Kim Winslow admitted there was no verbal submission from John Albert

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Shawn91111
6/7/12 6:27:03PM
"Gerry Rodriguez: Did Kim Winslow say anything after the fight? Did she come over and say, "Sorry, I blew it," any type of interaction?

John Albert: No, none at all. There was nothing at all. All I know was the story of I grunted trying to get out of the armbar, she stopped it, I kept yelling "I didn't tap, I didn't tap!" and she said, "You verbally tapped," and I yelled, "No I didn't, no I didn't!" and Dennis Hallman, being the good coach that he is, went in and started yelling at her and after the fight brought her down to the commission and said, "Explain to me what happened? He didn't tap" and she goes, "Well he didn't verbally tap. I was afraid for his arm." Those were her exact words in front of the commission. It's however they want to take it."









LINK
infestructure
6/7/12 6:30:32PM
How long before she seriously injures someone or their career with her foolish decisions?

Win-Slow gota go
Wallass
6/7/12 6:32:25PM
This girls gotta go!
cowcatcher
6/7/12 6:33:12PM
She's there to be eye candy, pure and simple.



Tell me you wouldn't want to make a deposit where she's pointing.
Twenty20Dollars
6/7/12 7:23:46PM
I also read this and have to post this part below. Albert grunted or whatever, made a noise. Kim should have been at a different angle as Albert said after Brian read his the rule.

-------------------------

Brian Hemminger (MMAmania.com): I think, as far as I know in the rulebooks, if you scream or make a loud noise, the ref can step in and put a stop to it because they'll assume that it's your body naturally reacting to the pain or something like that.

John Albert: I'll really have to look that up because I don't think that's a rule. I know you have to physically tap three times, you have to yell "tap" or "I quit." You can yell at any time. You can't stop a fight just because someone yells. What if I yell at your just standing there. I understand that your body might be taking over, but I don't know. In my opinion, you should never stop a fight unless someone says, "I stop" where the fighter is cognitively choosing to stop. Just because I go "Ungh!" that's not me thinking I want to stop.

Brian Hemminger (MMAmania.com): Okay, here. This is from the UFC's website so it's as legit as it gets. It says, "A fight can be stopped by a referee due to a fighter screaming in agony if they're in a submission. Now I don't think you did. In my opinion, you weren't screaming in agony. That was just a grunt to get out of position. I think [Winslow] took liberty with the rule and made a judgement call because nobody heard it. It must have been a really light grunt and she just jdove in. That's the way I saw it.

FastKnockout
6/7/12 7:57:28PM
This isn't the first time it's happened. Let's just throw out the rule.
pmoney
6/7/12 8:15:01PM
If you're afraid, be it as a fighter, referee, or judge you have no place in the sport. Now John Albert has a loss on his record because Kim Winslow was afraid for him.
Gogoplatapus
6/7/12 8:30:08PM
The point of this all is that she admitted no verbal tap and stopped the fight because she feared for his arm.
Bubbles
6/7/12 8:41:36PM

Posted by Gogoplatapus

The point of this all is that she admitted no verbal tap and stopped the fight because she feared for his arm.


if this is the case, then every fight Paul Harris grabs someone's leg the fight should be stopped that instant
george112
6/7/12 8:43:11PM
The ref is there for 2 things.

Fighter safety
And enforcing the rules of the octagon

While I still don't agree with her stoppage I can still say she did her job.

This is a weird situation and under the circumstance I can't really fault her for what she did.

However as far as being at the right angle and what not flame away at her
infestructure
6/7/12 8:48:02PM
"Well he didn't verbally tap. I was afraid for his arm."

Should be changed to a no contest. And immediate rematch, was a great fight before the insane woman took it over.
prophecy033
6/7/12 8:54:54PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Gogoplatapus

The point of this all is that she admitted no verbal tap and stopped the fight because she feared for his arm.


if this is the case, then every fight Paul Harris grabs someone's leg the fight should be stopped that instant

I'd throw Mir in there also, he's stacking up a nice collection of arms
george112
6/7/12 8:55:51PM

Posted by infestructure

"Well he didn't verbally tap. I was afraid for his arm."

