Jon Fitch could tie Royce Gracie’s record

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ToeZup
2/27/08 1:44:31PM
http://www.fightmatrix.com/

Originally Posted by FightMatrix.com
Should he defeat his opponent Chris Wilson in their upcoming UFC 82 bout, Jon Fitch will become only the second fighter in the UFC history to achieve eight consecutive victories in the Octagon. But not without some controversy:

Royce Gracie holds the current record for most consecutive wins in the UFC. Gracie accomplished his eight victories over the course of the first three UFC tournaments. After defeating Kimo Leopoldo in the opening round of the UFC 3 tournament, Royce was not able to continue fighting. Instead of withdrawing from the tournament between bouts, Gracie entered the Octagon to face Harold Howard in the semi-final — only to have his corner throw in the towel as soon as the bout began.

MMA pundits disagree on whether to count ”the fight that wasn’t” as a loss on Gracie’s record. Sherdog.com lists it as a loss; so does UFC.com. FCFighter.com shows this bout as a No Contest. UFC lore has it that Royce chose to enter the Octagon and throw in the towel instead of quitting between bouts so that he would receive the “show money” for the second fight. Had he skipped that fight completely, he would have extended his streak to eleven consecutive wins following his performance in the UFC 4 tournament - a record not likely to be disputed for a long time to come.

But wait, there’s more! It turns out there is another fighter who can make a claim to already have matched Royce Gracie’s record.
Rush
2/27/08 1:51:04PM
Maybe this is why the UFC keeps feeding inexperienced fighters to Jon Fitch, to pad his record.

Personally, I am getting tired of hearing about Fitch. Talk to me about him when he fights a top 5 guy.
Mhunt1140
2/27/08 3:15:49PM
I don't think that the UFC is really feeding Jon Fitch inexperienced guys at all. Yes, a few of his opponets haven't been the best quality but seriously you have got to be kidding me with the argument that the UFC is padding his record. So you are honestly saying that guys like Josh Burkman, Thiago Alves and Diego Sanchez aren't quality opponets, come on now. Lets be serious here, Thiago is on a roll and we all know the things that Diego can do. This whole padding his record allegation is ludacris. We will see soon enough if Fitch can at least tie this record.
gsquat
2/27/08 3:21:01PM

Posted by Rush

Maybe this is why the UFC keeps feeding inexperienced fighters to Jon Fitch, to pad his record.

Personally, I am getting tired of hearing about Fitch. Talk to me about him when he fights a top 5 guy.



I think he is a top 5 guy. During his streak, like the previous poster said, he has beaten high quality opponents. He's huge for his division and poses a threat to Royce's record and the rest of the WW division... even GSP.
jiujitsufreak74
2/27/08 3:22:30PM
Marcus Davis is getting there too...don't sleep on him either

but anyway, i agree with Rush about the padded records. i would much rather Fitch have 3 or 4 wins against top quality opponents then 8 or 9 against nobody's. and same goes for Marcus. i am not going to pretend that Marcus has fought better fighters then Fitch has because honestly he hasn't. but now after his match with Swick hopefully it will open him to better opponents so that more people can recognize his talents. Fitch's upcoming fight is a joke tbh. how does someone come off of beating Diego Sanchez to fight some no name. this is a mistake and he should really be fighting a top 5 but unfortunately thanks to Joe Silva's brilliant match making there aren't any top 5 WW that are ready to fight him at this time. i hope that he gets tested again because i would respect him more if his record was 3-2 against the top 5 then if it is 14-0 against all people out of the top 20 (not that that is the case...just using a hyperbole here).
Rush
2/27/08 3:23:22PM
None of those names you mentioned are top 5 guys. Some are decent fighters, but I don't care how many guys you beat, you shouldn't get a title shot if you haven't faced any of the top 5 in the division.

The record in question is just silly. To even compare the two fighters' accomplishments is like comparing apples and oranges. Their opponents' skill levels were different as were the fight circumstances.

