiago the next 10 times they fight. And iirc Kos took the Alves fight on short notice...he is more complete now than he was back then (Alves is still just a striker who is still bad off his back) and would take Alves down repeatedly to a win.

to the question at hand, yes Kos would have held the title but don't think he would be as dominant. Fitch most likely would be the long reigning champ. If Fitch and Kos were to ever fight each other, I would pick Koscheck to win



These fights also happened over 3 years ago. Koscheck would be a pretty big favourite over both of these guys in a rematch.



Paulo Thiago yes he'd be a favorite and probably rightly so but Thiago Alves, hell no.

Alves beat his ass and Josh tried getting him down, couldnt. Josh's wrestling is the same, his jitz hasnt changed, his hands and defense have gotten worse, he was a punching bag in his 3 last fights!! the only improvement would be his LnP skills have jumped to Fitchian levels. Hendricks for example is a horrible matchup for him, if he cant get Hendricks down he's gotta go tit for tat with him and me thinky that wont go well for him.

Koscheck would've never held the title with Fitch and Alves around.
bjj1605
3/26/12 5:38:01PM
I don't think he would've ever held the belt even without GSP.

Maybe won it and lost it right away....still unlikely.

He'd be in the exact same spot. Able to beat most WW's but almost always gonna lose to the best.

His game is still pretty basic. Takedown's and overhand rights...that's about it.
Adrenaline
3/27/12 4:11:09AM

Posted by Cooler


Paulo Thiago yes he'd be a favorite and probably rightly so but Thiago Alves, hell no.

Alves beat his ass and Josh tried getting him down, couldnt. Josh's wrestling is the same, his jitz hasnt changed, his hands and defense have gotten worse, he was a punching bag in his 3 last fights!! the only improvement would be his LnP skills have jumped to Fitchian levels. Hendricks for example is a horrible matchup for him, if he cant get Hendricks down he's gotta go tit for tat with him and me thinky that wont go well for him.

Koscheck would've never held the title with Fitch and Alves around.




He took the fight on less than two weeks notice, what about that don't you understand? I'm not saying that he would walk through Alves in a rematch but to just say "he got his ass beat" and disregard how little time he had to prepare for Thiago when he thought his next opponent was Yoshida in December is just silly. Thiago was already preparing for a strong wrestler in Diego Sanchez and thats a big advantage because Koscheck literally had a week and a half to make weight and prepare for a world class guy like Thiago Alves. It would have been a lot closer fight if Kos had a full training camp. He stepped up to the plate on short notice and fell short.

To answer the question though, yes Koscheck would have been a champ without GSP around but I don't think he would have held it for long.
Cooler
3/27/12 5:11:51PM

Posted by Adrenaline
He took the fight on less than two weeks notice, what about that don't you understand? I'm not saying that he would walk through Alves in a rematch but to just say "he got his ass beat" and disregard how little time he had to prepare for Thiago when he thought his next opponent was Yoshida in December is just silly.



So what, Koscheck is always in fighting shape, he's said so on multiple occassions so quit pretending its such a handicap when he has also won quite a few fights on short notice aka yoshida, hughes, pierce etc. He always takes short notice fights havnt you noticed that? what about that dont you understand? ;p


Posted by Adrenaline
Thiago was already preparing for a strong wrestler in Diego Sanchez and thats a big advantage because Koscheck literally had a week and a half to make weight and prepare for a world class guy like Thiago Alves. It would have been a lot closer fight if Kos had a full training camp. He stepped up to the plate on short notice and fell short.



You're going to attribute his tdd to who he was training for? ugh its hard to take you seriously after that... I mean even though Alves tdd was still elite you claim it was from not only one training camp but for one specific opponent, weak to say the least. What about koschecks shitty gameplanning he tends to show in fights.. What are his options anyway.. takedown, overhand right, clinch up, get jabbed and leg kicked.

