Kawajiri vs Sherk ???

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Jeffanori-Gomi
2/19/07 9:46:19PM
Who would win Kawajiri or Sherk....

Under pride rules I think Kawajiri would take it because he could punish Sherk for bad takedown attempts. I think it would be a good fight but Kawajiri would win via UD

Under UFC rules however, I think Sherk would beat Kawajiri because he could shoot for a sloppy takedown and not get punished, then cut open Kawajiri with elbows.

I think both guys are strong wrestlers with similar styles (both are little stronger/weaker in different areas) I think Kawajiri's striking is a little better just because I havent seen too much of Sherks standup, but Sherk's takedowns are up there with anyones. I think it would be a great bout

your thoughts
hippysmacker
2/19/07 10:12:46PM
I think your point about rules is the clincher. Are elbow's allowed? that benefit's Sherk more to me. If knees on the ground are allowed I think that benefits Crusher more. Is it in a cage, or ring? Toss up depending on rules to me. Too many variables. I will say Kawajiri is definately better on the feet IMO. Both are really tough and can take a lot of punishment. Both are explosive. In the clinch Kawajiri has good knees, something Sherk has rarely shown. While Sherk, has very good technical boxing and keeps his hands up, I've never seen anything that makes me think he has KO power. Kawajiri definately does. Both have good GnP, but Sherk's is really helped by the cage, and not as busy on top. Kawajiri is much more prone to mounting someone and pounding them out. While Crusher doesn't spend a lot of time on his back, he is far better from it than Sherk. I think in the UFC , under currrent rules Sherk probably grinds out 7 out of 10. Under pride rules Kawajiri takes him 9 out of 10. There would be a lot of standups from rope entanglements, and yellow card possibilities in Pride. Each one benefit's Kawajiri. . I don't think this will ever happen though, because each fighter is under a rules system that benefit's their fighting style hugely. Kawajir will probably never come to the UFC, without at least knees on the ground being added. Sherk uses the cage to his advantage better than most,and needs it to compliment his fighting style IMO.
ac_gi
2/19/07 10:58:54PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

...Under UFC rules however, I think Sherk would beat Kawajiri because he could shoot for a sloppy takedown and not get punished, then cut open Kawajiri with elbows.



What about the UFC rules allow a "sloppy takedown?"

Sherk is a phenomenal wrestler. He would get a takedown in the UFC or Pride. Actually the UFC's cage is more suited for the striker because of the size and the circular design of the cage allows the striker to circle out easier. In a ring a striker can get stuck in the corner, and then easily taken down. This is why you see more grappling in Pride and more striking in the UFC.(that and the fact that there is more grapplers in Pride)

Sherk has only lost 2 times. Hughes and GSP. GSP was the only one to KO him, and that wasn't standing (elbow to the nose, Gnp style). I say Sherk wins the majority of the time in both locations.
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/20/07 12:58:56AM

Posted by ac_gi


Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

...Under UFC rules however, I think Sherk would beat Kawajiri because he could shoot for a sloppy takedown and not get punished, then cut open Kawajiri with elbows.



What about the UFC rules allow a "sloppy takedown?"

Sherk is a phenomenal wrestler. He would get a takedown in the UFC or Pride. Actually the UFC's cage is more suited for the striker because of the size and the circular design of the cage allows the striker to circle out easier. In a ring a striker can get stuck in the corner, and then easily taken down. This is why you see more grappling in Pride and more striking in the UFC.(that and the fact that there is more grapplers in Pride)

Sherk has only lost 2 times. Hughes and GSP. GSP was the only one to KO him, and that wasn't standing (elbow to the nose, Gnp style). I say Sherk wins the majority of the time in both locations.



The UFC favors wrestlers because when a person shoots in for a takedown, their opponent can't knee or kick them in the face.