If you don't think that the UFC is padding Fitch's record, then tell me why he is fighting a guy (at this point in his career) that is 13-3 and has never fought in the UFC ? Seems like a step down from Diego to me and I don't even hold Diego to as high a standard as most do right now.


JJfreak beat me on this post.
CactusBob
2/27/08 3:46:07PM
I have to agree with Rush, who cares if Fitch ties or beats Gracie's record. Royce will be in the hall of fame, can't say the same for Fitch.
gsquat
2/27/08 3:51:28PM
Don't get me wrong, Fitch's upcoming fight is a joke. Put he's still proven. I have faith that he'll get a title shot, and might win it too. I don't think he's better than GSP, Hughes, or Serra... but he'd give'em a run for their money and is very capable of winning against them.
mrkennedy
2/27/08 5:22:44PM

Posted by Rush

Maybe this is why the UFC keeps feeding inexperienced fighters to Jon Fitch, to pad his record.

Personally, I am getting tired of hearing about Fitch. Talk to me about him when he fights a top 5 guy.




what was diego sanchez and that the ufc give him that type of oppenent in interview he said himself want top 5
DoTheMMAth
2/27/08 6:15:14PM
He's taken down some quality fighters for sure, but I really want to see how he would hang against Hughes, GSP, Karo, or BJ (if/when he moves up). I can't really say one way or another if he is top-5 material until then. Either way, he's a large guy at welterweight and just one big win away from a title shot IMO. Just seems like such a complete waste of everyone's time to put him in against someone making their UFC debut. I'm happy that news came out about Karo talking some smack regarding Fitch. As long as Jon doesn't get Houston Alexander'd on Saturday perhaps we can hope for a Fitch/Karo #1 contendership bout??
Rush
2/27/08 7:44:47PM

Posted by mrkennedy

what was diego sanchez and that the ufc give him that type of oppenent in interview he said himself want top 5



I'm not sure what you are asking due to lack of punctuation, but an answer to the part about Diego....

I''ve never considered Diego top 5.



Something else I want to add about Fitch. IMO, he is currently the most unknown, winningest fighter in the UFC today.
mrkennedy
2/27/08 9:03:23PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by mrkennedy

what was diego sanchez and that the ufc give him that type of oppenent in interview he said himself want top 5



I'm not sure what you are asking due to lack of punctuation, but an answer to the part about Diego....

I''ve never considered Diego top 5.



Something else I want to add about Fitch. IMO, he is currently the most unknown, winningest fighter in the UFC today.



my ponctuation is bad because im french canadian

wait a minute you said he was not in top 5, he beat parisyan who i think was in top5 just after that he ko riggs at that moment he was top 5 IMO.
bls1919
2/27/08 9:14:22PM
Fitch is the real deal. As to him tying a record, thats not whats important.especially to him. He needs to concentrate on his next fight, and to win that fight.
Rush
2/27/08 11:39:45PM

Posted by mrkennedy

wait a minute you said he was not in top 5, he beat parisyan who i think was in top5 just after that he ko riggs at that moment he was top 5 IMO.



Sure he beat Karo. I don't consider Karo top 5 either.

I would have put Diego close to top 5 (maybe 6) at the time he beat Karo, but now, how can you you be top 5 when you've lost two in a row and you didn't start in the top 5 to begin?

I don't think I ever put Riggs in my top 10. He has basically alternated wins and losses in the UFC.
prozacnation1978
2/27/08 11:59:43PM
remember that karo backed down would not take the fight and gono got hurt, that is why they got wilson, should be a great fight
TimW001
2/28/08 12:02:57AM

Posted by Rush


Posted by mrkennedy

wait a minute you said he was not in top 5, he beat parisyan who i think was in top5 just after that he ko riggs at that moment he was top 5 IMO.



Sure he beat Karo. I don't consider Karo top 5 either.

I would have put Diego close to top 5 (maybe 6) at the time he beat Karo, but now, how can you you be top 5 when you've lost two in a row and you didn't start in the top 5 to begin?

I don't think I ever put Riggs in my top 10. He has basically alternated wins and losses in the UFC.



