Henderon overated?

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johny_rotten
6/1/07 7:00:21PM
Am I alone in thinking this? I know he holds two belts in Pride, but I don't think he is among the top at 205. I still think he lost to Bustamantle at Shockwave. It was a close descion. After that he went 1-1 with Misaki, and looked horrible in both fights. Then a lack luster performance against Vitor. He exploded on Wandy, but what Wandy was that? The guy who got destroyed by Cro Cop, or the MW champ?

I am taking nothing away from Dan. I think you can put him in there with anyone, and it makes for a good fight, but I don't think he is near the best at 205 in either organazation. Lil Nog walked through him, and I am pretty confident that Shogun would too.
nickcuc547
6/1/07 7:08:59PM
he is overrated at 205, but i think he is the best at 185, only one loss to misaki at that weight which i think he won even tho he looked bad, but when hendo is at his best there is nobody at 185 that can beat him
kimoron
6/1/07 7:15:10PM
henderson deserves all the credit he gets. hes only lost to the best and his lackluster preformances were against boring fighters. wandy was healthy and ready to go when they fought so saying his loss to mirko had something to do with hendo winning is a little rediculous. as for shogun, his fate against hendo would be the same as wandys.
MisFiT
6/1/07 7:17:28PM
If anything Hendo is underrated.
johny_rotten
6/1/07 7:35:01PM

Posted by kimoron

henderson deserves all the credit he gets. hes only lost to the best and his lackluster preformances were against boring fighters. wandy was healthy and ready to go when they fought so saying his loss to mirko had something to do with hendo winning is a little rediculous. as for shogun, his fate against hendo would be the same as wandys.



Boring fighters??????? Vitor has been called many things, but I don't remember boring being one of them. Misaki is one of Japan's most beloved fighters, because of how exciting he is. Not many who have seen him fight have said he is boring.

I think you are out of your mind thinking Dan would walk through Shogun. Dan has had 4 fights at 205 in the past 5 years, and he lost 2 of them. Both guys who defeated Dan, Arona, and lil Nog, were both defeated by Shogun.
kerazzle
6/1/07 8:43:16PM
before he beat wanderlei he was underrated. Now I think he is overrated. i think Filho could beat him at MW or Denis Kang. and at LHW there are several people who can and have beaten him like Arona and Lil Nog. And Shogun I think would beat him as well.
hippysmacker
6/1/07 8:44:27PM

Posted by MisFiT

If anything Hendo is underrated.



I agree. One thing that I think some people might not recognize is that he has kept growing as a fighter, and he learns from his mistakes. Now that he's allied his camp with Shawn Tompkins, I think it's no coincidence that he finally started throwing combos. Look how much Tompkins did to improve Sokoudjou's standup, he was just a judo guy, a few short years ago. A buddy of mine trains with them in Temecula, and he says all of them are buzzing about how this alliance is helping both camps fighter's. He used to just uncork that heavy right and clinch a lot. I have #1 P4P now. He lost to Misaki before the Tompkins merger and could have taken him down if he really wanted to IMO. My buddy said Hendo was sick of all the "Decision Dan" talk and wanted to prove he could KO a standup fighter, because he didn't fear Misaki's power at all. He just got outpointed. I think if that fight happens now he would even beat him standing. Worse case scenario he would take him down, Ala Trigg, and GnP him. Just my opinion of course, but the inside info fuels my belief.
cmill21
6/1/07 8:50:41PM
I think Henderson is a great fighter. I don't think he would beat shogun. Wanderlei was fine during that fight against hendo, his agressiveness is what got him ko'd, and I don't think he respected henderson's power.
kerazzle
6/1/07 9:11:03PM

Posted by cmill21

I think Henderson is a great fighter. I don't think he would beat shogun. Wanderlei was fine during that fight against hendo, his agressiveness is what got him ko'd, and I don't think he respected henderson's power.