Watch Gomi vs r. Gracie link You can't do that in the UFC It would be illegal

Im not saying Sherk has sloppy takedowns, Im just saying that if he did go for a sloppy takedown it would be Ralph Gracie pt 2
OB_Juan
2/20/07 1:28:44AM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

The UFC favors wrestlers because when a person shoots in for a takedown, their opponent can't knee or kick them in the face.

Watch Gomi vs r. Gracie link You can't do that in the UFC It would be illegal

Im not saying Sherk has sloppy takedowns, Im just saying that if he did go for a sloppy takedown it would be Ralph Gracie pt 2



The knee that initially dropped Ralph would be perfectly legal in the UFC. Instead of finishing w/ more knees you'd just have to use punches/bows/hammerstrikes.
ac_gi
2/20/07 1:54:09AM

Posted by OB_Juan

... perfectly legal ...



Yeah, it wasn't even close to being illegal.
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/20/07 2:01:47PM

Posted by ac_gi


Posted by OB_Juan

... perfectly legal ...



Yeah, it wasn't even close to being illegal.




Do you guys grapple? when you have a guy in the north/south position you need both underhooks in to control the head and shoulders or escape is really easy.
So going for punches/elbows wouldn't be nearly as effective as knee strikes. As for it not even being close to illegal, please watch it again ac_gi because the first strike was legal, but all the rest were not. So deleting the previous quote in order to fit your argument doesnt make it right.

my point is for Kawajiri to win in the grappling department he would need to control Sherks head and shoulders and finish him off in the same way Gomi did. The frist strike would be legal in UFC But all the other ones wouldnt be.

How many times have you guys seen fights end up in the north/south position in the UFC where if that was in pride the fight would be over due to knee strikes?

Tim Silvia, Jeff Monson Heath Herring's last fight, etc.

I know you love Sean Sherk, and I think hes great too Im not trying to take anything away from him Im just merely stating a way in which Kawajiri could beat him.
Snacks
2/20/07 4:46:44PM
Kawajiri has quite possibly the sickest takedown defense in all of MMA. Not to mention he wouldn't be phased by Sherk's little t-rex punches. Top it all off with the fact that Kawajiri has expressed his wish to be able to use everything, and actually trains elbow strikes and apparently headbutts and you get a loss for Sherk.
Snacks
2/20/07 4:49:04PM

Posted by ac_gi


Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

...Under UFC rules however, I think Sherk would beat Kawajiri because he could shoot for a sloppy takedown and not get punished, then cut open Kawajiri with elbows.



What about the UFC rules allow a "sloppy takedown?"

Sherk is a phenomenal wrestler. He would get a takedown in the UFC or Pride. Actually the UFC's cage is more suited for the striker because of the size and the circular design of the cage allows the striker to circle out easier. In a ring a striker can get stuck in the corner, and then easily taken down. This is why you see more grappling in Pride and more striking in the UFC.(that and the fact that there is more grapplers in Pride)

Sherk has only lost 2 times. Hughes and GSP. GSP was the only one to KO him, and that wasn't standing (elbow to the nose, Gnp style). I say Sherk wins the majority of the time in both locations.



Sherk's also only fought 2 elite fighters, and both times he's lost, so I'm not sure why you brought that up.
OB_Juan
2/20/07 5:24:42PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi



Do you guys grapple? when you have a guy in the north/south position you need both underhooks in to control the head and shoulders or escape is really easy.
So going for punches/elbows wouldn't be nearly as effective as knee strikes.



When a guy is barely conscious from a huge shot like that I don't think it would matter what you hit him with as long as you go for the kill and make the ref stop it.
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/20/07 6:34:05PM

Posted by OB_Juan


Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi



Do you guys grapple? when you have a guy in the north/south position you need both underhooks in to control the head and shoulders or escape is really easy.
So going for punches/elbows wouldn't be nearly as effective as knee strikes.



When a guy is barely conscious from a huge shot like that I don't think it would matter what you hit him with as long as you go for the kill and make the ref stop it.