What about Nick Diaz?
gartface
2/28/08 12:02:59AM

Posted by prozacnation1978

remember that karo backed down would not take the fight and gono got hurt, that is why they got wilson, should be a great fight



Karo backed down? Are you kidding me? Just because Jon Fitch's camp is talking shit because they want Karo to fight Jon Fitch, doesn't mean Joe Silva-matchmaker-offered the fight to either. Get your shit straight.
telnights
2/28/08 1:08:22AM
I think Jon Fitch has fought some lower tier fights but he has also fought some tough guys as well.
Diego Sanchez (Spilt D)
Thiago Alves
Josh Burkman
Jeff Joslin (Spilt D and lot of people me included feel Joslin was robbed.)
Shonie Carter

So I wouldn't say he has been padding his record but same time I do think he needs to fight a top 5 before we start talking about records. The person that truly holds best win streak out side the UFC is Fedor hands down. But thats only from 2001 to early 2005 since then he has fought nothing but cans. (I dont think I need to explain this). The best in the UFC is Chuck. Chuck had 7 wins in a row and did this twice with wins over the likes of

Randy Couture X2 (current HW champ)
Tito Ortiz X2 (was and if he wins his next fight will be again a top 5-10 LHW)
Renato Sobral X2 (has been a top 10 LHW as long as I can think back)
Jeremy Horn
Vitor Belfort
Murilo Bustamante
Kevin Randleman
Jeff Monson

Now thats 2 great win streaks by the same guy. Not to take anything away from Royce but the guys he fought were not true MMA fighters. But neither was Royce at the time. The only notable win Royce had was over Ken Shamrock. BJJ was unheard of and no one really knew any submissions (well they didn't invite any that did other than Ken) or how to defend them. So it was more or less a bunch of guys that had no real submission defense and they had them fight a guy that is a submission specialist. (Thats sounds a lot like the past few fights Fedor has had.) UFC was made to show off Gracie’s JJ and it did just that. We have to thank the Gracie’s for bringing MMA to the US. But in the end Royce's win record was very much padded and its understandable why but that doesn't make it truly any kind of record if you ask me.
Rush
2/28/08 8:34:15AM

Posted by TimW001

What about Nick Diaz?



Karo fought Diaz when it was Diaz's third fight in the UFC. I don't know if he would have necessarily been on many people's radar at that time, let alone top 5. Add that up with three losses in a row and I don't know how Nick would have been top 5 (at one point barely top 10) in anyone's list. I think he gets too much credit for the Gomi win (which was awesome) with respect to rankings.
mrliquid
2/28/08 9:51:11AM
I rate Fitch near top 5 based on his performance in the octagon against maybe not top 5 guys but very creditable fighters who have always been near top 5 contention he has beaten tough wrestlers like Burkman and Larson he has beaten strikers and guys who are good at BJJ, its not like they are tossing him guys with no skill and bad records. Gracie is great at what he does but one of the reasons he had such a big win streak is because he fought 3 or 4 guys a night and alot of times they were guys with very little skill with styles that in no way could have countered his BJJ back then.
CornishMMA
2/28/08 10:17:21AM
Rush - why dont you enlighten us to who you class as top 5 as your argument makes no sense as it is

Fitch has beat Diego who beat Karo, most people classed those guys as top 5

Most rankings ive seen are like this -

1. GSP
2. Serra
3. Hughes
4. Koscheck
5. Fitch / Karo
Rush
2/28/08 10:54:46AM

Posted by CornishMMA

Rush - why dont you enlighten us to who you class as top 5 as your argument makes no sense as it is

Fitch has beat Diego who beat Karo, most people classed those guys as top 5

Most rankings ive seen are like this -

1. GSP
2. Serra
3. Hughes
4. Koscheck
5. Fitch / Karo




Yeah, most rankings, but if you read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I say that I do not rank Fitch in my top 5 as well as other fighters. I don't care what other people on this site think the rankings are. I have my way of ranking guys and how I class guys. If if we use the rankings you just posted, whom on that list has Fitch fought? What other fighters in the top ten other than Diego has Fitch fought?

