Please give James Irvin and Justin Levens a break...

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » General MMA Talk » Please give James Irvin and Justin Levens a break...
xposipx
7/30/08 12:40:45AM
There's so much hate spreading around about Irvin and to a lesser extent Levens. I understand how these drugs are "performance enhancing", but you have to realize that they have to be able to train to have a chance to win. A person can't train effectively when they are in horrible pain all of the time. This is their job and how they earn money - not just a hobby they do to entertain us. Irvin has had a long history with horribly painful injuries and I'm sure that had a lot to do with this. He took this fight after many others turned it down and probably trained his ass off for a fight he knew he was going to lose. During that training he could have re-aggrivated nagging injuries and took pain meds so he didn't have to drop out of a fight that was important to the UFC and to some of the fans. All of the negative talk is ridiculous and obviously not well thought out. Try using some empathy PLEASE and put yourself in their shoes. These are athletes dealing with injuries normal guys like me will never feel, but at least realize what he tested positive for is not necessarily such an awful thing for him to have done. Thank you if you made it this far.

That being said, I personally don't like Irvin, but I do empathize with his situation. It's pretty similar to what Joe Riggs is/has going/gone through.
Mayhem13
7/30/08 12:50:31AM
true, but they know that the substances are bannes....or should

plus Levens was was over 10 times the limit!!!!!
xposipx
7/30/08 1:06:58AM

Posted by Mayhem13

true, but they know that the substances are bannes....or should

plus Levens was was over 10 times the limit!!!!!



Do you really think being 10 times over the limit of pain killers would have helped his performance? Of course they know they're banned, but I genuinely think Irvin was doing it for the good of the UFC/sport. Do you not think it's a weird coincidence that a scheduled bout actually did not take place? When does this EVER happen? Affliction was most likely aware of some kind of situation with the Levens bout.
soundboy1
7/30/08 2:10:01AM
Besides in helping train I don't see how painkillers cna help you fight. have you ever taken a Vicodin? Not exactly tough guy meds.
Jackelope
7/30/08 3:40:52AM
Good message. I'm all for hanging roid users out by their neck, but this is a different story. Fighters shouldn't be hopped up on pain meds necessarily, but I know a hundred guys that load up on ibuprofen and analgesic creams before and after fights. Granted they're not as potent as some of the drugs being tested positive for, but they basically have the same effect.

In the case of being 10x over the limit it's not as bad as it sounds. Most meds will put a person's levels at 10x or even 50x their normal levels.

Another thing to consider is that the fighters may not realize they're breaking rules by taking these meds. In many cases they have doctor's prescriptions so why would they assume it's illegal?

Main point is- these are not performance enhancing drugs. These are pain mitigators, probably prescribed, and I'd be willing to extend some good faith to the fighters in these instances.
DCRage
7/30/08 6:51:04AM

Posted by Mayhem13

true, but they know that the substances are bannes....or should

plus Levens was was over 10 times the limit!!!!!


Actually, closer to 100x. The limit's 120 ng/mL. He tested at 10,141. That's over 84x over the limit.
emfleek
7/30/08 9:26:23AM
I honestly have no remorse for these guys. I think it's pretty much a slap in the face to those guys who DIDN'T try to mask the pain and fought their fights. No fighter is ever 100% going into a fight. If you're too hurt to fight, don't f'ing fight. You're jeopardizing your whole career by doing crap like this.
wolfman
7/30/08 10:11:42AM

Posted by emfleek

I honestly have no remorse for these guys. I think it's pretty much a slap in the face to those guys who DIDN'T try to mask the pain and fought their fights. No fighter is ever 100% going into a fight. If you're too hurt to fight, don't f'ing fight. You're jeopardizing your whole career by doing crap like this.