Your losing perspective here. Sean Sherk>Ralph Gracie. Only hardcore knee strikes is gonna stop Sherk from North/south position. Sherk is a machine and weak punching/elbowing from north/south position aint gonna stop the muscle shark
OB_Juan
2/20/07 6:53:37PM
So then what exactly does Gomi kneeing Ralph have to do w/ an imaginary fight of Kawajiri vs Sherk and what was the purpose of that video again?

OB_Juan
2/20/07 7:01:03PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

Who would win Kawajiri or Sherk....

Under pride rules I think Kawajiri would take it because he could punish Sherk for bad takedown attempts. I think it would be a good fight but Kawajiri would win via UD

Under UFC rules however, I think Sherk would beat Kawajiri because he could shoot for a sloppy takedown and not get punished, then cut open Kawajiri with elbows.

I think both guys are strong wrestlers with similar styles (both are little stronger/weaker in different areas) I think Kawajiri's striking is a little better just because I havent seen too much of Sherks standup, but Sherk's takedowns are up there with anyones. I think it would be a great bout

your thoughts



Quoting just to make sure I get this right. Kawajiri wins a UD under Pride because he could punish Sherk for bad takedowns. OK. Sherk would win via cut TKO in the UFC because Jiri could NOT punish him for sloppy takedowns. OK. Then you go on to say Sherk's takedowns are up there w/ anyone's. So will sloppy takedowns and being able to be punished or not for them be the difference if Sherk's takedowns are up there w/ anybody? This is all very confusing.
xthe_scottx
2/20/07 7:25:43PM
I think what Jeffanori-Gomi is trying to say is that if they fight with PRIDE rules, Kawajiri would be able to use his almost unchallengable takedown defense to stop it from going to the ground and then landing shots to a grounded sherk that the UFC rules wouldn't allow (soccer kicks, stomps etc) thus wining him the fight. But, if this fight was under UFC rules, Sherk could go for a takedown and use the cage to counter Kawajiri's takedown defense. From there, Sherk could throw some very dangerous elbows and win by TKO or Decision.

IMO I would give the fight to Kawajiri in both situations. His wrestling is better and his stiking is much better than Sherk's. I only see this fight ending by decision, but in my head both decisions go to Kawajiri.
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/20/07 10:12:00PM

Posted by xthe_scottx

I think what Jeffanori-Gomi is trying to say is that if they fight with PRIDE rules, Kawajiri would be able to use his almost unchallengable takedown defense to stop it from going to the ground and then landing shots to a grounded sherk that the UFC rules wouldn't allow (soccer kicks, stomps etc) thus wining him the fight. But, if this fight was under UFC rules, Sherk could go for a takedown and use the cage to counter Kawajiri's takedown defense. From there, Sherk could throw some very dangerous elbows and win by TKO or Decision.

IMO I would give the fight to Kawajiri in both situations. His wrestling is better and his stiking is much better than Sherk's. I only see this fight ending by decision, but in my head both decisions go to Kawajiri.



Ya thats basically what I mean. The link was just an example of what may happen if someone goes for a sloppy takedown and the result of that in Pride. So sorry for any confusion, Im not knocking Sherk at all (I think hes a great champ) but you have got to be a little retarded not to acknowledge the fact that the UFC rules favor wrestlers over Pride due to these rule changes.

I mean lay-and-pray is derived from the blanket matches we see in the UFC.