Putting Fitch ahead of Karo because he beat Diego and Diego beat Karo is very simple minded IMO. If you go by that analogy, then why don't you complain (or say it doesn't make sense) that GSP is ahead of Serra? Why is Hughes still ranked high even though he has lost two of his last 3 fights? Because there are other factors involved regarding rankings (at least in my book). I look at their "big league" career as a whole, how they win fights and how they lose fights. Using MMMath with two degrees of separation is a pretty weak way to base rankings IMO.

Sorry for all the Serra lovers out there, but I don't consider Serra's win over GSP any indication that he is a supreme fighter. As I have stated before, Serra has had more difficulty with most of his UFC fights than GSP (by far). When I had Diego ahead of Koshcheck and Diego lost to Koshcheck, I switched their spots, but I never considered it a significant win for Josh, given the circumstances of the win.

Fitch, IMO, really hasn't been tested except for Diego and I've never really considered Diego top 5. He came close in my rankings, but then he lost two in a row to guys that I considered a lower rank.

If you want to see my top you are welcome to look at my rankings. Personally, I think the WW division is so screwed up right now because of Serra's injury and all, so guys that are close to title fights are not fight whom they should be fighting. Maybe that is one reason Fitch is still fighting inexperienced fighters, I don't know. Which is why I decided to leave spots 4 and 5 vacant for now.

I can tell you that they will be shuffled around a bit after the next few events. If Alves wins, Karo will go down and Alves might make an appearance. If Serra loses, he will be off my list. If Fitch wins, I don't think he'll go up, same with Diego. If Koshcheck wins, he might move up, but I am not sure.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you all.
gartface
2/28/08 12:32:42PM

Posted by CornishMMA

Rush - why dont you enlighten us to who you class as top 5 as your argument makes no sense as it is

Fitch has beat Diego who beat Karo, most people classed those guys as top 5

Most rankings ive seen are like this -

1. GSP
2. Serra
3. Hughes
4. Koscheck
5. Fitch / Karo



Yeah it doesn't make sense to me why Koscheck is ahead of Karo or Fitch, not to mention B.J. Penn, though he hasn't fought in WW in a while.
Kos has fought 1 great opponent(GSP), and 1 quality opponent (Diego). He looked extremely lackluster in both...the guy shouldn't be near the top 5.
CornishMMA
2/28/08 2:10:12PM

Posted by Rush

If you want to see my top you are welcome to look at my rankings. Personally, I think the WW division is so screwed up right now because of Serra's injury and all, so guys that are close to title fights are not fight whom they should be fighting. Maybe that is one reason Fitch is still fighting inexperienced fighters, I don't know. Which is why I decided to leave spots 4 and 5 vacant for now.

I can tell you that they will be shuffled around a bit after the next few events. If Alves wins, Karo will go down and Alves might make an appearance. If Serra loses, he will be off my list. If Fitch wins, I don't think he'll go up, same with Diego. If Koshcheck wins, he might move up, but I am not sure.

#1 Georges "Rush " St. Pierre
#2 BJ "The Prodigy" Penn
#3 Matt Hughes
#4
#5
#6 Karo "The Heat" Parisyan
#7 Jon Fitch
#8 Josh "Kos" Koscheck
#9 Matt "The Terror" Serra
#10 Diego "Nightmare" Sanchez

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you all.


Mate i cant believe you have said all that when actually you do really rank Fitch there, you have to put all places in rankings otherwise it doesnt work, so unless you can tell me 5 fighters that deserve to be ranked above Fitch then what you said doesnt make much sense

These arent the best rankings ive seen tho, BJ shouldnt be there so i actually see Karo as #3 and Fitch as #4
And how can you not rank Serra at #9? Im a GSP fan but he beat him fairly squarely and has to take his spot (tho after inactivity and hughes win they have swapped)

I rank him at #3 based on the fact i think he would beat Koscheck or Karo or Hughes etc. And he has beaten so many top 15 or top 20 guys like Shonie/Joslin/Larson/Carneiro/Hironaka, a few top 10 guys at the time like Burkman and Alves and of course Diego.