Koscheck knew what he was getting into, what a bad copout for a loss duder. Youre not going to hear koscheck say all these excuses because their just your conjectures. He was in fact in fighting shape, ready to go, i remember the interviews. And this was fought for the #1 contendership basically, why not take the fuckin fight? In shape and for a world title shot? damn what a handicap, poor koscheck, if only he had used his LnP...oh well
Aether
3/27/12 8:19:37PM
I find it kind of ridiculous that you don't think a proper training camp where you train for a specific fighter makes a difference in how you perform, especially in the absolute highest echelons of the division. "In shape" is considerably different than "well prepared".

I hope this rematch happens, I would gladly bet with you on it.
bjj1605
3/27/12 8:31:47PM

Posted by Aether

I find it kind of ridiculous that you don't think a proper training camp where you train for a specific fighter makes a difference in how you perform, especially in the absolute highest echelons of the division. "In shape" is considerably different than "well prepared".

I hope this rematch happens, I would gladly bet with you on it.



Then again, he accepted the fight. He knew how long he had to prepare.

If he wasn't able to prepare appropriately to be confident in his abilities, he shouldn't have taken the fight.

He obviously thought he could win at the time.

It's easy to make excuses after the fact.
SpiderSilva
3/27/12 8:42:00PM
I used to think it was Fitch and sense Hendricks beat the #2 UFC WW(for what seems like forever) Johny Hendricks is the current WW champion in a GSPless world. NOT Carlos Condit
Adrenaline
3/28/12 12:10:05AM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Aether

I find it kind of ridiculous that you don't think a proper training camp where you train for a specific fighter makes a difference in how you perform, especially in the absolute highest echelons of the division. "In shape" is considerably different than "well prepared".

I hope this rematch happens, I would gladly bet with you on it.



Then again, he accepted the fight. He knew how long he had to prepare.

If he wasn't able to prepare appropriately to be confident in his abilities, he shouldn't have taken the fight.

He obviously thought he could win at the time.

It's easy to make excuses after the fact.




Nobody is making excuses for him. Just stating the fact that he took the fight on short notice and that plays a factor and to deny that is asinine. Cooler is always spewing shit, so thats whatever. I wasn't trying to discredit Thiago's win in the slightest, he is a bad matchup for Kos period because of his sick TDD but it would have been a much closer fight had Koscheck had time to prepare. And its easy to say he shouldn't have taken the fight if he didn't think he was ready but its no secret that the UFC rewards fighters who step up and help them save a spot on a card (and black ball those who are not team players), what was he supposed to do, tell them that they have to scrap a main card slot and that he didn't want a title shot? Harder said than done.

Koscheck lost, its whatever, and he eventually got a title shot anyway so its kind of a mute point but to deny that having basically 10 days to prepare for a guy like Thiago Alves played a big part in the fight is crazy. Aether summed it up, being in shape and being prepared for an elite guy are two very different things.
Pookie
3/28/12 2:57:06AM

Posted by Aether

I find it kind of ridiculous that you don't think a proper training camp where you train for a specific fighter makes a difference in how you perform, especially in the absolute highest echelons of the division. "In shape" is considerably different than "well prepared".

I hope this rematch happens, I would gladly bet with you on it.




First of all, i agree with everyone in this debate on at least one thing.

Secondly, bet me instead. Thiago would still whoop that ass.
prophecy033
3/28/12 3:23:02AM
Kos probably would have held the Belt at some point if there was mo GSP. I don't think he would have been as dominate as GSP or Hughes tho
Cooler
3/28/12 4:46:13PM

Posted by Adrenaline


Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Aether

I find it kind of ridiculous that you don't think a proper training camp where you train for a specific fighter makes a difference in how you perform, especially in the absolute highest echelons of the division. "In shape" is considerably different than "well prepared".

I hope this rematch happens, I would gladly bet with you on it.



Then again, he accepted the fight. He knew how long he had to prepare.

