Judo Making It's Rise?

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Lethal
7/7/07 3:12:20PM
I don't want to start any martial arts wars or anything, but watching MMA for the last year or two I've noticed that a number of Judokas have been a lot more successful than other grappling styles, especially BJJ. (ex Parisyan, Dong-Sik, Aoki, Sokoudjou and Misaki). Is BJJ on it's way out and is Judo the next big thing in MMA?
tepid55
7/7/07 3:15:04PM
Aoki is a BJJ fighter from Japan.
Lethal
7/7/07 3:19:16PM
Yeah, I guess he doesn't count...he's also a black belt in Judo though
grappler0000
7/7/07 4:58:14PM
It's not that Judo is any more successful than the other grapping styles, it's the fact that you are seeing more of it. Judo is something that can be difficult to translate into MMA for some. Just as some folks can't successfully transition between Kickboxing and MMA, the same works for Judo as well. There are more rising Judokas than there were a few years ago, but they are not necessarily dominating the other styles.
richieb19
7/7/07 7:11:27PM

Posted by tepid55

Aoki is a BJJ fighter from Japan.

He has a black belt in Judo...
Omega
7/7/07 8:10:39PM
You've also got to remember that BJJ and Judo come from the same place. Not all BJJ is the same, and the same for Judo. It was bound to happen. Judo lost a lot of it's ground game due to the modern sport. BJJ lost a lot of it's throwing aspects due to Helio's influence. I predict a middle ground will be reached where Kosen Judo tries to be.
posterboy
7/9/07 4:21:25PM
I think that many fighters wrote off judo as a less useful style for MMA purposes, and they are seeing the error of that assessment. In Japanese, judo means "gentile way", and while it includes lots of submissions/holds, those are more the focus of BJJ while judo focuses more on throws.

Judo takes a long time to learn (if you want to do it well) and is generally practiced with a gi. Adapting that to no-gi MMA is tough, especially while being punched in the head. That said, judo throws look spectacular in the octagon -- look a fights with Karo, Yoshida, etc., or even UFC 73 with Florian/Robinson. While watching matches, I see plenty of opportunities for fighters to execute judo throws and I hope to see more judo in matches in the future.



posterboy
(25 years of judo and counting....)
Lethal
7/9/07 7:21:43PM

Posted by posterboy

I think that many fighters wrote off judo as a less useful style for MMA purposes, and they are seeing the error of that assessment. In Japanese, judo means "gentile way", and while it includes lots of submissions/holds, those are more the focus of BJJ while judo focuses more on throws.

Judo takes a long time to learn (if you want to do it well) and is generally practiced with a gi. Adapting that to no-gi MMA is tough, especially while being punched in the head. That said, judo throws look spectacular in the octagon -- look a fights with Karo, Yoshida, etc., or even UFC 73 with Florian/Robinson. While watching matches, I see plenty of opportunities for fighters to execute judo throws and I hope to see more judo in matches in the future.



posterboy
(25 years of judo and counting....)



Good Post
hado3
7/14/07 4:42:13AM
theres no way you can say that bjj is on its way out bjj has way more guys with a jiu jitsu background than guys with a judo background, the more you have of one kind the more chances their are of more losses

u name karo, doon sik woo(something like that) soko, masaki

i name shaolin,both nogueria's, aoki,nick diaz,thalez leties, thiago tavares, ricardo arona, matt serra(world Champion), jacare, and the list goes on

judo and wrestling are both purely about takedowns when you use it for mma

Who has Karo lost to-GSP strong wrestler, took him down and controlled him same as Diego

Masaki- even though i thought he was a kickboxer he lost to henderson another wrestler

thats why jiu jitsu guys learn wrestling not judo

posterboy
7/15/07 12:50:02AM

Posted by hado3

theres no way you can say that bjj is on its way out bjj has way more guys with a jiu jitsu background than guys with a judo background, the more you have of one kind the more chances their are of more losses

u name karo, doon sik woo(something like that) soko, masaki

i name shaolin,both nogueria's, aoki,nick diaz,thalez leties, thiago tavares, ricardo arona, matt serra(world Champion), jacare, and the list goes on

judo and wrestling are both purely about takedowns when you use it for mma

Who has Karo lost to-GSP strong wrestler, took him down and controlled him same as Diego

Masaki- even though i thought he was a kickboxer he lost to henderson another wrestler

thats why jiu jitsu guys learn wrestling not judo




Two suggestions: Read more carefully and get your facts straight. Lethat didn't say that BJJ was on the way out -- he asked the question.