AND he is on 14 fight winning streak, that should count for alot in this game, his last loss was too none other than Wilson Gouveia - a guy now fighting 35lbs heavier. I wish he was fighting Koscheck at this event so he could solidify that Top 5 place but Wilson is very tough as well
Rush
2/28/08 5:19:49PM

Posted by CornishMMA
Mate i cant believe you have said all that when actually you do really rank Fitch there, you have to put all places in rankings otherwise it doesnt work, so unless you can tell me 5 fighters that deserve to be ranked above Fitch then what you said doesnt make much sense

These arent the best rankings ive seen tho, BJ shouldnt be there so i actually see Karo as #3 and Fitch as #4
And how can you not rank Serra at #9? Im a GSP fan but he beat him fairly squarely and has to take his spot (tho after inactivity and hughes win they have swapped)

I rank him at #3 based on the fact i think he would beat Koscheck or Karo or Hughes etc. And he has beaten so many top 15 or top 20 guys like Shonie/Joslin/Larson/Carneiro/Hironaka, a few top 10 guys at the time like Burkman and Alves and of course Diego.

AND he is on 14 fight winning streak, that should count for alot in this game, his last loss was too none other than Wilson Gouveia - a guy now fighting 35lbs heavier. I wish he was fighting Koscheck at this event so he could solidify that Top 5 place but Wilson is very tough as well



Paragraph 1) - That is your interpretation of rankings. This is mine. I used to have him and Karo higher, but I thought, what am I doing? I don't think either of them are top 5 fighters based on the people the fought and their performances. And also as my contribution to the site rankings I don't want them contributing to them being ranked higher than I think they should be.

Paragraph 2) - I don't care if they are not the best rankings (IN YOUR OPINION) These are my rankings. I still think BJ could come up and take out everyone on the board except GSP. If you don't like him being up there, then complain to the site admins to take him off the list of WW fighters.

Serra - Despite him beating GSP, my rankings are not all about who beat whom. They are about who I think are the best fighters. I don't think Serra is a top 5 fighter in the WW division. I am happy to move him up if he actually fights the other guys in the top 10 and wins. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that, but that's the way I do it. As I said before. If Serra beating GSP automatically puts him up there, then why isn't he higher than GSP? The same situation was with Gabriel Gonzaga after beating Cro Cop. So what? I think I barely squeezed him into my rankings when everyone else was ranking him 4th or 5th or higher. Look at where he is now. He has two losses and people have realized that and he has moved down a few notches (he should be moved down more IMO). I took him off my rankings because I don't think he should be there right now.

Winning streaks mean nothing to my rankings unless they are to guys that are top fighters. I am not going to re-type what I have already written about that.
Pookie
2/28/08 5:36:17PM

Posted by Rush


Serra - Despite him beating GSP, my rankings are not all about who beat whom. They are about who I think are the best fighters. I don't think Serra is a top 5 fighter in the WW division. I am happy to move him up if he actually fights the other guys in the top 10 and wins. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that, but that's the way I do it. As I said before. If Serra beating GSP automatically puts him up there, then why isn't he higher than GSP? The same situation was with Gabriel Gonzaga after beating Cro Cop. So what? I think I barely squeezed him into my rankings when everyone else was ranking him 4th or 5th or higher. Look at where he is now. He has two losses and people have realized that and he has moved down a few notches (he should be moved down more IMO). I took him off my rankings because I don't think he should be there right now.




