Jon Fitch was wrong and still is.

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boarderxcosta
8/9/10 12:43:59AM
Remember what he said after Sonnen beat Marquardt, Okami and Miller ?

“I think closed guard is dead in MMA right now,” “Unless you’re Demian Maia or Shinya Aoki forget about it – you’re either getting up, or getting on top.”

Forget about pulling off submissions from your back nowadays, strong wrestlers like Chael Sonnen – they’ll just pound you out all day long,”

Well that is why jits is the best and always will be. Anderson Silva backed that up last night all the way and reminded us why he is called THE SPIDER.

It's never over.
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bjj1605
8/9/10 1:47:41AM
Anyone who thinks the guard is any less effective than when the gracie family first developed it is delusional. Guys with good top games can neutralize them. Guys with better bottom games can submit those guys with good top games. It comes down to the individuals in the ring. But overall, no, the guard is not dead.

More MMA fighters need to spend more time on their jiu jitsu and guard games.
bsh162007
8/9/10 7:29:17AM
I wouldnt say its dead at all i mean if that were true we would never see any arm bars or triangles u know but that being said its definitely not as affective as it was but that is just the evolution of the sport everyone is starting to learn how to nullify the guard and submissions
KingCmb
8/9/10 9:39:04AM
well idk i do think the guard is less effective but not dead by any means strong wrestlers can avoid sub from the back now because they are trained in bjj cross training to me at least shows wrestling as the dominant art when mixed in its most effective also jon did say guys with really high level jitz could still catch you and anderson is a black belt under the nogeiras



theres and interesting thread on here i think started by jjfreak witch shows the number on subs kos tkos and descions in each weight class and the subs are the lowest % and imo have gotten less frequent while the sport grows
ripley
8/9/10 10:27:38AM
Well it explains why he fights the way he does.
Jackelope
8/9/10 11:58:07AM
Guys with long and lanky frames will always be dangerous in full guard. Look at Stefan Struve at heavyweight. Guy is a triangle monster because his legs are just so damn long.

That being said there has been a noticeable decline in submissions from guard over the years and the statistics don't lie.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/9/10 12:51:03PM

Posted by Jackelope

Guys with long and lanky frames will always be dangerous in full guard. Look at Stefan Struve at heavyweight. Guy is a triangle monster because his legs are just so damn long.

That being said there has been a noticeable decline in submissions from guard over the years and the statistics don't lie.



This

And, it's not that the guard is dead, it's that people are just getting better at BJJ. Anytime you have a bunch of people training for one thing you're going to notice a decline in its effectiveness. There's a reason that the Wishbone/Option isn't the premier system to run in college football anymore.
Jackelope
8/9/10 1:32:29PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

This

And, it's not that the guard is dead, it's that people are just getting better at BJJ. Anytime you have a bunch of people training for one thing you're going to notice a decline in its effectiveness. There's a reason that the Wishbone/Option isn't the premier system to run in college football anymore.



Exactly. That's how you can tell the good sports apart from the bad sports. Good sports are always in a constant state of evolution. Sometimes reverting to old school tactics with minor changes like the triangle offense has done for the Lakers.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/9/10 1:46:09PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

This

And, it's not that the guard is dead, it's that people are just getting better at BJJ. Anytime you have a bunch of people training for one thing you're going to notice a decline in its effectiveness. There's a reason that the Wishbone/Option isn't the premier system to run in college football anymore.



Exactly. That's how you can tell the good sports apart from the bad sports. Good sports are always in a constant state of evolution. Sometimes reverting to old school tactics with minor changes like the triangle offense has done for the Lakers.



It's funny you mention that.

As I typed that I thought to myself "Georgia Tech runs the triple option fairly efficiently" Florida does as well. I guess if you let it die long enough, THEN bring it back, it becomes brutal.
chickmagnet
8/9/10 1:48:20PM
Well Anderson will definitely be on his back against Vitor...when hes unconscious, and convulsioning.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/9/10 1:50:10PM

Posted by chickmagnet

Well Anderson will definitely be on his back against Vitor...when hes unconscious, and convulsioning.



Convulsing is the word you were looking for.
prozacnation1978
8/9/10 3:51:39PM
I don't train mma at all but I sure as hell wouldn't wanna. Throw cauntion in the wind with a lanky fellow with bjj like a silva or kendall grove or struve
RyanC
8/9/10 5:58:38PM
I'm pretty sure I was told Rickson Gracie doesn't believe full guard is effective in MMA anymore. He was at my gym for a seminar a couple months back, and I could have sworn someone told me that he said that.

