Herb Dean

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Jackelope
1/24/08 2:42:18AM
I wouldn't normally make a post bashing a referee, but I found myself disgusted after tonight's fights.

Drew McFedries was far from out. He was covering up, yes, but in the replays I saw no clean shots landed. After Dean jumped in McFedries jumped right back up and was even laughing and shaking his head. Dean turned what could have been an unbelievable fight into a snooze fest if you ask me.

Next up you've got Crane who was obviously losing, but it was a great fight, and all of the sudden he takes a hard punch and covers his eye-- BAM! Fight stops. I dunno if any of you guys have ever been in a fight where you took one square in the eye before, but man I have and you can't help but react by covering your eye. Yeah, he rolled and gave his back, but it's my opinion that he was far from out. I think it's the majority of people's opinion.

So there you had two great fights stopped early by bad referee decisions.

I really don't know what my point was in posting this... I guess just to bitch. I don't think Herb should be canned or anything, but man I'd hate to see more of that crap. If he wasn't a repeat offendor from past events I wouldn't be saying anything, either.
telnights
1/24/08 3:29:14AM
I don't agree about the Drew McFedries fight the fetal position is not intelligibly defending your self. He knees buckled and he went down in to the fetal position which is normally a hint the fight is over. Not even going to look at your picks on this on this one.

I agree with you on the Pellegrino fight
(This is a post a made in another topic but explains its.)
I don't get Herb Dean sometimes man. Pellegrino takes a face kick that would have stopped most fights and Herb Dean does nothing. But Crane rolls to closes his eyes because he took a fist in the eye and then rolls back which is normal for a BJJ guy and the fight is stopped. I mean I know Pellegrino was doing very well and he would have got TKO in the next min or so. But thats not the point Herb "early stop" Dean needs to let the fight unfold a little more and not be so jumpy.

LayinFrame
1/24/08 4:17:18AM
herb dean is known for early stops. he doesnt want anyone getting too "hurt" hehe
mrsmiley
1/24/08 5:44:49AM
Drew Mcfedries seemed to be fine once Herb stopped the fight,but the bottom line is he wasn't defending himself.He just curled into a ball and would have gotten hurt if Dean wouldn't have stepped in.


If anything,I would be more pissed at Mcfedries for "NOT" doing anything.

As for fights gettting stopped early,it does suck.I get very aggrevated when it happens,but I also try to remember that it's better if it gets stopped too early rather than too late.I know that's not the best of answers,but that at least personaly gives me some comfort when a fight gets stopped early.
rcg916
1/24/08 6:24:09AM
Couldnt agree less... McFedries was out, and even if he came to straight away, he was still out briefly. Crane turned his back, covered up, and stopped fighting basically. Both fine stoppages.

And since Im just a fan, and not a trained professional referee, I think Ill leave those calls to the people qualified to do so.


Posted by LayinFrame

he doesnt want anyone getting too "hurt" hehe



Which, last time I checked, was the referee's number one job in there...
Naturaldisaster
1/24/08 8:29:35AM
McFedries wasn't doin anything but curlin up in a little ball while cote unloaded on him. It was a good stoppage.
and crane would have been done anyway after that shot,
Boo_Radley21
1/24/08 9:14:02AM

Posted by Naturaldisaster

McFedries wasn't doin anything but curlin up in a little ball while cote unloaded on him. It was a good stoppage.
and crane would have been done anyway after that shot,




After he curled up and Cote started punching there was no coming back for McFedries IMO. Good stoppage on that one.
gsquat
1/24/08 9:41:44AM
In this case its not about whether or not McFedries was out (because he was never unconscious or even close) or if Cote's punches were landing. If Drew wasn't intelligently defending then is done. Dean doesn't care if you're OK or not. Remaining in the fetal position taking punches isn't gonna happen for long.
As for Crane, Herb Dean saw him wince, turn over, and cower.
scoozna
1/24/08 10:25:34AM
I mostly agree with the TS. I think we all agree it ain't easy being a ref, but since he was covered up so well, he could have let it go just a bit longer to be sure Mcfedries wasn't going to get out of it.

