Iceman vs Shogun. Does the winner deserve a title shot?

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Dastardly1
2/17/08 12:29:37AM
Should the winner of Liddell / Rua get the next title shot after Rampage vs Griffin is over? that would give Liddell 2 big wins in a row or Rua a huge comeback after his loss to Forrest.
npayant
2/17/08 12:44:04AM
What about Jardine? He beat Liddel and Griffin...

I'm not a fan of Jardine AT ALL (in fact I personally wouldn't like to see him fight for the title)...but he DID beat both of these guys...

Then again he lost to H. Alexander... ???


IDK...who else is there that has beat TOP competition?
bullettdodger
2/17/08 12:46:26AM

Posted by Dastardly1

Should the winner of Liddell / Rua get the next title shot after Rampage vs Griffin is over? that would give Liddell 2 big wins in a row or Rua a huge comeback after his loss to Forrest.



Hmm I think the winner of Lidell v Rua should have to fight Machida, then the winner of that should get the title shot.
npayant
2/17/08 12:48:04AM

Posted by bullettdodger


Posted by Dastardly1

Should the winner of Liddell / Rua get the next title shot after Rampage vs Griffin is over? that would give Liddell 2 big wins in a row or Rua a huge comeback after his loss to Forrest.



Hmm I think the winner of Lidell v Rua should have to fight Machida, then the winner of that should get the title shot.



Oh yeah... Machida!! I forgot about him... My vote is Machida if he can beat any one of the top competitors in the division his next fight.
Dastardly1
2/17/08 1:02:42AM

Posted by npayant

What about Jardine? He beat Liddel and Griffin...

I'm not a fan of Jardine AT ALL (in fact I personally would like to see him fight for the title)...but he DID beat both of these guys...

Then again he lost to H. Alexander... ???


IDK...who else is there that has beat TOP competition?



I agree with you about Jardine being the other legit contender. I just think that the UFC doesn't see him as marketable as the 2 guys he beat. i dont think Dana expected him to beat the TUF champ or his poster boy Chuck.
BlazinSaddle
2/17/08 2:02:19AM
jardine needs 1 win against a top 10
chuck and shogun both need 2 wins
lyoto needs 1 win against top 10
thiago and rashad need 1-2 wins

jardine vs lyoto... for number 1 contender (since tito apparently backed out)
chuck/shogun VS thiago/rashad for number 2 contender

this makes the most sense period
cloppio
2/17/08 4:08:46AM

Posted by bullettdodger


Posted by Dastardly1

Should the winner of Liddell / Rua get the next title shot after Rampage vs Griffin is over? that would give Liddell 2 big wins in a row or Rua a huge comeback after his loss to Forrest.



Hmm I think the winner of Lidell v Rua should have to fight Machida, then the winner of that should get the title shot.



yeah that seems fair. and if tito backs out of his fight put jarden against machida. winner of that get winner of rua/liddell. then a title shot? i don't know it seems like someone is gonna have to wait


MMAcca
2/17/08 5:32:33AM
Liddell - yes

Rua - no
Manfred
2/17/08 6:47:58AM
Manfred
2/17/08 6:51:09AM
Seriously though, rumor is that Tito isn't going to fight Machida now. So I say Jardine / Machida for #1 contender.

So, to the TS, no
hippysmacker
2/17/08 7:40:16AM

Posted by MMAcca

Liddell - yes

Rua - no



I would agree with this only because it would ne Chucks 2nd straight win against a top guy. I think shogun , or anyone else for that matter, should need at least 2 straight also. While I guess I'm okay with Forrest getting a shot, I wish the same rules had applied to him, as I don't consider Ramirez a top guy. Someone mentioned a scenario with Jardine/Machida & Chuck/Shogun winners meeting for the next shot. I think this is actually the fairest way, if in fact Toto does drop out, but I doubt it will happen. Still if Chuck does beat Shogun, I can see him getting the next shot. The time lines would work out( Chuck /Shogun in June) as I think the Page/Forrest fight will be in July. MAchida just had his first victory in the UFC vs a top 10 guy. I don't think a victory over Tito would propel him into a shot. A victory over Jardine, who just beat Chuck , might make more sense. My guess is if Chuck wins, and is uninjured, he's next. The winner of a possible Jardine/Machida fight would probably get the shot if Chucks hurt in victory . If Shogun wins there are way too many scenarios to go through, as we don't even know if Jardine and Machida are actually fighting yet.
MMAcca
2/17/08 9:26:03AM

Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by MMAcca

Liddell - yes

Rua - no



I would agree with this only because it would ne Chucks 2nd straight win against a top guy. I think shogun , or anyone else for that matter, should need at least 2 straight also. While I guess I'm okay with Forrest getting a shot, I wish the same rules had applied to him, as I don't consider Ramirez a top guy. Someone mentioned a scenario with Jardine/Machida & Chuck/Shogun winners meeting for the next shot. I think this is actually the fairest way, if in fact Toto does drop out, but I doubt it will happen. Still if Chuck does beat Shogun, I can see him getting the next shot. The time lines would work out( Chuck /Shogun in June) as I think the Page/Forrest fight will be in July. MAchida just had his first victory in the UFC vs a top 10 guy. I don't think a victory over Tito would propel him into a shot. A victory over Jardine, who just beat Chuck , might make more sense. My guess is if Chuck wins, and is uninjured, he's next. The winner of a possible Jardine/Machida fight would probably get the shot if Chucks hurt in victory . If Shogun wins there are way too many scenarios to go through, as we don't even know if Jardine and Machida are actually fighting yet.



Got to pretty much agree with that.

I would say Chuck is next after Forrest (if he beats Rua, which i'm not sure about)

Then Machida after Chuck (as long as Machida is still undefeated)

But if Shogun wins, then...................AAAARRGGHHHHH!!!!
whardin19
2/17/08 11:11:22AM
I would have to say no. I think Lyoto Machida should get the next title fight. But if the title fight is givin to the winner of this fight Liddell would deserve it more than Shogun. Shogun doesn't even have a win in the UFC yet how does that make him ready for a title shot. That's just crazy!
keith-hackney1
2/17/08 11:32:18AM

Posted by bullettdodger


Posted by Dastardly1

Should the winner of Liddell / Rua get the next title shot after Rampage vs Griffin is over? that would give Liddell 2 big wins in a row or Rua a huge comeback after his loss to Forrest.



Hmm I think the winner of Lidell v Rua should have to fight Machida, then the winner of that should get the title shot.



AchillesHeel
2/17/08 12:15:17PM
I'm pretty much on board with everyone else.

It might be possible for the UFC to stage a kind of unofficial 4-man tourney for the next title fight, with Liddell, Shogun, Jardine, and Machida. Shogun-Liddell is rumored for UFC 85 on June 14th, while the TUF 7 Finale is scheduled for June 21st. This means that Rampage-Griffin will probably be in July, at the earliest. The scheduling of Shogun-Liddell is probably contingent on Shogun's recovery from his injury, so moving that up to UFC 84 on May 24th might be unrealistic*. So if the winners of Shogun-Liddell and Machida-Jardine met in August or September, that could put a title fight for the winner in the New Year's weekend December show, if the champion can wait that long.





* But what a card that would be, eh? Penn-Sherk, Shogun-Liddell, Machida-Jardine, and Evans-Silva..?
Ordep
2/17/08 12:42:29PM
Shogun - No

Liddell - maybe, I'll say no because it'll be kind of unfair for Jardine since he beated what would be the las two "#1 contenders" if they give the shot to Liddell, but if they put Jardine vs. Wandy and he loses the UFC will go straight to Liddell>Silva>Jardine and forgetting UFC 76, unfair.

Machida is the closet person to be considered #1 conter, if Tito-Machida is off then go Machida-Jardine for the next title shot, all other (Liddell,Silva,Silva,Rua,Evans, etc.) to the waiting room.
tap_or_snap
2/17/08 12:55:13PM
Slot jardine in against machida,

winner of that gets winner of chuck/shogun,

winner of that gets winner of forrest/page.
AchillesHeel
2/17/08 1:05:07PM

Posted by Ordep

Machida is the closet person to be considered #1 conter, if Tito-Machida is off then go Machida-Jardine for the next title shot, all other (Liddell,Silva,Silva,Rua,Evans, etc.) to the waiting room.


See, I disagree with this altogether. Machida hasn't beaten anybody impressive.

EDIT: Actually, I guess I should say that he's had one impressive win, over Sokoudjou.

Sam Hoger and David Heath: There's really nothing to talk about here, is there? They're both cans, and Machida didn't finish either of them.

Kazuhiro Nakamura was very overrated, imho. He won Decisions over Bustamante, Randleman, Vovchanchyn and Kondo more than 2 years ago, and none of those guys was a Top 10 LHW anyway. Santos, Nakao, and Galbraith aren't even on a par with those guys. Meanwhile, Nakamura has lost to every Top 10 fighter he's ever faced.

The fight with Sokoudjou was the first time I felt that Machida might be a top contender, and it remains to be seen whether Sokoudjou's wins over Lil' Nog and Arona represented his "career year."