American wrestlers have really deminished the effectiveness of the closed guard in MMA since many of them are perfectly fine hanging out there. Open guard, Spider guard, and Butterfly guard are becoming a much better option against wrestlers IMO since you can actually keep your opponent at a distance while harassing their base, and you can setup many subs just the same from the variations of open guard as you can from closed.
sbulldavid
8/9/10 8:25:34PM
Closed guard is great as a means of self preservation, but like many have posted before, it has lost some effectiveness in MMA because people no how to defend and avoid submissions.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/9/10 8:47:12PM

Posted by RyanC

I'm pretty sure I was told Rickson Gracie doesn't believe full guard is effective in MMA anymore. He was at my gym for a seminar a couple months back, and I could have sworn someone told me that he said that.

American wrestlers have really deminished the effectiveness of the closed guard in MMA since many of them are perfectly fine hanging out there. Open guard, Spider guard, and Butterfly guard are becoming a much better option against wrestlers IMO since you can actually keep your opponent at a distance while harassing their base, and you can setup many subs just the same from the variations of open guard as you can from closed.



I have really lanky legs and I've always thought that the wrestlers I've rolled with have had problems with recognizing positional movement. Everything seems to be geared toward head and body movement rather than position. This is weird considering they are wrestlers.
thebestout
8/10/10 1:35:36AM
The closed guard has always been an effective offense for very strong bjj players and a way to buy time while taking minimal damage for others. With the evolution of the sport because all tools are needed more often than not you're watching guys that are good at everything but not top level in any discipline. For that reason unless the competitor started out with a top notch bjj background you aren't seeing the best of that discipline in many matches. Another trend I've personally noticed which is kind of irritating is bjj guys neglecting the ground for bad kickboxing matches in pursuit of fight of the night bonuses. So is it dead? No it's just rare because solid submission defense is quicker to pick up than black belt killer submission offense.
Rush
8/16/10 2:35:33PM

Posted by RyanC


American wrestlers have really deminished the effectiveness of the closed guard in MMA since many of them are perfectly fine hanging out there. Open guard, Spider guard, and Butterfly guard are becoming a much better option against wrestlers IMO since you can actually keep your opponent at a distance while harassing their base, and you can setup many subs just the same from the variations of open guard as you can from closed.




I don't think it's American wrestlers that have diminished the effectiveness, but rather how MMA fights are scored. You just can't win a decision on your back, regardless of the guard you choose.

And IMO, one can harass the base of someone with a closed guard.

I think one reason for the reduced effectiveness of the closed guard is the fact that there is no gi in MMA these days and the skin to skin contact with sweat just diminishes any traction.
bjj1605
8/19/10 10:42:55PM
The fact that wrestlers can stall from the guard for decisions in no way proves that the guard is any less effective. If it were unlimited rounds or no rounds like it was in the old days I'm fully confident that the jiu jitsu guys would finish the wrestlers almost every time. Wrestlers can't effectively use ground and pound against jiu jitsu fighters and they can't finish with submissions. That leaves one option. Decisions. Take away decisions (not gonna happen because of the limits of a spectator sport) then they have no road to victory.

Thats one of the reasons a lot of the gracies don't like modern MMA. Royce Gracie used to say that he'd be willing to wait hours for a submission if he needed to.

I don't expect anything to change and it doesn't make me like MMA any less. I understand that it is Sport Fighting now instead of just fighting. But I will say again, people who believe the guard is dead are delusional.

We've seen so many fights recently won by submission from the bottom (Anderson vs Chael, Werdum vs Fedor, Pettis vs Roller).

I would also argue that part of the reason for the poor statistics (aside from rounds) is that people with the attitude a lot of you have on here are making it so that guys don't believe in jiu jitsu. There are less jiu jitsu fighters in the sport. That trend is reversing now though with the new hybrid wrestler/jiu jitsu guys (ala Jake Shields).
Jackelope
8/20/10 2:00:59AM
BJJ- everything you say is basically true, but like I said before you have to give credit to the wrestlers nowadays who have cross trained in BJJ and use it to negate the effectiveness of the guard. Literally the statistics don't lie. 7 or 8 years ago there's no way in hell I would have picked a wrestler like Jon Fitch coming into the sport against a legitimate BJJ black belt. So some credit has to be given to the wrestlers who have trained in BJJ and learned to nullify its effectiveness when it comes to these fights.

I do tend to agree that decisions are part of what is wrong with the sport now, though. I am just a much bigger fan of the pride long opening rounds and judging criteria.

