judo, the most underrated martial art in the ufc?

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » General MMA Talk » judo, the most underrated martial art in the ufc?
ufc88
7/23/07 4:37:42PM
judo is a very useful discipline of mma that we really only see karo using to perfection. if more fighters started training more judo their opponents wouldn't expect typical wrestling take downs such as the single leg or double leg. judo is a way more technical way of getting your opponent to the ground with all the different throws and sweeps in the arsenal.... who agrees?
LHK
7/23/07 6:35:53PM
I agree. Sambo has some similar throws as well. I don't think it is that underrated, its just not worshipped because it alone can't do much.
mkiv9secsupra
7/23/07 6:48:55PM

Posted by LHK
its just not worshipped because it alone can't do much.



exactly.... judo can take you down but other than that its not too dangerous..

but doesnt judo teach a few submissions as well? im not quite sure of that.
ufc88
7/23/07 7:05:29PM
yeah it does teach a few submissions but nothing that jiu-jitsu cant outmatch.. im just saying that if some fighters who like to go to the ground would take the time to train judo for a bit for the sole purpose of takedowns, the sport would become much more interesting in that sense, as well as a lot of fighters would not know how to avoid the takedown since a simple sprawl cannot counter the technical hip movement involve in judo throws
ufc88
7/23/07 7:09:16PM
judo is amazing for the soul purpose of takedowns it is just an extra that fighters can include in their arsenal just for getting their opponents to the ground. Karo for example was a judo fighter before entering mma, when he realized in mma you must be well rounded and that judo cant finish a fight, he decided to use judo throws for the takedown and once hes down he utilizes a vicious ground and pound
Aether
7/23/07 7:15:37PM
actually many judo matches do end up in a grappling match. Unless one opponent scores an amazing throw to get Ippon (one full point, winning you the match) which is rare, points are awarded for pinning and submitting your opponents.

Basically there's 4 scores you can get for various attacks. If you pin an opponent for a given period of time (I think 30 seconds) complete an excellent throw which puts the opponent directly on their back, or submit them with a joint lock (I'm pretty sure leglocks are illegal these days) you score Ippon and win the match. If you pin someone for a slightly shorter period of time, I think something like 20 seconds, or score an imperfect throw (which is more common when 2 people are both highly skilled) you get a half point (waza-ari) The only way to get a full point and win by Ippon is by scoring an Ippon directly, or scoring 2 waza-aris. After that there are smaller point values "yuko" and "koka" that are only used as tie-breakers and will not count towards an Ippon. For instance if one fighter scores a waza-ari with a decent throw, and is then pinned by his opponent for 20 seconds, both will be tied at 1w 0y 0k, these smaller point values won't contribute to an Ippon, but if one opponent is in more dominant position he may score a yuko which will act as a tie-breaker when time runs out. Most matches are decided by throws, but grappling is still a large part of the sport.

I agree Judo is hugely underrated in MMA, and I think Yoshida is far more impressive with his throws than karo is. Basically if he gets his hands on you, you're going for a ride. A Judo / Sambo practitioner is probably the best possible mix I can think of since Sambo involves a lot more submission techniques and striking (in combat sambo), and Judo focuses more on the throwing aspect. No Surprise Fedor is a Master of both disciplines.
Mastodon2
7/23/07 7:36:14PM

Posted by ufc88

yeah it does teach a few submissions but nothing that jiu-jitsu cant outmatch..



Judo and JJ share many of the same techniques!


And Karo is quite good at Judo, but he has nothing on Hidehiko Yoshida. Yoshida's Judo is amazing!
silverbullet
2/27/08 8:13:13PM
Judo is underrated in MMA because most of the Judo throws are gi-based and Judo submission game is seriously retarded due to rules restrictions. Unless you are an Olympic-level Judoka like Hideko Yoshida or Karo Parysian, it is extremely diffictult to execute a decent Judo throw without a Gi.

In my personal experience when rolling no-gi it is the lack of the belt that makes Judo throws impossible. With a belt you can control your opponents hips, and set up a great variety of throws. Without the belt it is virtually impossible to get a Judo throw, especially against wrestlers. Wrestlers keep their butt low to the ground, and it really hard to get your hips in there. And I speak from experience.

Basically all Judo throws rely on the gi, and the ground game is very limited. That is probably why Judo is not considered essential in MMA context. Background in freestyle wrestling and BJJ will give you a better edge IMHO. Having said that, Judo alone is an awesome sport if you don't mind being tossed around a bit. I can't seriously practice it anymore after hurting my back a few years ago. That's why I stick to BJJ.

Again, please don't tell me "well Hideko Yoshida did this or that in Pride 287". He's an Olympic gold medalist.
richieb19
2/27/08 8:24:47PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by LHK
its just not worshipped because it alone can't do much.



exactly.... judo can take you down but other than that its not too dangerous..

but doesnt judo teach a few submissions as well? im not quite sure of that.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
LuketheDuke
2/27/08 9:59:02PM
Judo is more known for their throws, not ground work. There are more submissions in BJJ but there are a fair few in judo. Only chokes and armbars are allowed in judo tournaments but there are kneebars and such as well. Judo is becoming more of a sport than a martial art, it concentrates more on standing because a lot of the people who take judo take it for their takedowns for BJJ. After all you start standing in NAGA and other grappling tournaments.