To say that BJJ has more guys with a jiu jitsu background doesn't make sense. Do you mean MMA has more guys with BJJ background?

There are lots of other MMA guys with judo backrounds. Hell, Big Nog is a black belt in judo as well as BJJ. Just because lots of MMA guys don't do judo doesn't mean it's not effective.

Judo is not just about takedowns in MMA. Many of the chokes and arm bars used in MMA are used in both judo and jiu jitsu. The kimoura is called ude garami in judo. The scarf hold is called kesa katami. The guillotine is called hadaka jime. That's because BJJ and judo both evolved from jiu jitsu.

Your comparisons of track records is a little thin. Karo has beaten a bunch of guys with BJJ/jiu jitsu skills, including Matt Serra, Nick Diaz, Josh Burkman and others. Yoshida beat plenty of guys in Pride, too, including one of the Gracie family (was it Royce? I forget).

MMA fighters could learn a lot from judo. It's not the be all/end all, but it is probably a lot more effective in the ring than wrestling.
richieb19
7/15/07 3:13:52AM

Posted by hado3

theres no way you can say that bjj is on its way out bjj has way more guys with a jiu jitsu background than guys with a judo background, the more you have of one kind the more chances their are of more losses

u name karo, doon sik woo(something like that) soko, masaki

i name shaolin,both nogueria's, aoki,nick diaz,thalez leties, thiago tavares, ricardo arona, matt serra(world Champion), jacare, and the list goes on

judo and wrestling are both purely about takedowns when you use it for mma

Who has Karo lost to-GSP strong wrestler, took him down and controlled him same as Diego

Masaki- even though i thought he was a kickboxer he lost to henderson another wrestler

thats why jiu jitsu guys learn wrestling not judo



You really shouldn't post about subjects you have almost no knowledge on... First of all, it seems as that you don't even realize that Judo deals with submissions, somehow you've gotten the idea BJJ is the be all end all of submissions. Perhaps you weren't aware that BJJ is nothing more than a development of Judo in Brazil, when Esai Maeda aka Count Koma, who was a student of Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) taught it to the Gracie family in 1915... even Renzo Gracie has gone on record to say that BJJ is pretty much the same as the Kosen style of Judo. In your argument you rattled off some BJJ practitioners that fight in MMA, but what you failed to realize is that Big Nog and Aoki are actually black belts in Judo aswell. In your breakthrough theory on Karo, you say he was taken down and controlled on the ground by Diego, which is far from the truth, it's been a while since I've watched the fight but from what I can remember Karo was doing all the takedowns, and the only real control Diego had was brief moments in backmount where he never came close to actually submitting... and you also said that GSP took him down and controlled him, well he also did that to Sherk, so I guess that wrestling>judo is flawed... also as far as Judo being only useful for takedowns in MMA, why is it that Karo has never come close to being submitted, even by 2 BJJ guys that you named in Diaz and Serra? Plus Judo legends Masahiko Kimura and Hidehiko Yoshida have both scored submission victories over members of the Gracie family in Helio and Royce... also the armlock in which Kimura broke Helio's arm with is now widely known simply as his name, as a sign of respect from the Gracies.

Another bone I'd like to pick is your obvious lack of understanding of the term "wrestling". You said Henderson and GSP are wrestlers, which is true, however they are two completely different style of wrestlers, GSP being folkstyle while Hendo Greco Roman... also you probably didn't know that Judo is also considered a style of amateur wrestling...

By no means is this a post to put you down with, but merely to educate you... BJJ and Judo are both branches in the Jiu Jitsu tree, a martial art created in feudal Japan to the Samurai... but when it comes right down to it, grappling is grappling. The major problem with most fans is that they have fallen into a stereotype that MMA is comprised of BJJ, Muay Thai and wrestling... announcers often refer to any groundwork as BJJ, giving people the wrong idea (A great example would be in Fedor / Lindland, where the announcer said that "Fedor won with the Jiu Jitsu"... when the fact is that Fedor is actually a Sambo/Judo background).

Hopefully this helps...
Rush
7/15/07 10:27:14AM

Posted by posterboy
While watching matches, I see plenty of opportunities for fighters to execute judo throws and I hope to see more judo in matches in the future.





I totally agree. Even with my modest knowledge of judo, I am appalled when I see perfect opportunities for a nice O goshi or Harai goshi and fighters don't capitalize on it. What makes me more sick is when I watch TUF and the coaches tell the guys not to do any of that judo shit because it doesn't work.


Judo is just like anything else in martial arts.... it only doesn't work if you don't know how to do it correctly.
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