You can look through my post history and I bet one of the most common phrases would be

"Effort to finish"

If effort to finish was stressed more in the judging criteria then you'd see a lot less LnP decisions. Because let's face it- a close call with a triangle choke is much more dangerous to a person than is someone laying on top of them for 5 minutes. Someone could lay on you throwing weak ass light GnP for 4:30 of a 5 minute round, but if for those :30 seconds you had them almost locked up in a triangle and a couple arm bars you'd win the round.
bjj1605
8/20/10 4:05:32PM

Posted by Jackelope

BJJ- everything you say is basically true, but like I said before you have to give credit to the wrestlers nowadays who have cross trained in BJJ and use it to negate the effectiveness of the guard. Literally the statistics don't lie. 7 or 8 years ago there's no way in hell I would have picked a wrestler like Jon Fitch coming into the sport against a legitimate BJJ black belt. So some credit has to be given to the wrestlers who have trained in BJJ and learned to nullify its effectiveness when it comes to these fights.

I do tend to agree that decisions are part of what is wrong with the sport now, though. I am just a much bigger fan of the pride long opening rounds and judging criteria.

You can look through my post history and I bet one of the most common phrases would be

"Effort to finish"

If effort to finish was stressed more in the judging criteria then you'd see a lot less LnP decisions. Because let's face it- a close call with a triangle choke is much more dangerous to a person than is someone laying on top of them for 5 minutes. Someone could lay on you throwing weak ass light GnP for 4:30 of a 5 minute round, but if for those :30 seconds you had them almost locked up in a triangle and a couple arm bars you'd win the round.



That's exactly how I see it. But I don't think you really need to even change what the rules say. I don't understand how "effective grappling" means laying in guard defending submissions instead of attacking of your back and trying to finish the fight. They could clarify effective to mean closest to finishing the fight, however.

And I'm not trying to say that wrestlers deserve no credit. They are great athletes with certain very high level skills. But what they do is not winning a fight, it is effectively using the rules to gain a victory.
zephead
8/21/10 4:18:56PM

Posted by boarderxcosta

Remember what he said after Sonnen beat Marquardt, Okami and Miller ?

“I think closed guard is dead in MMA right now,” “Unless you’re Demian Maia or Shinya Aoki forget about it – you’re either getting up, or getting on top.”

Forget about pulling off submissions from your back nowadays, strong wrestlers like Chael Sonnen – they’ll just pound you out all day long,”

Well that is why jits is the best and always will be. Anderson Silva backed that up last night all the way and reminded us why he is called THE SPIDER.

It's never over.



Jits isn't the best, it's one aspect of MMA that you need.
warglory
8/21/10 6:58:32PM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Jackelope

BJJ- everything you say is basically true, but like I said before you have to give credit to the wrestlers nowadays who have cross trained in BJJ and use it to negate the effectiveness of the guard. Literally the statistics don't lie. 7 or 8 years ago there's no way in hell I would have picked a wrestler like Jon Fitch coming into the sport against a legitimate BJJ black belt. So some credit has to be given to the wrestlers who have trained in BJJ and learned to nullify its effectiveness when it comes to these fights.

I do tend to agree that decisions are part of what is wrong with the sport now, though. I am just a much bigger fan of the pride long opening rounds and judging criteria.

You can look through my post history and I bet one of the most common phrases would be

"Effort to finish"

If effort to finish was stressed more in the judging criteria then you'd see a lot less LnP decisions. Because let's face it- a close call with a triangle choke is much more dangerous to a person than is someone laying on top of them for 5 minutes. Someone could lay on you throwing weak ass light GnP for 4:30 of a 5 minute round, but if for those :30 seconds you had them almost locked up in a triangle and a couple arm bars you'd win the round.



That's exactly how I see it. But I don't think you really need to even change what the rules say. I don't understand how "effective grappling" means laying in guard defending submissions instead of attacking of your back and trying to finish the fight. They could clarify effective to mean closest to finishing the fight, however.

And I'm not trying to say that wrestlers deserve no credit. They are great athletes with certain very high level skills. But what they do is not winning a fight, it is effectively using the rules to gain a victory.



That's kind of a broad assumption about wrestlers, don't you think? We have seen some incredible wrestlers over the years. If it wasn't for wrestlers, we wouldn't have ground n pound.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/21/10 8:03:42PM

Posted by warglory

That's kind of a broad assumption about wrestlers, don't you think? We have seen some incredible wrestlers over the years. If it wasn't for wrestlers, we wouldn't have ground n pound.



Okay Madden, that's a little like saying if it wasn't for the quarterbacks we wouldn't have a passing game.
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