I thought Wanderlei wasnt very agressive (for wanderlei) nad he seemed a little hesitant. Still a great W for Dan tho.
cmill21
6/1/07 9:58:09PM
I agree I wasn't impressed with his performance either, I think he was trying to be his agressive self. BUT he fights far to often IMO, and he's burning out, and therefore isn't as effective while still trying to fight how he's accustomed to.
kerazzle
6/1/07 10:08:49PM
yea you're right. Taking a year off was a good decision for him.
p_unit23
6/2/07 11:28:08AM
yes, he is overrated.
Fanboy 1988
6/2/07 12:07:48PM

Posted by MisFiT

If anything Hendo is underrated.



Yup
mkiv9secsupra
6/2/07 12:48:18PM
at 205 he is overrated. At 185 he is the BEST. Im glad he didnt come over at 185 to fight anderson silva....i mean i dont like anderson but i dont want him to die..... I dont think Henderson can beat Jackson, Arona, Shogun, Liddell, Lil Nog....etc... He is a top ten but definitely NOT a top 5. If given the chance Wandy will come back at beat him...
cmill21
6/2/07 1:08:04PM
I agree he beat an exhausted wanderlei
Junior24
6/2/07 4:40:45PM
No. I agree Wandy shouldnt have faught so soon. Dan is the lighter version of Randy w/a harder punch.
cmill21
6/2/07 4:50:08PM
wanderlei's still relatively young (30) so I don't think a year off would damage his career if he keeps training and studying new fighters. Most of the premier fighters are 30-35 range with liddell and coture being the big exceptions at 37 and 43 respectively.
Mastodon2
6/2/07 6:47:58PM
I watched the Ninja / Henderson fight at Pride Championship Chaos today, and yes, I do think Hendo is overrated, way overrated.

Ninja was allover him in that fight, taking him down at will, outstriking him, switching between full mount, side control and half guard as he pleased, dominating Hendo for 3 rounds, but still lost by some dodgy split decision.

Ive just never been impressed by Hendo.
kaduey
6/2/07 7:09:29PM

Posted by kerazzle

before he beat wanderlei he was underrated. Now I think he is overrated. i think Filho could beat him at MW or Denis Kang. and at LHW there are several people who can and have beaten him like Arona and Lil Nog. And Shogun I think would beat him as well.



Denis Kang couldn't beat Henderson but Filho would handle him easily. I mentioned Henderson being overrated on another post. Hendo is a world class fighter who can hang with most guys but he won't hold his belts for too long if he fights Shogun, Filho or Rampage.
cmill21
6/2/07 7:52:44PM
NEVER say coulden't beat, not in 2007 the year of WTF and OMG.
kerazzle
6/3/07 4:37:48AM

Posted by kaduey


Posted by kerazzle

before he beat wanderlei he was underrated. Now I think he is overrated. i think Filho could beat him at MW or Denis Kang. and at LHW there are several people who can and have beaten him like Arona and Lil Nog. And Shogun I think would beat him as well.



Denis Kang couldn't beat Henderson but Filho would handle him easily. I mentioned Henderson being overrated on another post. Hendo is a world class fighter who can hang with most guys but he won't hold his belts for too long if he fights Shogun, Filho or Rampage.


Dont count out Denis Kang man, hes got a good skillset and determination to beat Hendo. Henderson is world class tho just like you said, it would be a really hard fight for Denis.
rameydl8
6/3/07 10:41:40AM

Posted by MisFiT

If anything Hendo is underrated.



he may have had bad fight before but when u hold 2 belts in pride the u deserve all the talk you get
tomp6581
6/3/07 12:12:04PM

Posted by MisFiT

If anything Hendo is underrated.



I agree 100%.
Spiderman
6/4/07 2:46:12PM

Posted by Mastodon2

I watched the Ninja / Henderson fight at Pride Championship Chaos today, and yes, I do think Hendo is overrated, way overrated.

Ninja was allover him in that fight, taking him down at will, outstriking him, switching between full mount, side control and half guard as he pleased, dominating Hendo for 3 rounds, but still lost by some dodgy split decision.

