Who did you guys have winning the decision in the main event?

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POLL: Who won the decision?
Sanchez 28% (16)
Kampmann 72% (42)
FastKnockout
3/3/11 11:21:09PM
I had Sanchez.
Kpro
3/3/11 11:26:36PM
I had Kampmann 29-28.
grappler0000
3/3/11 11:27:23PM

Posted by Kpro

I had Kampmann 29-28.



Kpro
3/3/11 11:32:34PM
I think Grappler0000 would beat them both though.
FastKnockout
3/3/11 11:35:27PM
I might be a little biased, but I think Sanchez did enough to edge out the second round, and the third was his without a doubt.
ncordless
3/3/11 11:39:05PM
I had Kampmann 30-27.

The first round was dominant for Kampmann. The only question was whether it was a 10-9 or 10-8, but I gave it 10-9.

The second round was the closest round of the fight. Kampmann again dominated the first 3:00, landing his jab at will. But then Diego had two instances where he got Kampmann up against the cage. I thought Diego got the better of both those exchanges, but not in a way that overcame the rest of the round.

The third round, Kampmann began getting space and landing his jab again. Kampmann was visibly fatigued about two minutes in, and Diego landed his only takedown of the night. He did no damage while on top, and Kampmann escaped almost immediately. Kampmann then landed a right hand that made Diego start bleeding really bad out of the right side of his face, breaking his hand in the process. Diego got Kampmann against the fence one more time and flurried, not landing this time. Kampmann ended the fight landing his one good hand liberally on Sanchez.

I could see giving the second to Diego, but in my opinion the third round wasn't that close.

The fight was close enough that I wouldn't call it a robbery, but I thought the wrong fighter won.
MMAFightClothes
3/3/11 11:45:59PM
Kampmann won the fight in my opinion. I gave the second to Diego, but the third was Kampmann's. Did you see the giant gash in Diego's face? I think that was the punch that broke Martin's hand.
DeadHead988
3/3/11 11:47:09PM
I thought it was a draw. first round was completely kampann, third round was completely sanchez, round 2 should have been 10-10, but the damn judges fail to recognize that it is OK to score a draw round.
DeadHead988
3/3/11 11:48:58PM
Can you add a draw option?
Aether
3/3/11 11:53:47PM

Posted by ncordless

I had Kampmann 30-27.

The first round was dominant for Kampmann. The only question was whether it was a 10-9 or 10-8, but I gave it 10-9.

The second round was the closest round of the fight. Kampmann again dominated the first 3:00, landing his jab at will. But then Diego had two instances where he got Kampmann up against the cage. I thought Diego got the better of both those exchanges, but not in a way that overcame the rest of the round.

The third round, Kampmann began getting space and landing his jab again. Kampmann was visibly fatigued about two minutes in, and Diego landed his only takedown of the night. He did no damage while on top, and Kampmann escaped almost immediately. Kampmann then landed a right hand that made Diego start bleeding really bad out of the right side of his face, breaking his hand in the process. Diego got Kampmann against the fence one more time and flurried, not landing this time. Kampmann ended the fight landing his one good hand liberally on Sanchez.

I could see giving the second to Diego, but in my opinion the third round wasn't that close.

The fight was close enough that I wouldn't call it a robbery, but I thought the wrong fighter won.



Unable to prop you, but I agree with every word.

Diego was swinging wildly and Kampmann was constantly just out of range of his punches. I'm sure that any judge who had Kampmann's back to them would believe that Diego was landing freely, but he wasn't. Diego landed maybe 4 significant punches in the entire fight and they were pretty much all during the flurry at the end of the second round.

Pushing forward and swinging wildly while getting your face turned into hamburger and missing everything shouldn't give you the round. It's crazy to me. I firmly believe that judges need to be given some kind of monitor in a room sequestered from the cage so that they can see what the camera sees at any given angle and that this is the cause of most poor judging.

The idea that being physically closer to the cage gives you a better view is pretty moronic. I have like 10 HD camera angles with slow motion and replay features, some of them are bird's eye view, do you seriously want to tell me that because you're sitting at a table near the cage that you can see more? Are the judges running in circles around the ring and flying above it simultaneously?

Keith Kizer would have you believe so.
grappler0000
3/3/11 11:54:00PM
Fightmetric is under a virtual DOS attack at the moment...I'm curious to see what their numbers are.
Aether
3/3/11 11:57:00PM

Posted by grappler0000

Fightmetric is under a virtual DOS attack at the moment...I'm curious to see what their numbers are.



Yeah, I'm sure everyone is rushing to see the numbers on that fight and maybe a couple others.

How about the crazy ass scores in the Mizugaki fight? 30-27 27-30??? How the **** does that happen? Baffling.
DeadHead988
3/3/11 11:58:27PM

Posted by grappler0000

Fightmetric is under a virtual DOS attack at the moment...I'm curious to see what their numbers are.