I wouldn't nessesarilly call judo underrated, it's just that not too many people use it effectivly. Karo, Yoshida as people already said, I know Spencer Fischer has some judo (brown belt?), and GSP had a pretty sick judo throw on Hughes recently. Judo is just an added bonus in MMA, but you can pretty much replace it with good wrestling and some BJJ.
fullerene
2/27/08 10:00:17PM
This thread wasn't what I was hoping for. Boy, where to start...
1) Karo Parisyian is a good judoka but, having never competed in the Olympics, his pedigree isn't as good as some others. Karo also very rarely submits his opponents, which is disappointing IMO for a Gokor-trained judoka.
2) There are a lot of judoka in MMA but the majority of them are Japanese or European. It's a big, competitive sport over there the way wrestling is a big, competitive sport in the U.S.. If you go to your average U.S. Judo dojo you'll see a handful of people spread over many sizes and skill levels...it makes more sense to wrestle in the states if you want competitve guys your own weight to work with.
3) Judo and BJJ both come from the same origin: Japanese Jiu Jitsu. They have a similar arsenal of subs (go to judoinfo (http://judoinfo.com/kansetsuwaza.htm) and see how many BJJ subs you can't find there), but the amount of time practicing them is vastly different. In compettions, judo players don't have much time to pull off submission--there isn't the extended guard work you see in BJJ--so this isn't the strong part of their game. I agree that BJJ>Judo on the ground, but not because of a wider aresenal of techniques, but because of the emphasis of their sparring and competitions.
4) Most judo throws do use the gi if it's available, but many can be simulated by taking a grip on the trapezius/shoulder, elbow, wrist and other areas. A lot of the throws are gi-aided wrestling throws. There's some modification needed for a judoka to work without the gi (or a wrestler to work with one), but they are still at a big advantage vs. someone who hasn't done a lot of wrestling/judo.

But I agree with the title of this thread. Judo has been a very overlooked martial art for MMA. The Japanese, who are probably best at it, had a reluctance to send their top guys into MMA comp (or Abu Dhabi) and instead focused on Olympic comp up unitl a few years ago.. Yoshida won his gold medal in 1992--a year before UFC 1. Imagine him entering the UFC, WVC or Pancrase in those early years. I won't say he would have won without question, but he would have been a serious threat to anybody out there.
RMFG_187
2/27/08 10:40:03PM

Posted by fullerene

This thread wasn't what I was hoping for. Boy, where to start...
1) Karo Parisyian is a good judoka but, having never competed in the Olympics, his pedigree isn't as good as some others. Karo also very rarely submits his opponents, which is disappointing IMO for a Gokor-trained judoka.
2) There are a lot of judoka in MMA but the majority of them are Japanese or European. It's a big, competitive sport over there the way wrestling is a big, competitive sport in the U.S.. If you go to your average U.S. Judo dojo you'll see a handful of people spread over many sizes and skill levels...it makes more sense to wrestle in the states if you want competitve guys your own weight to work with.
3) Judo and BJJ both come from the same origin: Japanese Jiu Jitsu. They have a similar arsenal of subs (go to judoinfo (http://judoinfo.com/kansetsuwaza.htm) and see how many BJJ subs you can't find there), but the amount of time practicing them is vastly different. In compettions, judo players don't have much time to pull off submission--there isn't the extended guard work you see in BJJ--so this isn't the strong part of their game. I agree that BJJ>Judo on the ground, but not because of a wider aresenal of techniques, but because of the emphasis of their sparring and competitions.
4) Most judo throws do use the gi if it's available, but many can be simulated by taking a grip on the trapezius/shoulder, elbow, wrist and other areas. A lot of the throws are gi-aided wrestling throws. There's some modification needed for a judoka to work without the gi (or a wrestler to work with one), but they are still at a big advantage vs. someone who hasn't done a lot of wrestling/judo.

But I agree with the title of this thread. Judo has been a very overlooked martial art for MMA. The Japanese, who are probably best at it, had a reluctance to send their top guys into MMA comp (or Abu Dhabi) and instead focused on Olympic comp up unitl a few years ago.. Yoshida won his gold medal in 1992--a year before UFC 1. Imagine him entering the UFC, WVC or Pancrase in those early years. I won't say he would have won without question, but he would have been a serious threat to anybody out there.



Where the hell do u guys get ur MMA PhD's!!!???!!!
silverbullet
2/27/08 11:14:38PM

Posted by fullerene

Yoshida won his gold medal in 1992--a year before UFC 1. Imagine him entering the UFC, WVC or Pancrase in those early years. I won't say he would have won without question, but he would have been a serious threat to anybody out there.



I doubt that the Gracies would have let him within a mile from Royce in those days :)
gartface
2/28/08 12:09:40AM
I agree it's very underrated. It's very useful especially in the clinch, fights can throw and get good position pretty easily.

Btw 9 out of Karo's 18 wins are by submission.
richieb19
2/28/08 1:03:08AM
I made a thread on SD called "the great judo debate" (by PSJJJJ)... look it up
Red-Dragon
2/28/08 8:44:16AM
Im starting Judo next week and I cant wait. Mind you there are no BJJ classes round my way else I might be doing that instead.
gartface
2/28/08 12:23:20PM

Posted by Red-Dragon

Im starting Judo next week and I cant wait. Mind you there are no BJJ classes round my way else I might be doing that instead.



I wish there were judo classes anywhere near me...I'm in bumf*** South Carolina, closest thing would be this run down tae kwon do dojo downtown.
richieb19
2/28/08 8:31:09PM

Posted by Red-Dragon

Im starting Judo next week and I cant wait. Mind you there are no BJJ classes round my way else I might be doing that instead.

You'll be having a different oppinion real soon my friend. Where's the club?
Related Topics