Ive just never been impressed by Hendo.



Half of Dans wins are from Dodgy decisions Kondo , Busta , big Nog the first Misak fight , ect . That is how he got the nick " Decision Dan "

PS Ninja is one of the most underated fighters He beat Hendo , but he also beat Rampage and got robbed in that one also , and did pretty good against Arona , but since he got caught Early against Kang , and lost to Filho [ the best 185 lb fighter ] most mma fans think he sucks . After he destroys joey villasnor he will hopefully start getting respect again
Spiderman
6/4/07 2:57:29PM

Posted by rameydl8


Posted by MisFiT

If anything Hendo is underrated.



he may have had bad fight before but when u hold 2 belts in pride the u deserve all the talk you get



What did he do to get those belts ? He won a tourny that was absent of the top 185 lb fighters with the exception of Busta , both those guys cruised through the competion to face each other in the finals . Dan Loses every minute of the fight , but lands a big right hand at the end , and somehow wins the decision ? [ He lost to Busta !!!! ] he then defends his title against a challenger who had no bussiness challenging for the title [ what had Misaki done to fight for the title other than be japanese ? ] , and Hendo mananged to pull out another dodgy dec . Then he fights in the next WW GP [ title not on the line ] This GP has the top Pride WW fighters [ Suloev , Kang , Ninja , Busta , Filho ] But Hendo loses early in the gp to Misaki [ but this time title isnt on the line ] only ww title fights where against Misaki [ He argueabley lost all 3 ]

His LHW belt . He had no business fighting for the LHW belt Lil Nog had subbed him in rd 1 , but the got the shot anyway , against a champion who had no business haveing the title [ he allready lost to arona ] And Shogun is cleary the top Lhw in Pride .

Pride belts have nothing to do with who the best fighters are at each weight in Pride . With the exception of Fedor

Gomi [ lost to Aurillo , and Diaz but still holds the title ]
Aether
6/4/07 3:34:03PM
wanderlei had no business holding the title?

erm... Not every fight needs to be a title defense... it's silly to mix the belt in with tournaments in my opinion. If the belt were on the line in every single fight arona would've been champion for what... an hour? If they're going to involve tournaments and belts together the only way it could really work is if they

A) strip the champion of the belt and put it on the line as the main prize
B) have #1 contender be the prize for winning

The first option doesn't seem very viable to me because it forces the current champion to compete in every tournament for his weight class whether he is in good health or not, and the champ shouldn't have to win his belt back before losing it to begin with. This really only works if you're creating a new title or filling a vacated title spot. The second option means either the champ wouldn't fight in the tournament at all, or if he did his belt wouldn't be on the line during the tournament.

Anyway, you're crazy if you think Arona is a better fighter than Wanderlei regardless of if he won that first fight. The only reason shogun didn't get a shot at the title is because they wanted to give Arona a shot at it because he was the first person to beat Silva in like 5 years (with his patented Lay n Pray) and then he lost when he had his chance at the belt. I'd be willing to bet that Shogun was next in line if Coleman hadn't broken his arm.

I agree with most of your points pertaining specifically to henderson, but I strongly disagree with the comments about wanderlei not deserving the belt, and what I'm assuming is an implication that gomi doesn't deserve it either. I'd be willing to bet that the fact that the belt isn't on the line plays a big part in the mentality of both fighters as well. The underdog still has just as much to prove by beating the champ, but the champ knows the outcome is essentially irrelevant. Not like I think gomi or wanderlei went in there to lose, but when everyone says you're the best for years on end and you sport a 5:1, 6:1, 9:1 win/loss ratio you probably don't care quite as much when you know you're still the champ at the end of the day regardless of what happens. Marcus might have beaten Gomi when the belt was not on the line, but look what happened when it was... same with arona/silva, and frankly I think we'll be seeing a similar storyline with gomi/diaz at some point, but only time will tell.
kerazzle
6/4/07 4:05:49PM