Fightmetric had it rather one-sided for Kampann
Aether
3/3/11 11:59:50PM

Posted by DeadHead988


Posted by grappler0000

Fightmetric is under a virtual DOS attack at the moment...I'm curious to see what their numbers are.


Fightmetric had it rather one-sided for Kampann



Not surprising at all, Diego seriously missed nearly every single one of his crazy wild punches. Diego's face was literally so badly deformed at the end that he couldn't speak properly anymore.
Kpro
3/4/11 12:01:32AM
It's very unfortunate how judges and many fans alike see technical fluid fighters landing repeatedly and fail to realize that they are throwing with a lot of power; they are just high level enough of strikers to use efficiency of motion to where it appears they aren't throwing "power punches". And then you have fighters who lack efficiency of motion, that throw haymakers and get credited for "power punching".

Kampmann landed a lot more punches, did a lot more damage, and landed at a much higher ratio while stuffing takedown after takedown. What more can you do to win a decision?
grappler0000
3/4/11 12:01:35AM

Posted by Kpro

I think Grappler0000 would beat them both though.



That may be true, but only at naked leapfrog.
Kpro
3/4/11 12:04:13AM

Posted by grappler0000


Posted by Kpro

I think Grappler0000 would beat them both though.



That may be true, but only at naked leapfrog.



I'm not sure you understand the rules though; you always try to get the hooks in.
Chael_Sonnen
3/4/11 12:17:00AM
Sanchez.
grappler0000
3/4/11 12:19:29AM
Is there anyone that picked Kampmann, yet thought Diego won?
grappler0000
3/4/11 12:20:46AM
Just as suspected...Fightmetric has it 29-28 for Kampmann
gartface
3/4/11 12:30:34AM

Posted by ncordless

I had Kampmann 30-27.



This this this this this.

At no point during that fight did I think that Diego was winning. Martin was controlling, as Kpro said, with his precision striking. It's amazing the Leonard Garcia Effect sways so many judges.
TeamDEY
3/4/11 1:27:01AM

Posted by FastKnockout

I might be a little biased, but I think Sanchez did enough to edge out the second round, and the third was his without a doubt.



agreed
Kpro
3/4/11 2:07:32AM
Martin Kampmann vs. Diego Sanchez (2nd Round)

STRIKING
Kampmann: 27 for 67 for 40.2%
Sanchez: 22 for 77 for 28.5%

TAKEDOWNS
Kampmann: None Attempted
Sanchez: 0 for 7 for 0%
DatBme
3/4/11 2:30:26AM
F those judges... i lost my ass on that fight... Kampmann picked him apart... Diego did better than the first but he still lost all 3... Why do people give people rounds because of relativity?... blows my mind
Pookie
3/4/11 4:10:36AM

Posted by Kpro

Martin Kampmann vs. Diego Sanchez (2nd Round)

STRIKING
Kampmann: 27 for 67 for 40.2%
Sanchez: 22 for 77 for 28.5%

TAKEDOWNS
Kampmann: None Attempted
Sanchez: 0 for 7 for 0%



Takedowns stuffed should count as Effective grappling, or at the very least, Octagon Control.
ChokeUout
3/4/11 4:35:20AM
Right after the fight I had thought Kampmann won 29-28, but wierdly enough, I also thoght Sanchez would get the judges decision.

Unfortunately enough, that's what happened
BlueSkiesBurn
3/4/11 4:39:00AM

Posted by grappler0000

Is there anyone that picked Kampmann, yet thought Diego won?



I did, but I'll get in to it in a second.



Posted by Kpro

Martin Kampmann vs. Diego Sanchez (2nd Round)

STRIKING
Kampmann: 27 for 67 for 40.2%
Sanchez: 22 for 77 for 28.5%

TAKEDOWNS
Kampmann: None Attempted
Sanchez: 0 for 7 for 0%



This is a bit misleading because those aren't the only criteria by which the fight is judged. I'm not sure where you were going with this post, but Diego imposed his gameplan on Kampmann in the second round. Diego dictated the pace and the terms of the second round.

Even if he wasn't able to secure any take-downs, Diego was still controlling the distance and space between the two fighters. In his career, Diego has only landed 27% of his take-downs. He wins fights because he constantly puts pressure on fighters.

As to grappler0000's question, I picked Kampmann, but I felt Diego did enough.


There's several things that people keep forgetting. People often judge fights by how THEY think it should be scored. I judge fights based on how MMA judges score them. If people can follow that.

You see enough MMA fights and you know that it's the little things that make all the differences in a close fight.

Flurries at the end of rounds. The lone take-down in a close fight. Backing up vs. pushing forward. it's those little things. I'm hardly shocked by stuff like this anymore.