I would rank Machida 4th right now. A match with Tito would have been ideal, but it wouldn't have earned him a title shot ahead of the other guys, imo, especially if Jardine defeats Wandy or Liddell defeats Shogun.
RampageOwnedYou
2/17/08 1:07:00PM
If Chuck wins YES.....If Shogun wins, i'd give him one more fight before the title.
I'd even go on to say winner of this fight to go up against Lyoto......I mean he is a given in my eyes to beat Tito. So I would put the winner of this match vs Lyoto and winner of that to get Rampage, Griffin.

RampageOwnedYou
2/17/08 1:11:20PM

See, I disagree with this altogether. Machida hasn't beaten anybody impressive.


then you go on to say he is 4th in your opinion, why because you editted and said he beat Soku?? lol

What about beating Rich Franklin when he was undefeated, and actually Ko'd franklin???

He has even beat BJ penn, Sam Greco and even Michael McDonald.

Its clear you dont watch anything but UFC, or you would post that Lyoto deserves it. I suggest you go watch some of his fights, cause its clear you dont know what your talking about.
AchillesHeel
2/17/08 2:05:45PM

Posted by RampageOwnedYou

then you go on to say he is 4th in your opinion


4th in line for a title shot, yes.


Posted by RampageOwnedYou, why because you editted and said he beat Soku?? lol

Yeah, pretty much. Like I say, we might find out that Sokoudjou's 2007 was the peak of his career, but I'm not going to discount him yet. Machida decisively defeated someone who had pummeled Nogueira and Arona, which is the only thing he's done that has put him into the contention picture for me.


Posted by RampageOwnedYou

What about beating Rich Franklin when he was undefeated, and actually Ko'd franklin???


(a) That was 4 years ago. I don't have a mathematical formula or anything (although I have tried to come up with one), I tend to progressively discount fighters' past performances over time.

Anything more than about 2 years past - wins and losses alike - doesn't really count for me, when thinking about who deserves a title shot. That's the same reason that I don't think Shogun will have earned a title shot, even if he defeats Liddell. If Shogun beats Liddell and Jardine beats someone worth talking about - such as Machida or Wanderlei Silva - then Jardine clearly deserves the title shot.

(b) People were gushing about Machida before came to the UFC, myself included, because of his wins over Franklin and Penn. Franklin is a Middleweight. While he was fighting at 205 at the time, and probably could again if he wanted to, Franklin really found success when he went to 185. And of course, Penn is a Lightweight and a Welterweight. Neither guy is even a Top-15 LHW.


Posted by RampageOwnedYou

He has even beat BJ penn, Sam Greco and even Michael McDonald.


I like how you write "even Michael McDonald", as though that's Machida's most impressive feat to date.


Posted by RampageOwnedYou

Its clear you dont watch anything but UFC, or you would post that Lyoto deserves it. I suggest you go watch some of his fights, cause its clear you dont know what your talking about.


Uh-huh.
Gipper
2/17/08 2:07:34PM
YES
nick94
2/17/08 5:06:28PM
Chuck has been one of my favorite fighters for a long time. Although i believe he should be remembered as one of the greatest mma strikers of all time he recently has not been fighting like that. I say he has to absolutely demolish shogun for dana to even consider giving him a title rematch. UFC has given former champions a rematch for the title just after two consecutive wins. Hell, Dan henderson got two title shots in a row so WHO KNOWS?
NatedawgThaM
2/17/08 7:04:56PM

Posted by BlazinSaddle

jardine needs 1 win against a top 10
chuck and shogun both need 2 wins
lyoto needs 1 win against top 10
thiago and rashad need 1-2 wins

jardine vs lyoto... for number 1 contender (since tito apparently backed out)
chuck/shogun VS thiago/rashad for number 2 contender

this makes the most sense period





Chuck Liddell should not get a title shot over the person who whooped his ass period. Especially when that person also beat the person who’s getting a title shot now. Shogun needs to be Machida or Jardine after he does beat Liddell before he gets mentioned for getting a title shot unless Rampage is still champ and that launches him over everybody else for already mauling Rampage.

Machida is very overrated IMO. I mean don’t get me wrong, he has the skills to be the best fighter in the world BUT he does not have those quality wins which is why I think he’s overrated for everybody saying he deserves a title shot. He hasn’t beaten a top LHW yet and his biggest wins are against guys whose natural weights are below him. Soko was overrated, Nakamura to a certain degree. He needs to beat a top 10 before he get mentioned.