Posted by Spiderman


Posted by rameydl8


Posted by MisFiT

If anything Hendo is underrated.



he may have had bad fight before but when u hold 2 belts in pride the u deserve all the talk you get



What did he do to get those belts ? He won a tourny that was absent of the top 185 lb fighters with the exception of Busta , both those guys cruised through the competion to face each other in the finals . Dan Loses every minute of the fight , but lands a big right hand at the end , and somehow wins the decision ? [ He lost to Busta !!!! ] he then defends his title against a challenger who had no bussiness challenging for the title [ what had Misaki done to fight for the title other than be japanese ? ] , and Hendo mananged to pull out another dodgy dec . Then he fights in the next WW GP [ title not on the line ] This GP has the top Pride WW fighters [ Suloev , Kang , Ninja , Busta , Filho ] But Hendo loses early in the gp to Misaki [ but this time title isnt on the line ] only ww title fights where against Misaki [ He argueabley lost all 3 ]

His LHW belt . He had no business fighting for the LHW belt Lil Nog had subbed him in rd 1 , but the got the shot anyway , against a champion who had no business haveing the title [ he allready lost to arona ] And Shogun is cleary the top Lhw in Pride .

Pride belts have nothing to do with who the best fighters are at each weight in Pride . With the exception of Fedor

Gomi [ lost to Aurillo , and Diaz but still holds the title ]


Yea I gree with you on this, he really didnt do much to win the two belts. It wasnt too long ago that Henderson was considered a paper champion. (following his loss to misaki) But he seems to have stepped it up and looks improved.
Spiderman
6/4/07 4:10:16PM

Posted by Aether

wanderlei had no business holding the title?

erm... Not every fight needs to be a title defense... it's silly to mix the belt in with tournaments in my opinion. If the belt were on the line in every single fight arona would've been champion for what... an hour? If they're going to involve tournaments and belts together the only way it could really work is if they

A) strip the champion of the belt and put it on the line as the main prize
B) have #1 contender be the prize for winning

The first option doesn't seem very viable to me because it forces the current champion to compete in every tournament for his weight class whether he is in good health or not, and the champ shouldn't have to win his belt back before losing it to begin with. This really only works if you're creating a new title or filling a vacated title spot. The second option means either the champ wouldn't fight in the tournament at all, or if he did his belt wouldn't be on the line during the tournament.

Anyway, you're crazy if you think Arona is a better fighter than Wanderlei regardless of if he won that first fight. The only reason shogun didn't get a shot at the title is because they wanted to give Arona a shot at it because he was the first person to beat Silva in like 5 years (with his patented Lay n Pray) and then he lost when he had his chance at the belt. I'd be willing to bet that Shogun was next in line if Coleman hadn't broken his arm.

I agree with most of your points pertaining specifically to henderson, but I strongly disagree with the comments about wanderlei not deserving the belt, and what I'm assuming is an implication that gomi doesn't deserve it either. I'd be willing to bet that the fact that the belt isn't on the line plays a big part in the mentality of both fighters as well. The underdog still has just as much to prove by beating the champ, but the champ knows the outcome is essentially irrelevant. Not like I think gomi or wanderlei went in there to lose, but when everyone says you're the best for years on end and you sport a 5:1, 6:1, 9:1 win/loss ratio you probably don't care quite as much when you know you're still the champ at the end of the day regardless of what happens. Marcus might have beaten Gomi when the belt was not on the line, but look what happened when it was... same with arona/silva, and frankly I think we'll be seeing a similar storyline with gomi/diaz at some point, but only time will tell.



Did you watch Gomi vs Aurillo 2 , or Silva vs Arona 2 ? sounds like you didnt , I think you are just getting your info from fightfinder ? " Marcus might have beaten Gomi when the belt was not on the line, but look what happened when it was " Did you confuse the Aurillo fight with the Ishida fight ? There was nothing convinceing about Aurillo Gomi 2 , or Silva arona 2 .