I don't think the Crane stoppage was early though...he was getting beat up pretty bad.
MMAnomale
1/24/08 11:31:28AM
Herb Dean is a great ref. Everybody's prone to some mistakes/early stoppages. He's in the ring and he has a better view of the fighters' eyes and other body functions that they are trained to watch for in those circumstances. I agree that he should've let that fight go for a few more seconds to see if he would've recovered or not, but that's a split-second call, and isn't always easy.
If you watched Dean ref the EliteXC match, I believe it was Barone/F.Shamrock, he couldn't have stopped it in the first round, but let it go, which was the right decision. Some other refs may have stopped it. I'm not sure if it was that fight or another that I'm thinking of. If I'm wrong I'm sure I"ll be called out for it, but when I get home tonight and can find out for sure (I'll check the my recording). My point is, refs make mistakes just like some fighters do. I've seen several fights stopped too soon, but I've also seen some stopped a little late (especially W.Silva/Kondo, but that's a whole different story because it was in Japan). They can't be perfect, so I tend to cut them a little slack.
sonicsmokesweed
1/24/08 12:12:05PM

Posted by LayinFrame

herb dean is known for early stops. he doesnt want anyone getting too "hurt" hehe




lol, exactly i hope u guys dont attack me for this but i think herb dean is one of the softest referees i've seen and not only that, he's also soft spoken lol
sonicsmokesweed
1/24/08 12:19:40PM
drew mcfredries got folded up like a pizza roll plain and simple if herb didnt rescue him he would of went to sleep most definately
Kastro
1/24/08 12:38:34PM

Posted by Jackelope

I wouldn't normally make a post bashing a referee, but I found myself disgusted after tonight's fights.

Drew McFedries was far from out. He was covering up, yes, but in the replays I saw no clean shots landed. After Dean jumped in McFedries jumped right back up and was even laughing and shaking his head. Dean turned what could have been an unbelievable fight into a snooze fest if you ask me.

Next up you've got Crane who was obviously losing, but it was a great fight, and all of the sudden he takes a hard punch and covers his eye-- BAM! Fight stops. I dunno if any of you guys have ever been in a fight where you took one square in the eye before, but man I have and you can't help but react by covering your eye. Yeah, he rolled and gave his back, but it's my opinion that he was far from out. I think it's the majority of people's opinion.

So there you had two great fights stopped early by bad referee decisions.

I really don't know what my point was in posting this... I guess just to bitch. I don't think Herb should be canned or anything, but man I'd hate to see more of that crap. If he wasn't a repeat offendor from past events I wouldn't be saying anything, either.



Wow...

I strongly disagree with you... Drew got nailed with at least 3 good shots before he went down, he curls up into a ball and just turtles while Cote is trying to hammer him with shots - if Herb Dean let it continue what would have happened? Cote would have found a way to sneak those shots through and pound him to a pulp, the fight was over man...

As for Crane, he was taking a beating, he takes a hard shot right in the eyeball, he actually turns away from his opponent and holds his head as if he's sustained a huge injury - Herb Dean stops the fight... nothing wrong with that.

The event wasn't that exciting, but its not Herb Dean's fault just because he stopped those two fights - the fighters left him no choice, I like Herb Dean he is one of my favorite refs.
loonytnt
1/24/08 2:08:40PM
if herb didnt stop the fight cote would still be hitting drew as we type, herb did a good job on that fight. now for the other fight... i still think he did the right thing, now he closed his eye and rolled over, yeah , but imo thats not why it was stoped he was gettin killed in that fight and that last hit would have been 1 of many


herb dean did good imo
sillysnail
1/24/08 3:36:31PM
i thought they were both good calls. the second a fighter shows even the slightest hint that he does not want to continue, as did both guys, the fight needs to stop. his first reaction was to grab his eye and give up his back instead of going straight to a defensive position...the fight was over.
NatedawgThaM
1/24/08 3:52:03PM

Posted by rcg916

Couldnt agree less... McFedries was out, and even if he came to straight away, he was still out briefly. Crane turned his back, covered up, and stopped fighting basically. Both fine stoppages.

And since Im just a fan, and not a trained professional referee, I think Ill leave those calls to the people qualified to do so.


Posted by LayinFrame

he doesnt want anyone getting too "hurt" hehe



Which, last time I checked, was the referee's number one job in there...



AGREE 100%!!!

Crane got hit, covered hi eyes and turned onto his stomach and took unanswered shot. COME ON, even Big John could ave stopped that.