I agree with this logic, when i do my rankings i like to look at the division as a whole. How would a certain fighter(serra for instance) do against the rest of the top ten.
jocksmall
2/28/08 7:00:42PM
i like fitch he is a talent and real close to top 5 if not top 5. i have seen chris wilson fight in the ifl many times and he is exciting. he has very good stand up. i guess we will see how the talent level translates to the ufc. as far as the question about the record that royce holds this isnt the same thing to me and royces accomplishment shouldnt be compared to fitch. he gets the loss to harold howard but we all know he didnt really lose so in my mind his streak is 11. i also agree with earlier posts that fitch has had an easier path than most. its pretty hard to fight easier opponents than he has in the ufc . most guys get really tough competition after their 2nd or 3rd fight.
rush rankings are funny: you leave two spots vacant and put fitch 6th then say hes not top 5. they are your ranking your intitled to your opinion but leaving two slots blank tells me you cant think of names to put ahead of the guy but you just dont want him up there.
Pitbull09
2/28/08 11:44:05PM
Im kinda upset they gave him this guy after a fight with Diego. Fitch should be fighting Kos, Karo, or Alves if he is getting a title shot next. Personally, I think he earned this, his record got padded alittle but he took higher competition well also so you cant complain. Huerta had 3-4 no bodies before they gave him Guida and he looked in trouble for a long tiem in that fight.
Pitbull09
2/28/08 11:51:19PM

Posted by CornishMMA


Posted by Rush

If you want to see my top you are welcome to look at my rankings. Personally, I think the WW division is so screwed up right now because of Serra's injury and all, so guys that are close to title fights are not fight whom they should be fighting. Maybe that is one reason Fitch is still fighting inexperienced fighters, I don't know. Which is why I decided to leave spots 4 and 5 vacant for now.

I can tell you that they will be shuffled around a bit after the next few events. If Alves wins, Karo will go down and Alves might make an appearance. If Serra loses, he will be off my list. If Fitch wins, I don't think he'll go up, same with Diego. If Koshcheck wins, he might move up, but I am not sure.

#1 Georges "Rush " St. Pierre
#2 BJ "The Prodigy" Penn
#3 Matt Hughes
#4
#5
#6 Karo "The Heat" Parisyan
#7 Jon Fitch
#8 Josh "Kos" Koscheck
#9 Matt "The Terror" Serra
#10 Diego "Nightmare" Sanchez

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you all.


Mate i cant believe you have said all that when actually you do really rank Fitch there, you have to put all places in rankings otherwise it doesnt work, so unless you can tell me 5 fighters that deserve to be ranked above Fitch then what you said doesnt make much sense

These arent the best rankings ive seen tho, BJ shouldnt be there so i actually see Karo as #3 and Fitch as #4
And how can you not rank Serra at #9? Im a GSP fan but he beat him fairly squarely and has to take his spot (tho after inactivity and hughes win they have swapped)

I rank him at #3 based on the fact i think he would beat Koscheck or Karo or Hughes etc. And he has beaten so many top 15 or top 20 guys like Shonie/Joslin/Larson/Carneiro/Hironaka, a few top 10 guys at the time like Burkman and Alves and of course Diego.

AND he is on 14 fight winning streak, that should count for alot in this game, his last loss was too none other than Wilson Gouveia - a guy now fighting 35lbs heavier. I wish he was fighting Koscheck at this event so he could solidify that Top 5 place but Wilson is very tough as well



The only prob I have with this list is Thiago Alves not being on it. I even have Serra as #10 and I dont see how people can wonder why. Look at the guys record, the victories and the loses. Altogether, all the hype around him is from a title fight he didnt deserve. Maybe I wouldnt be so harsh if he had a title defense by now but its almost been a year now.

You cant argue though when your injured, I'm just saying people shouldnt judge a guy who won a tornament of hasbeens and got a 1st round ko in a title fight that everyone said he would only have a punchers chance. The truth is he did only have a punchers chance and nows its over with for the rematch.
gartface
2/29/08 12:35:06AM
The only prob I have with this list is Thiago Alves not being on it. I even have Serra as #10 and I dont see how people can wonder why. Look at the guys record, the victories and the loses. Altogether, all the hype around him is from a title fight he didnt deserve. Maybe I wouldnt be so harsh if he had a title defense by now but its almost been a year now.

You cant argue though when your injured, I'm just saying people shouldnt judge a guy who won a tornament of hasbeens and got a 1st round ko in a title fight that everyone said he would only have a punchers chance. The truth is he did only have a punchers chance and nows its over with for the rematch.


The title shot might not have been deserved, but if I'm not mistaken he KTFO of GSP! Give the guy a damn break.
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