If he wasn't able to prepare appropriately to be confident in his abilities, he shouldn't have taken the fight.

He obviously thought he could win at the time.

It's easy to make excuses after the fact.




Nobody is making excuses for him. Just stating the fact that he took the fight on short notice and that plays a factor and to deny that is asinine. Cooler is always spewing shit, so thats whatever. I wasn't trying to discredit Thiago's win in the slightest, he is a bad matchup for Kos period because of his sick TDD but it would have been a much closer fight had Koscheck had time to prepare. And its easy to say he shouldn't have taken the fight if he didn't think he was ready but its no secret that the UFC rewards fighters who step up and help them save a spot on a card (and black ball those who are not team players), what was he supposed to do, tell them that they have to scrap a main card slot and that he didn't want a title shot? Harder said than done.

Koscheck lost, its whatever, and he eventually got a title shot anyway so its kind of a mute point but to deny that having basically 10 days to prepare for a guy like Thiago Alves played a big part in the fight is crazy. Aether summed it up, being in shape and being prepared for an elite guy are two very different things.



Denial has nothing to do with it, you're being a stubborn person if you cant see my point about Koscheck being ready and accepting a fight when he was in good shape (his words). And to get a little comedic relief.. what does kos even need more than 10 days for to gameplan? Is he that slow that he didnt know who he was fighting and didnt he know to take him down? or check leg kicks? nope, hardly did any of that stuff a gameplanning fighter does.. did he forget to take Alves down in the fight? quit being ridiculous

And in 2012 he would still probably beat koscheck because he's actually evolved while koscheck has slowly gotten less impressive. At least kos cared about fighting back then in 07, despite what ive been saying i do find the majority of his fight exciting and i dont hate him. But now he cant get motivated unless its a big fight like gsp/hughes and you can hear it in his voice, he's like diaz getting sick of the press/questions. Reminds me of the girl who had sex on ecstacy too much and now cant fuck without it, all the dopamine in his head seems to be gone.
aussiemma
3/29/12 1:55:16AM
maybe a couple of years ago....but no way now. the ufc is so freakin stacked atm !!! and its only going to get more competitive. waterboy, ellenberger etc just to name a few.
bjj1605
3/29/12 11:57:46PM

Posted by Adrenaline


Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Aether

I find it kind of ridiculous that you don't think a proper training camp where you train for a specific fighter makes a difference in how you perform, especially in the absolute highest echelons of the division. "In shape" is considerably different than "well prepared".

I hope this rematch happens, I would gladly bet with you on it.



Then again, he accepted the fight. He knew how long he had to prepare.

If he wasn't able to prepare appropriately to be confident in his abilities, he shouldn't have taken the fight.

He obviously thought he could win at the time.

It's easy to make excuses after the fact.




Nobody is making excuses for him. Just stating the fact that he took the fight on short notice and that plays a factor and to deny that is asinine. Cooler is always spewing shit, so thats whatever. I wasn't trying to discredit Thiago's win in the slightest, he is a bad matchup for Kos period because of his sick TDD but it would have been a much closer fight had Koscheck had time to prepare. And its easy to say he shouldn't have taken the fight if he didn't think he was ready but its no secret that the UFC rewards fighters who step up and help them save a spot on a card (and black ball those who are not team players), what was he supposed to do, tell them that they have to scrap a main card slot and that he didn't want a title shot? Harder said than done.

Koscheck lost, its whatever, and he eventually got a title shot anyway so its kind of a mute point but to deny that having basically 10 days to prepare for a guy like Thiago Alves played a big part in the fight is crazy. Aether summed it up, being in shape and being prepared for an elite guy are two very different things.



No hard feelings man. I think we mostly agree.

Short notice definitely affects a fighter. I agree with that.

I also agree that it isn't a valid excuse for the fighter to use (but that doesn't mean its not a valid factor for YOU to mention.)

The only place we might disagree??

I think Alves would win a rematch.
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