The Drew stoppage was good too. Drew took a clean shot but didn't go down, he fell down at his own will. Even though he covered up, he wasn't doing anything to stop Cote from hitting him. He just sat there and didn't move. BOTH JUSTIFIED!!!
postman
1/24/08 3:52:13PM
All the shots Drew was taking were on the forearms. I have no problem with a fight being stoped cause a guy is blocking shots with only his hands but drew was covering well and should have been givin more time to get out. Crane I thought it was quick but he would have ate another shot and been out. So I was ok with that.
CactusBob
1/24/08 4:42:21PM
I think this is a case of premature stoppages, but only by seconds. McFedries would have eaten bombs while trying to stand, and would have probably been put away. While Crane, it could be argued, had some fight left in him, I am convinced Pellegrino would have pounced and ended that bout within a few seconds. Overall a good card, but not one to get excited about.
Violence108
1/24/08 4:59:52PM
i think that both of the fights were good stoppages
Crane took a hard punch and turns away and covers is face, he was all really losing and if the EVEN if the ref let it go on Kurt would have pounded him out, Herb was just protect Crane for my punches
Drew got caught with a big right hook and the a left and went down and Cote jumped now him and was hitting him with some punches and Herb stepped in , Drew was up agasint the fance and in the fetal postion.
thats what i think
Herb Dean called the Tim S. and Frank M. fight back UFC 48 and he stopped the fight when he saw tims arm bark, every one was booing and Joe Rogan even said "i dont know why he stopped the fight" but the end Tims arm was broke and they it was a good stoppage
Herb Dean good ref
DJDark41
1/24/08 5:46:15PM

Posted by Jackelope

I wouldn't normally make a post bashing a referee, but I found myself disgusted after tonight's fights.

Drew McFedries was far from out. He was covering up, yes, but in the replays I saw no clean shots landed. After Dean jumped in McFedries jumped right back up and was even laughing and shaking his head. Dean turned what could have been an unbelievable fight into a snooze fest if you ask me.

Next up you've got Crane who was obviously losing, but it was a great fight, and all of the sudden he takes a hard punch and covers his eye-- BAM! Fight stops. I dunno if any of you guys have ever been in a fight where you took one square in the eye before, but man I have and you can't help but react by covering your eye. Yeah, he rolled and gave his back, but it's my opinion that he was far from out. I think it's the majority of people's opinion.

So there you had two great fights stopped early by bad referee decisions.

I really don't know what my point was in posting this... I guess just to bitch. I don't think Herb should be canned or anything, but man I'd hate to see more of that crap. If he wasn't a repeat offendor from past events I wouldn't be saying anything, either.





I dunno, I felt both of those were pretty good stoppages. If they would've continued, it only would've gotten worse. McFedries was sitting there getting smacked around, not doing anything besides putting his hands on his heads. Not doing much to defend himself in my opinion. If that fight would've continued, Cote would've EPT punching him until McFedries got seriously hurt.
The Crane fight was a little too early for my liking, but I think it was the same situation as Cote/McFedries. If it went on any farther he would've got hurt even more and wasn't exactly defending himself.
killjoy
1/24/08 5:53:18PM
whoever didnt like the decisions the ref's make maybe you should become a ref then and have people bash your decisions for letting it go too far (or too short)
jocksmall
1/24/08 6:36:57PM
both stops were ok to me. niether guy was intellegently defending and the outcome was pretty certain. the very small chance a guy comes back isnt worth the risk of potential injury which could occur while waiting to see if the guy recovers.
rcg916
1/24/08 7:06:25PM

Posted by gsquat

In this case its not about whether or not McFedries was out (because he was never unconscious or even close) ....



He wasnt out? What, was he just starting a new trend of taking a seat during the fight to rest his legs then?



He was out. Sorry.
iwannabesedated
1/24/08 7:35:51PM
Its alot different watching the fight on tv than actually being in there to see whats going on.I mean watching on tv its hard to see if a fighters eyes roll back in his head or hearing a bone break until they slow it down on a replay.Thats the ref's job to pay attention to the fighters state of health after taking a hard shot or whatever.I think the refs do a good job..Id rather see an "early stoppage" than the next days headline read another MMA death.
Rush
1/24/08 7:45:23PM
My wife asked me about stoppages last night and I'll mention what I said to her.

She asked why some fights are stopped really quick when a guy is knocked out/down and others are not.

I said that in the case where one fighter gets knocked out/down and the other fighter is right on top of him (i.e. can rain down multiple blows right away) those fights tend to get stopped a little more quickly. i.e. even a flash knockout can be enough to prevent a fighter from protecting themselves against the immediate 2 or 3 shots to the head that follow.

However, in some stand up exchanges, a fighter might fall back. In this case there is usually a couple seconds before the other fighter fully engages the other and thus if it was a flash knockout there might be time for the fighter to recover and defend against a follow up attack.