Should be changed to a no contest. And immediate rematch, was a great fight before the insane woman took it over.



I agree

It should be changed to a no contest.


BUT wouldn't changing it to a NC totally undermine the time that is already written??

If so. Do away with the rule to avoid some fighters getting the short end of the stick
Twenty20Dollars
6/7/12 8:56:23PM
If this was changed to a no contest, then so would TJ Grant vs Shane Roller and Sonnen vs Filho.

The rule is probably there to help protect the fighter and help the referee protect the fighter.

While maybe not a great rule, it is a rule.

Fighters need to be more informed on the rule, which I thought they were told before the fight.

And ref's need to get at better angles and learn about the submissions.
prophecy033
6/7/12 8:57:18PM

Posted by cowcatcher

She's there to be eye candy, pure and simple.



Tell me you wouldn't want to make a deposit where she's pointing.

that's funny you put that up Cowcatcher cuz that's the same face I make when I see her
george112
6/7/12 8:58:48PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

If this was changed to a no contest, then so would TJ Grant vs Shane Roller and Sonnen vs Filho.

The rule is probably there to help protect the fighter and help the referee protect the fighter.

While maybe not a great rule, it is a rule.

Fighters need to be more informed on the rule, which I thought they were told before the fight.

And ref's need to get at better angles and learn about the submissions.




This^^^
prophecy033
6/7/12 9:01:29PM

Posted by george112


Posted by infestructure

"Well he didn't verbally tap. I was afraid for his arm."

Should be changed to a no contest. And immediate rematch, was a great fight before the insane woman took it over.



I agree

It should be changed to a no contest.


BUT wouldn't changing it to a NC totally undermine the time that is already written??

If so. Do away with the rule to avoid some fighters getting the short end of the stick

The refs still need to protect the fights from themselves. Case and point, Tim Sylvia wanting to continue fighting with a broken forearm given to him from a Mir armbar. Had Herb Dean not stopped it who knows how long he woulda keep fighting, potentially doing irreparable damage
BeeR
6/7/12 9:15:27PM
No Contest.
she was not in any sort of position to see if he was in danger of breaking his arm., had she been on the other side, she would have an argument. Herb was standing right there looking at Tims arm when it broke and absolutely made the right call in stopping the fight, Kim was out of position to judge the danger to Albert, she was out of position to see a tap, and she was out of position to even see his mouth move while "verbally submitting"

bad call, bad ref.
Gogoplatapus
6/7/12 9:46:28PM

Posted by prophecy033


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Gogoplatapus

The point of this all is that she admitted no verbal tap and stopped the fight because she feared for his arm.


if this is the case, then every fight Paul Harris grabs someone's leg the fight should be stopped that instant

I'd throw Mir in there also, he's stacking up a nice collection of arms



haha yup both guys for sure. So can this be overturned if she basically admitted to shitting the bed?
FastKnockout
6/7/12 10:05:56PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

If this was changed to a no contest, then so would TJ Grant vs Shane Roller and Sonnen vs Filho.

The rule is probably there to help protect the fighter and help the referee protect the fighter.

While maybe not a great rule, it is a rule.

Fighters need to be more informed on the rule, which I thought they were told before the fight.

And ref's need to get at better angles and learn about the submissions.



Didn't Sonnen yell "tap" though?
bjj1605
6/7/12 11:20:46PM

Posted by FastKnockout


Posted by Twenty20Dollars

If this was changed to a no contest, then so would TJ Grant vs Shane Roller and Sonnen vs Filho.

The rule is probably there to help protect the fighter and help the referee protect the fighter.

While maybe not a great rule, it is a rule.

Fighters need to be more informed on the rule, which I thought they were told before the fight.

And ref's need to get at better angles and learn about the submissions.



Didn't Sonnen yell "tap" though?



No, he didn't. After the fight he claimed that it should not have been stopped.

I agree that in this case it was a bad stoppage.