You are obviously not a fighter , but I AM and I know pride is on the line every single fight , and its just stupid of you to think that Silva wasnt 100 % commited to winning the Gp " the outcome is essentially irrelevant " That could not be more wrong did you catch the fan reaction to Diaz beating Gomi ?

FYI Silva was not the best 205 lb fighter in Pride ! He never fought Lil Nog , he never fought Shogun , he never fought Arona till he lost to Him ! He never fought any ground based Wrestlers like Randleman [ Wrestlers allways give Silva trouble as he dosent have a strong ground game ] He didnt fight Overeem who would have given him trouble ... He was protected , and even lost a fight while holding the title . MMA isnt boxing there is no Organisation to make fighters fight the top contenders , the belts are owned by the Promoters and they can make the fighters fight whoever they want . With the exception of the HW belt the Pride belts are worthless .
Aether
6/4/07 4:58:40PM
I didn't claim that gomi destroyed aurelio, or that Silva destroyed Arona I said that when the belt was on the line they both defended it successfully. I also didn't say that Wanderlei was the best fighter at 205, I agree that Shogun is better, you're just making assumption and launching ad-hominem attacks to make your point which is devoid of logic seem more relevant. I said that he deserved his belt because he successfully defended it each time it was on the line. How can you argue that he doesn't deserve his belt as a result of his loss to Arona in a non-title match when he subsequently beat him in a title match? It makes no sense. If chuck Liddell had beaten Rampage last week would you be arguing that he doesn't deserve his UFC belt because he lost to him 4 years ago in a non-title affair? Can you justify your logic to me? Maybe it would make some sort of sense if both of these losses hadn't been avenged in title bouts.

What does the fan reaction to a fighter losing have to do with anything? Gomi still holds the title regardless of what trash people like you are talking on forum boards. Do you think he cares? What's stupid is for you to assume you know the mindset of every human being who partakes in a given activity. Gomi has actually stated flat out that he doesn't really care about winning or losing, he just enjoys fighting, so I guess your assumption that all fighters fight for their pride is wrong.

Different people have different mentalities, and believe it or not most people perform a lot better when they know they have something _tangible_ to lose(this does not include your all-important stamp of approval). To say that someone doesn't care and to say that someone won't perform as well when the incentive of defending their position as #1 is removed are 2 different things. I'm sure he was committed to winning the GP, but I'm sure he also realized that he had nothing to lose and that he was so supremely confident after a 5 year winning streak that you can't compare his motivation or mindset between Arona 1 and 2. Nevermind the fact that I said flat out in my first post that I did not believe they walked in thinking "I don't care", simply that knowing they would still be the champ at the end of the fight removes one very major incentive to win (not all incentive).

I'm sure you are part of a secret brotherhood who understands every MMA practitioner's personal feelings and motivations because you sparred at your local karate dojo a handful of times, but If you're unable to carry on a discussion without calling people names you should probably head over to sherdog.
johny_rotten
6/4/07 8:36:02PM
Kudos to the two guys who jumped on Henderson. Two of the worst descions ever were Dan vs Ninja and Dan vs Bustamantle(the other two would be Ricco vs Nog and Rampage vs Ninja.) Granted he KOed Wandy, but he didn't deserve to be in that ring. Since Shogun wouldn't fight Wandy Lil Nog was the #1 challenger. He defeated Dan, defeated Overeem twice, Nakamura, and is the only fighter to take Shogun the distance. The problem is the fight was in America, so Pride choose an American olympian rather than the best fighter out there.

I agree with everyone that the Pride belts mean crap. The problem is the last MW title fight meant a lot. With the UFC purchase of Pride who ever holds that belt gets an instant shot at the UFC LHW champion. There is no way Dan Henderson deserves that oppurtunity. He is 2-1 at 205 in his last 3 fights, and 1-1 in his last two fights at 185.

The UFC should have intoduced Shogun carrying his 2005 MW GP belt, as the last man to defeat Rampage, and the next man to fight for the UFC belt.
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