Now in the case with Drew, I think it was a good stoppage.There was no way he was getting up or out of that barrage of punches.

With Crane, I think it was stopped a little early. Having said that, I don't think Crane would have recovered anyways, but Dean could have given it another second or two.

I guess if you look at it that way, it really depends on what you consider a good stoppage?

1) One that puts the fighter at risk, but prevents potential controversy or complaints from the audience or fighter

2) One that solely protects the fighter's well being.
jiujitsufreak74
1/24/08 7:48:44PM
i agree except for the mcfedires fight even though i picked him to win. he was not getting out of the position, not intelligently defending himself, and if you remember correctly didn't chuck liddell get up right after the rampage fight? and there is no question he was out so just because he got up right after doesn't mean he wasn't hurt badly right before the stoppage. with that said herb does have odd stoppages but the pelligrono/crane one wasn't too bad because kurt would have finished him soon anyway and then crane would have been seriously hurt.

EDIT: rush posted at the same time as me and i would like to say i 100% agree with his assessment on perspectives of fight stoppages
Rush
1/24/08 9:42:31PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

EDIT: rush posted at the same time as me and i would like to say i 100% agree with his assessment on perspectives of fight stoppages




thank you sir. I was quite pleased with that post.
Jackelope
1/25/08 12:13:50AM
Really thought there'd be more support for this one, but I'll elaborate on why I think this.

First off- at first I thought the McFedries fight was a good stoppage. Then, after reviewing it (thank you, DVR) you see that yes, he did take a hit, and yes he did go down (never denied that) but all the punches Cote threw in those 1 or 2 seconds before Dean jumped in hit McFedries on the forearms. If you don't believe me, and you happened to DVR it, go and watch the replay in slow-mo. One sneaked through a little bit, but hardly a big hit. Kudos to Cote (who I actually like, even though I picked against him) for following up his big hit and going straight to the ground, but it's my opinion that the hit McFedries took didn't put him completely out, and while his covering up was not exactly an "active" defense, it was certainly getting the job done and I think as a well established fighter he deserved more time to recover.

I'm not a beginner MMA fan, or even a beginner martial artist, so we can have this talk without trying to talk to me like I've never watched a fight before in my life. I just know as a fighter, I would have been a little disappointed that the ref stopped that fight before I was totally out.

As for Crane, yes he was on his way out the door, and probably would have only lasted another 20-30 seconds, but I still think it was an early stoppage. I'm not saying I want to see guys in there dying, but I've seen much worse beatings laid out in the history of MMA. These guys train for months and months and months to get into these fights, and to have them called on a flash knockout is jipping the fighters in my humble opinion.

For references on other flash KO's in which the fighter came back to win let's take Jardine vs. Liddell, Houston Alexander vs. Jardine, Big Nog vs. Heath Herring last year, Pellegrino vs. Crane at the beginning, etc. etc. There's way too many to list. I've never said that the ref's job was easy, and you could look through all the hundreds of posts I've done on this site and see that I've never bashed a referee before. Unfortunately, Herb Dean is known for this exact thing and as a fan I found myself disappointed.

Now, discuss...
Aaronno9
1/25/08 8:19:30AM
It was mcfedries fault that fight was stopped if he wasnt out. Yeh, all of the punches when he was down where pretty much blocked, but drew made now attempt to kick cote away or pull guard. The punches that where thrown before the fight was stopped might of been blocked, but it was only a matter of time before they started getting through becouse drew just did nothing to stop cote pounding on him (even if at that point he was only hitting arms). Just somthinng as simple as trying to kick cote away would of made herb realise he wasnt out and the fight wouldnt of been stopped so early. Good call by the ref imo.
Jackelope
1/25/08 3:01:49PM

Posted by Aaronno9

It was mcfedries fault that fight was stopped if he wasnt out. Yeh, all of the punches when he was down where pretty much blocked, but drew made now attempt to kick cote away or pull guard. The punches that where thrown before the fight was stopped might of been blocked, but it was only a matter of time before they started getting through becouse drew just did nothing to stop cote pounding on him (even if at that point he was only hitting arms). Just somthinng as simple as trying to kick cote away would of made herb realise he wasnt out and the fight wouldnt of been stopped so early. Good call by the ref imo.



That I'll definitely agree with.

I don't know if McFedries lost his heart for the fight after last year's events, but yeah he really should have at least kicked Cote away or something. Obviously it aint easy being up against the cage and trying to do all that, though.
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