I do not agree that this rule should be thrown away.

There are a lot of people who have to much ego to tap. They think they can get out, they don't want to admit they've lost...whatever. Point is, the ref is there to protect the fighters, even from themselves if need be.

I know plenty of people who have gotten choked unconscious in training because they were too tough to tap.

Prophecy brought up Tim Sylvia, and that should be case in point.

Sylvia didn't tap even though his arm snapped in TWO places. When you've got adrenaline going, sometimes you can't feel the pain. That doesn't mean that the submission is doing less damage to your body.

Winslow made a bad call in this case. There will probably be other bad calls based on this rule.

From a fan's point of view, it's not satisfying ending to the fight.

Neither of those things change the fact that this rule is necessary to protect the health of the fighters.
Bubbles
6/7/12 11:46:27PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

If this was changed to a no contest, then so would TJ Grant vs Shane Roller and Sonnen vs Filho.


as should Danzig vs Wiman I
grappler0000
6/8/12 12:00:09AM

Posted by prophecy033


Posted by george112


Posted by infestructure

"Well he didn't verbally tap. I was afraid for his arm."

Should be changed to a no contest. And immediate rematch, was a great fight before the insane woman took it over.



I agree

It should be changed to a no contest.


BUT wouldn't changing it to a NC totally undermine the time that is already written??

If so. Do away with the rule to avoid some fighters getting the short end of the stick

The refs still need to protect the fights from themselves. Case and point, Tim Sylvia wanting to continue fighting with a broken forearm given to him from a Mir armbar. Had Herb Dean not stopped it who knows how long he woulda keep fighting, potentially doing irreparable damage



I know what you're saying, but a broken bone and being in a precarious position are two different things. The ref would stop the fight over a broken arm whether it resulted from a sub or not.
grappler0000
6/8/12 12:03:31AM
There are refs in the business that explain to fighters in the locker room that they'll stop the fight if they groan or yell while in a submission. If she explained this to Albert pre-fight, I'll change my mind on the matter. However, if she did not, I believe she was in the wrong. The fact that she basically said she F'd up though, leads me to believe that she did not.
Pookie
6/8/12 12:06:43AM
There is bound to be dozens of competent refs waiting for the call up to the big times. Cut those off who dont meet the standard. Demote her to lower level events. My opinion.
FlashyG
6/8/12 12:43:13AM
We're all kind of reacting to Hearsay.

We have no idea what Kim Winslow actually said to the commission we only have the word of the party that feels wronged and he wasn't even in the room at the time she allegedly admitted there was no verbal submission.

He's relaying the word of his coach, and we have no idea if he's relaying it correctly or if Hallman relayed it to Albert correctly.

I'm not a huge fan of Winslow but commissions exist for this very reason, I'd like to hear what they have to say about it before calling for her head.
infestructure
6/8/12 4:15:55AM

Posted by FlashyG

We're all kind of reacting to Hearsay.

We have no idea what Kim Winslow actually said to the commission we only have the word of the party that feels wronged and he wasn't even in the room at the time she allegedly admitted there was no verbal submission.

He's relaying the word of his coach, and we have no idea if he's relaying it correctly or if Hallman relayed it to Albert correctly.

I'm not a huge fan of Winslow but commissions exist for this very reason, I'd like to hear what they have to say about it before calling for her head.



Stop being so damn logical, this is a WITCH HUNT!
aussiemma
6/8/12 4:41:20AM

Posted by cowcatcher

She's there to be eye candy, pure and simple.



Tell me you wouldn't want to make a deposit where she's pointing.



lol you call that eye candy !
Chieftan1997
6/8/12 10:11:06AM
She's the worst ref at the UFC level right now. She has no business being in there and they need to get rid of her before either someone gets hurt because of her or she stops another fight when she shouldn't. I can't stand her and it seems like they just have her in there for equal rights or some crap, because she obviously sucks!!!
prozacnation1978
6/8/12 12:09:29PM
At least she admitted to it. Most refs wouldn't
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