PLZ DONT TAKE THIS AS A UFC VS PRIDE THREAD

xthe_scottx
2/20/07 10:20:50PM
I agree the UFC rules favor wrestlers. Thanks for clarifying.
OB_Juan
2/20/07 11:40:52PM
Regardless of whether the UFC favors wrestlers, I don't think where the fight took place would make any difference. Sherk couldn't get Diaz down so IMO its highly unlikely he gets Jiri down. Jiri wins it either place most likely by dec.
xthe_scottx
2/20/07 11:43:01PM

Posted by xthe_scottx

I think what Jeffanori-Gomi is trying to say is that if they fight with PRIDE rules, Kawajiri would be able to use his almost unchallengable takedown defense to stop it from going to the ground and then landing shots to a grounded sherk that the UFC rules wouldn't allow (soccer kicks, stomps etc) thus wining him the fight. But, if this fight was under UFC rules, Sherk could go for a takedown and use the cage to counter Kawajiri's takedown defense. From there, Sherk could throw some very dangerous elbows and win by TKO or Decision.

IMO I would give the fight to Kawajiri in both situations. His wrestling is better and his stiking is much better than Sherk's. I only see this fight ending by decision, but in my head both decisions go to Kawajiri.



I said the same in a previous post.
ac_gi
2/21/07 12:07:35AM
The UFC's cage is larger than the Pride ring. That favors strikers.

There are no distinct corners for a fighter to get caught in,like a ring, that also favors strikers.

A stiker can use the cage to help himself stand back up. That favors strikers.

Knee's to the head of a downed opponent benefits wrestlers the most. Coleman anyone?

Result,
IMO Kawajiri would have a better chance at beating Sherk in the UFC.
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/21/07 12:55:20AM
great posts thx for your input guys,

So general consensus is Jiri in UFC or Pride?
xthe_scottx
2/21/07 6:56:04PM

Posted by ac_gi

The UFC's cage is larger than the Pride ring. That favors strikers.

There are no distinct corners for a fighter to get caught in,like a ring, that also favors strikers.

A stiker can use the cage to help himself stand back up. That favors strikers.

Knee's to the head of a downed opponent benefits wrestlers the most. Coleman anyone?

Result,
IMO Kawajiri would have a better chance at beating Sherk in the UFC.



The reason I say that the UFC rules favor wrestlers is this:
First, soccer kicks and stomps aren't allowed which is advantagous to wrestlers because if they go for a sloppy takedown, they will not pay for it but taking a lot of damage from kicks.
Second, the use of elbow strikes is allowed so that now a wrestler can throw pinpoint strikes while using this as a distraction to pass guard.
Third, a person cannot grab the cage so a striker can't use it to get up but a wrestler can push their opponent up against the cage while on the ground thus allowing less maneuverability for the opponent. Couture anyone?

Disclaimer: I do not in any way think the UFC is better than PRIDE. They are both equally great and I am not a organization nuthugger.
ac_gi
2/21/07 7:32:39PM

Posted by xthe_scottx


Posted by ac_gi

The UFC's cage is larger than the Pride ring. That favors strikers.

There are no distinct corners for a fighter to get caught in,like a ring, that also favors strikers.

A stiker can use the cage to help himself stand back up. That favors strikers.

Knee's to the head of a downed opponent benefits wrestlers the most. Coleman anyone?

Result,
IMO Kawajiri would have a better chance at beating Sherk in the UFC.



The reason I say that the UFC rules favor wrestlers is this:
First, soccer kicks and stomps aren't allowed which is advantagous to wrestlers because if they go for a sloppy takedown, they will not pay for it but taking a lot of damage from kicks.
Second, the use of elbow strikes is allowed so that now a wrestler can throw pinpoint strikes while using this as a distraction to pass guard.
Third, a person cannot grab the cage so a striker can't use it to get up but a wrestler can push their opponent up against the cage while on the ground thus allowing less maneuverability for the opponent. Couture anyone?

Disclaimer: I do not in any way think the UFC is better than PRIDE. They are both equally great and I am not a organization nuthugger.



Elbows, without a doubt, is an advantage to wrestlers. Everything else is far fetched IMO.

I guess we will agree to disagree.
pv3Hpv3p
2/22/07 5:11:12PM

Posted by ac_gi

The UFC's cage is larger than the Pride ring. That favors strikers.

There are no distinct corners for a fighter to get caught in,like a ring, that also favors strikers.