I understand what you're trying to say, but Irvin has had A LOT of injuries in his career and was just coming off a broken foot injury. To add to that he had only 5 weeks to prepare for the BIGGEST fight of his career(Ton of pressure on his shoulders, etc..). Put yourself in his shoes and think about the WHOLE situation he was faced with. I honestly can't condone him for this, but I also don't think it is necessary to lash out at him and debase him as a fighter(not directed at you, only to those who have on this site). Just my two cents.
Kracker_Jap
7/30/08 10:25:15AM
I do not have a bleeding heart.....

and understand that these are grown men and that they make their own decisions....

I do not feel the same type of anger towards some one who fails their roid test as I do some one who fails for pain meds or weed...

There is clearly a difference in my opinion (not up for debate)

But doing what these guys did was dishonest and still wrong....

My example it doesn't matter if you did'nt cheat on your girl because if you lied about going out to the Party/Bar.... All she care about is that you Lied

So when people make bad decisions like this it doesn't really matter what their excuses are what matters is that they broke the rules and got caught

They may not loose their jobs but it will take a win back their fans
wolfman
7/30/08 11:14:45AM

Posted by Kracker_Jap

I do not have a bleeding heart.....

and understand that these are grown men and that they make their own decisions....

I do not feel the same type of anger towards some one who fails their roid test as I do some one who fails for pain meds or weed...

There is clearly a difference in my opinion (not up for debate)

But doing what these guys did was dishonest and still wrong....

My example it doesn't matter if you did'nt cheat on your girl because if you lied about going out to the Party/Bar.... All she care about is that you Lied

So when people make bad decisions like this it doesn't really matter what their excuses are what matters is that they broke the rules and got caught

They may not loose their jobs but it will take a win back their fans



Yeah, testing positive for steriods is MUCH worse than being positive for pain meds...
FrankTheTank1181
7/30/08 6:30:43PM
They shouldn't be gettin' killed as bad as they are. However, they deserve a little, cause they should know what they can and cannot take under the rules.
jimmypockets
7/30/08 6:53:01PM
I can't figure out why these people are defending Irvin and Levens. True they may have been injured and that is why they took the meds but they still took them. It was the easy way out to a payday for these guys. To say that vicodin or pain killers do not enhance your performance is ridiculous. These meds are given to mask PAIN. Pain is what you receive from someone like Anderson Silva and to try and mask it for any reason is cheating. Sorry.......but it is. I mean if I weigh 150 lbs. and sign to fight at 235 and use steroids to get to that weight you would say I was a cheater. To me it is a similar situation. Yes they needed the meds to deal with the pain but they knew with this sport comes pain and if they can't handle the day in/day out pain then maybe they need to take up golf or tennis.
Jackelope
7/30/08 9:23:42PM

Posted by jimmypockets

I can't figure out why these people are defending Irvin and Levens. True they may have been injured and that is why they took the meds but they still took them. It was the easy way out to a payday for these guys. To say that vicodin or pain killers do not enhance your performance is ridiculous. These meds are given to mask PAIN. Pain is what you receive from someone like Anderson Silva and to try and mask it for any reason is cheating. Sorry.......but it is. I mean if I weigh 150 lbs. and sign to fight at 235 and use steroids to get to that weight you would say I was a cheater. To me it is a similar situation. Yes they needed the meds to deal with the pain but they knew with this sport comes pain and if they can't handle the day in/day out pain then maybe they need to take up golf or tennis.



No amount of pain killers will improve your KO reaction and no amount of pain killers will stop your limbs from snapping in a submission. 90% of fighters are on pain killers in one form or another when they walk into the cage. The ones who are on the prescription pain killers are actually at a bigger disadvantage because they sacrifice clarity of mind and balance for greater pain tolerance.
xposipx
7/30/08 10:32:25PM
Plus, saying "everyone else fights injured" is becoming a big cliche. Look at the injuries he has dealt with in comparison to others and you will see....there is no comparison.
Taylor8766
7/31/08 12:36:05AM
i could see pain killers being banned, but what gets me is pot it should not be banned, it does absolutely nothing to enhance ur performance
Kracker_Jap
7/31/08 1:51:46AM

Posted by Taylor8766

i could see pain killers being banned, but what gets me is pot it should not be banned, it does absolutely nothing to enhance ur performance



I disagree....