I have no words for the Ring-Fukuda fight, but that wasn't even similar to this fight.
jjeans
3/4/11 5:10:57AM
Scored it 30-28 Kampmann, 10-9, 10-10, 10-9. However I also knew when Bruce was reading them out it'd be nodded in the direction of Diego


Posted by gartface

the Leonard Garcia Effect



won diego the fight, not the striking or the grappling, but the octagon control was the only criteria which the fight was scored on.

However Diego did look chinese at the end of it all
Kpro
3/4/11 5:26:41AM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by grappler0000

Is there anyone that picked Kampmann, yet thought Diego won?



I did, but I'll get in to it in a second.



Posted by Kpro

Martin Kampmann vs. Diego Sanchez (2nd Round)

STRIKING
Kampmann: 27 for 67 for 40.2%
Sanchez: 22 for 77 for 28.5%

TAKEDOWNS
Kampmann: None Attempted
Sanchez: 0 for 7 for 0%



This is a bit misleading because those aren't the only criteria by which the fight is judged. I'm not sure where you were going with this post, but Diego imposed his gameplan on Kampmann in the second round. Diego dictated the pace and the terms of the second round.

Even if he wasn't able to secure any take-downs, Diego was still controlling the distance and space between the two fighters. In his career, Diego has only landed 27% of his take-downs. He wins fights because he constantly puts pressure on fighters.

There's several things that people keep forgetting. People often judge fights by how THEY think it should be scored. I judge fights based on how MMA judges score them. If people can follow that.



Those stats aren't misleading. There was nothing said about them, they were simply posted. There's nothing to mislead.

I disagree with you in that you think Diego "imposed his gameplan" on Kampmann in the second round. If landing fewer shots, at a lower percentage, and failing to get a takedown in 7 attempts was his gameplan then you would be correct. And if that really was his gameplan; then his gameplan was to lose round 2.

Also, I can't speak for everyone, but people don't judge fights by how they think they should be scored. They judge fights by how the Unified Rules of MMA state rounds should be scored. We all know judges aren't good at following these rules.

For you to score fights based on being jaded to judge neglect of the Unified Rules, and follow that up by factoring in that known neglect to be the reason you think someone won a round, then you are intentionally reinforcing bad judging and turning a blind eye to the Unified Rules of MMA. I'm glad not everyone views judging the way you do or we'd never see progress.
BlueSkiesBurn
3/4/11 6:46:27AM

Posted by Kpro
Those stats aren't misleading. There was nothing said about them, they were simply posted. There's nothing to mislead.

I disagree with you in that you think Diego "imposed his gameplan" on Kampmann in the second round. If landing fewer shots, at a lower percentage, and failing to get a takedown in 7 attempts was his gameplan then you would be correct. And if that really was his gameplan; then his gameplan was to lose round 2.

Also, I can't speak for everyone, but people don't judge fights by how they think they should be scored. They judge fights by how the Unified Rules of MMA state rounds should be scored. We all know judges aren't good at following these rules.

For you to score fights based on being jaded to judge neglect of the Unified Rules, and follow that up by factoring in that known neglect to be the reason you think someone won a round, then you are intentionally reinforcing bad judging and turning a blind eye to the Unified Rules of MMA. I'm glad not everyone views judging the way you do or we'd never see progress.



Oh, now he's serious. *cracks knuckles*

Misleading they are because you're posting a percentage based striking and take-down system which is really only 1 component of judging criteria. As I said before in another thread, if I poke you in the chest 45 times before you throw an overhand right knocking me out, FightMetric has me winning the fight.

That being said, you're on the losing end of this argument with most experts AND fighters. You posted round two stats. Helwani, White, and Bonnar all scored the second round for Diego.

I think you could have made a more compelling argument, (now that you've made one), for Kampmann in the third than the second.

Also, addressing your point, as a qualitative and quantitative researcher, accounting for human bias and error, does not mean I agree with or wish to perpetuate the situation.

Anyone who's had a background with human subject studies can tell you that recognizing the limitations and biases within a study is actually considered a plus rather than a minus.

I'm not condoning what they do, I have just learned to recognize generalized patterns, nuances, and subtleties over the years that have enabled me to adjust my expectations and viewing lens accordingly.

Do I think the system needs a massive overhaul? Absolutely. But, under the current system, I find that judging the fights based on the aforementioned three criteria that has been established by the horrible MMA judging lessens my anger and frustration with the sport and allows me to view it at a more comfortable level.

I can't intentionally "reinforce" anything because my opinions, beliefs, or criteria have absolutely no effect on the current judging system. "Accounting for" & "reinforcing" are two, ENTIRELY, different things.

I sort of look at it like this; there's always those girls out there that you know you shouldn't chase. As men, we do it anyhow. I don't mind adjusting my expectations, knowing full, good, and well, that she's going to turn out to be exactly what I expected her to be. That being said, I welcome and embrace those instances where I'm pleasantly proven wrong and have the hope instilled in me that not every girl that looks like her, acts a certain way.
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