A stiker can use the cage to help himself stand back up. That favors strikers.

Knee's to the head of a downed opponent benefits wrestlers the most. Coleman anyone?

Result,
IMO Kawajiri would have a better chance at beating Sherk in the UFC.



Sorry, I have to throw in my two cents, because this doesn't seem to make sense to me...

I would think that a striker tends to favor a ring for it's corners. Any striker would agree that it is nice to have your opponent holed up in the corner while you can strike almost at will (watch any one sided boxing match / kickboxing match)...

Wrestlers press their opponents against the cage, so that they cannot avoid strikes and make it more difficult to advance in your guard... From my experience it is very difficult to stand up when a good wrestler has a hold of you (unless your Chuck), at least it's not as easy as it sounds.

Knees to downed opponents favor anybody who is in the top postition... Therefore if Coleman's TD's are on point he will be on top and can bang away... If someone has a poor TD attempt, like Lutter's first vs A.Silva then he doesn't have the option to hold on to the leg and lay on the mat, and try to ride out the bad TD attempt... He'll get punished for it.

I guess the only thing I really agree with is that the cage is bigger than the ring...
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/22/07 5:58:06PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by ac_gi

The UFC's cage is larger than the Pride ring. That favors strikers.

There are no distinct corners for a fighter to get caught in,like a ring, that also favors strikers.

A stiker can use the cage to help himself stand back up. That favors strikers.

Knee's to the head of a downed opponent benefits wrestlers the most. Coleman anyone?

Result,
IMO Kawajiri would have a better chance at beating Sherk in the UFC.



Sorry, I have to throw in my two cents, because this doesn't seem to make sense to me...

I would think that a striker tends to favor a ring for it's corners. Any striker would agree that it is nice to have your opponent holed up in the corner while you can strike almost at will (watch any one sided boxing match / kickboxing match)...

Wrestlers press their opponents against the cage, so that they cannot avoid strikes and make it more difficult to advance in your guard... From my experience it is very difficult to stand up when a good wrestler has a hold of you (unless your Chuck), at least it's not as easy as it sounds.

Knees to downed opponents favor anybody who is in the top postition... Therefore if Coleman's TD's are on point he will be on top and can bang away... If someone has a poor TD attempt, like Lutter's first vs A.Silva then he doesn't have the option to hold on to the leg and lay on the mat, and try to ride out the bad TD attempt... He'll get punished for it.

I guess the only thing I really agree with is that the cage is bigger than the ring...



agreed
Snacks
2/22/07 6:32:50PM
Another point worth mentioning.

Kawajiri has the best music in MMA, bar none.

Sherk on the other hand, has shitty music.
Trapt1nw0nder
2/22/07 7:21:12PM
Found this picture of him..
Image Attachment(s):
Photo Attachment 1
Trapt1nw0nder
2/22/07 7:22:19PM
ohhhhh SHERK!!!!...my bad...
Punishment
2/23/07 5:07:08PM
Sherks grappling power, when he gets a hold of you would be too much for Kawajiri... I seee this fight going to a decision with Sherk on top of Kawajiri peppering him with shots for 3 Rds... or possibly even a TKO stoppage... if he made Kawajiri work on the ground , he can possibly tire em out and get a dominant position like Mount/Side mount and finish the fight
xthe_scottx
2/23/07 5:40:53PM

Posted by Punishment

Sherks grappling power, when he gets a hold of you would be too much for Kawajiri... I seee this fight going to a decision with Sherk on top of Kawajiri peppering him with shots for 3 Rds... or possibly even a TKO stoppage... if he made Kawajiri work on the ground , he can possibly tire em out and get a dominant position like Mount/Side mount and finish the fight



You're forgetting one thing though, Kawajiri has one of the best takedown defences in the game. I would very very tough for Sherk to get it down even once.
ac_gi
2/23/07 5:57:50PM
Too bad this matchup will never happen.
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