This statement basically says i either smoke pot or have smoked it and am in denial about the negative effects of pot
murphy_16
7/31/08 2:27:27AM
its wat you get for doing this stuff he shouldnt of done it
jiujitsufreak74
7/31/08 2:31:20AM
well, first and foremost, pot should be banned because it is illegal. also, pot does give you some sort of an advantage the same way pain killers do. look at Nick Diaz and Gomi. there is no way a broken orbital bone would have no effect on a person, yet with Diaz there was none. Bob Sapp cried when CC broke his orbital bone, so to say pot has no affect or enhancement on a fighter is a ridiculous statement.
Svartorm
7/31/08 3:13:18AM
A few things:

1. If you watched The Smashing Machine with Mark Kerr, he says he actually took pain killers to increase his pain tolerance over time. If you keep taking them, there is a residual effect to your body, like with prolonged use of any drug. I honestly think they're banned because of that, and that you can cause yourself serious harm if you're so hopped up on painkillers that you don't notice your arm just broke, or your eye socket just cracked.

2. I've broken both my legs and walked around without a cast or crutches, torn cartilage in both knees, blown out my MCL, sprained my right ankle so badly its permenantly at a 45 degree angle, and thats just my lower body injuries. I've also broken my foot when someone checked a leg kick with their knee, and it was the most painful thing I've probably ever experienced. I was actually crying and throwing up from the pain of having to walk on it before I could get to my hotel and lay down for several days. Your foot is incredibly sensitive and having a jagged bone rattling around everytime you take a step is tremendously painful. As such, I'm sure there was absolutely no way Irvin could have actually TRAINED with a broken foot unless he was on something.

3. You guys talk about someone having the option of taking a fight or not taking a fight, but this isn't always an option. The UFC is fickle at best with their talent, and for a guy like Irvin, whos usually fighting dark matches, he might not have had the option of saying no without it biting him in the ass later. He said they'd asked several MWs before asking him to fight, which means they were getting lower and lower down the totem pole, and he might have been the last guy that even had a name to use to make that event happen. Silva vs. Danny Abbadi or Silva vs. Dave Menne wasn't exactly going to bring in the big crowds, and it might have been something he couldn't refuse and still fight with the UFC.
emfleek
7/31/08 9:41:55AM

Posted by Svartorm

A few things:

1. If you watched The Smashing Machine with Mark Kerr, he says he actually took pain killers to increase his pain tolerance over time. If you keep taking them, there is a residual effect to your body, like with prolonged use of any drug. I honestly think they're banned because of that, and that you can cause yourself serious harm if you're so hopped up on painkillers that you don't notice your arm just broke, or your eye socket just cracked.

2. I've broken both my legs and walked around without a cast or crutches, torn cartilage in both knees, blown out my MCL, sprained my right ankle so badly its permenantly at a 45 degree angle, and thats just my lower body injuries. I've also broken my foot when someone checked a leg kick with their knee, and it was the most painful thing I've probably ever experienced. I was actually crying and throwing up from the pain of having to walk on it before I could get to my hotel and lay down for several days. Your foot is incredibly sensitive and having a jagged bone rattling around everytime you take a step is tremendously painful. As such, I'm sure there was absolutely no way Irvin could have actually TRAINED with a broken foot unless he was on something.

3. You guys talk about someone having the option of taking a fight or not taking a fight, but this isn't always an option. The UFC is fickle at best with their talent, and for a guy like Irvin, whos usually fighting dark matches, he might not have had the option of saying no without it biting him in the ass later. He said they'd asked several MWs before asking him to fight, which means they were getting lower and lower down the totem pole, and he might have been the last guy that even had a name to use to make that event happen. Silva vs. Danny Abbadi or Silva vs. Dave Menne wasn't exactly going to bring in the big crowds, and it might have been something he couldn't refuse and still fight with the UFC.



Once again...telling it like it is. Props, man.*



* or not. I have to spread some love around.
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