So the winner of Rashad/Thiago(Both undefeated) should fight the winner of Machida/Jardine for the next title shot. While the loser of that fight fights the winner of Liddell/Shogun because IMHO, Rashad deserves a title before Liddell or Shogun who are coming off losses besides Chuck who was coming off losses and beat somebody else who is coming off losses, and how that automatically launches him into the title picture is beyond me.

JoeySteel
2/17/08 8:24:38PM
WHAT THE HELL, Machida shouldn't even have to fight Lidell. What is Lidell doing near the top. Machida shouldn't have to fight Tito, but that is more reasonable than Lidell. What is with some of these crazy top ranking. What the heck is Louzon doing with a fight against Kenny Florian? This is crazy.

I can't wait till UFC acutally ranks the top ten.
Boo_Radley21
2/17/08 8:58:26PM
No.

Nuff Said.
iwannabesedated
2/17/08 9:56:46PM
Yeah i agree with Jardine fighting Machida and i think Whoever wins that should get the next shot at Forrest/Rampage and the winner of Chuck Shogun would be next inline.After that you got Rashad/ TSilva and if Wandy can get 2 wins he could come into the picture..so 205 is crazy now.IM not sure on how the timeline would work and the layoffs in between.But in a nutshell thats how i see it.
BlazinSaddle
2/17/08 10:11:58PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM


Posted by BlazinSaddle

jardine needs 1 win against a top 10
chuck and shogun both need 2 wins
lyoto needs 1 win against top 10
thiago and rashad need 1-2 wins

jardine vs lyoto... for number 1 contender (since tito apparently backed out)
chuck/shogun VS thiago/rashad for number 2 contender

this makes the most sense period





Chuck Liddell should not get a title shot over the person who whooped his ass period. Especially when that person also beat the person who’s getting a title shot now. Shogun needs to be Machida or Jardine after he does beat Liddell before he gets mentioned for getting a title shot unless Rampage is still champ and that launches him over everybody else for already mauling Rampage.

Machida is very overrated IMO. I mean don’t get me wrong, he has the skills to be the best fighter in the world BUT he does not have those quality wins which is why I think he’s overrated for everybody saying he deserves a title shot. He hasn’t beaten a top LHW yet and his biggest wins are against guys whose natural weights are below him. Soko was overrated, Nakamura to a certain degree. He needs to beat a top 10 before he get mentioned.

So the winner of Rashad/Thiago(Both undefeated) should fight the winner of Machida/Jardine for the next title shot. While the loser of that fight fights the winner of Liddell/Shogun because IMHO, Rashad deserves a title before Liddell or Shogun who are coming off losses besides Chuck who was coming off losses and beat somebody else who is coming off losses, and how that automatically launches him into the title picture is beyond me.




you agree but no props?
loonytnt
2/17/08 11:39:32PM
NO WAY, Chuck got beat by the dean of mean, shogun got beat by forrest, Dean of Mean beat forrest so imo Keith needs to fight rampage not forrest but that can may still happen because i dont see forrest beaten rampage

Keith vs Rampage imo
NatedawgThaM
2/18/08 12:49:55AM

Posted by BlazinSaddle


Posted by NatedawgThaM


Posted by BlazinSaddle

jardine needs 1 win against a top 10
chuck and shogun both need 2 wins
lyoto needs 1 win against top 10
thiago and rashad need 1-2 wins

jardine vs lyoto... for number 1 contender (since tito apparently backed out)
chuck/shogun VS thiago/rashad for number 2 contender

this makes the most sense period





Chuck Liddell should not get a title shot over the person who whooped his ass period. Especially when that person also beat the person who’s getting a title shot now. Shogun needs to be Machida or Jardine after he does beat Liddell before he gets mentioned for getting a title shot unless Rampage is still champ and that launches him over everybody else for already mauling Rampage.

Machida is very overrated IMO. I mean don’t get me wrong, he has the skills to be the best fighter in the world BUT he does not have those quality wins which is why I think he’s overrated for everybody saying he deserves a title shot. He hasn’t beaten a top LHW yet and his biggest wins are against guys whose natural weights are below him. Soko was overrated, Nakamura to a certain degree. He needs to beat a top 10 before he get mentioned.

So the winner of Rashad/Thiago(Both undefeated) should fight the winner of Machida/Jardine for the next title shot. While the loser of that fight fights the winner of Liddell/Shogun because IMHO, Rashad deserves a title before Liddell or Shogun who are coming off losses besides Chuck who was coming off losses and beat somebody else who is coming off losses, and how that automatically launches him into the title picture is beyond me.




you agree but no props?



I tried too but I gots 2 spread da love
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