Being in guard in BJJ vs MMA
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Being in guard in BJJ vs MMA
fedorwins1
8/20/07 11:09:36AM
In BJJ the proper posture in guard is to sit back on your heels and have your head up and your back straight. In MMA though, fighters seems to be content with just putting their head on their opponents chest and not posture and from what I'm told that's the worst thing to do in BJJ. I know in MMA they have GNP, but still wouldn't sitting back on your heels and having your head up be better than being up on your knees and having your head on their chest? A good example of this is Manny from TUF 5. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but can someone educate me?
fullerene
8/20/07 2:12:19PM
Interesting question and I'm sure you'll get different takes than this one. Like many combat sports, you can neutralize a grappler's offense (submissions) by either moving too far away from them or by jamming in close. Posturing up properly puts you out of danger of their legs or arms having leverage while placing your forehead under their chin and keeping your elbows against their ribs doesn't give them the space to pivot their hips or to pull off a limb after they do.
I think both of those strategies are used in both BJJ/sub grappling and in MMA. The difference in each case is what the strategy of the man on top is. Jamming their technique (keeping the head down and tight) keeps you in top position but makes it very difficult to punch with power or to pass guard. Posturing back puts you in a position to try to move outside the legs or to punch down with authority. The reason you might see people avoid this is that in order to posture up you have to put yourself in danger for a split second as you lift your head up, push off your arms or do whatever you do to get your weight bck and upright.
So, basically one is a more agressive way of fighting and one is a more cautious way of fighting, whether it's MMA or submission grappling. At least that's my take.
I think both of those strategies are used in both BJJ/sub grappling and in MMA. The difference in each case is what the strategy of the man on top is. Jamming their technique (keeping the head down and tight) keeps you in top position but makes it very difficult to punch with power or to pass guard. Posturing back puts you in a position to try to move outside the legs or to punch down with authority. The reason you might see people avoid this is that in order to posture up you have to put yourself in danger for a split second as you lift your head up, push off your arms or do whatever you do to get your weight bck and upright.
So, basically one is a more agressive way of fighting and one is a more cautious way of fighting, whether it's MMA or submission grappling. At least that's my take.
Jackelope
8/20/07 2:57:22PM
I've only got a couple years of BJJ experience under my belt. I think what fullerene said is a pretty good analogy, though. It's just a different philosophy much like in standup some guys like to be aggressive and step right in the mix whereas others like to dance around the outside and counter punch.
In BJJ competition it's always about improving your position with the other fighter, so obviously when you're in their guard you want to escape that and try to get side mount or full mount. In MMA some guys don't want to be in any kind of JJ position and they have to worry about escaping and getting the fight back to their feet.
With some guys like Tim Sylvia if you're in his guard obviously he can still reach up and smack the shit out of you, so you'd probably want to go head low in that instance, too.
Just some thoughts
These guys are lightyears in experience beyond myself, though. So I can only guess at the reasons and I'm sure each fight it's a different reason
In BJJ competition it's always about improving your position with the other fighter, so obviously when you're in their guard you want to escape that and try to get side mount or full mount. In MMA some guys don't want to be in any kind of JJ position and they have to worry about escaping and getting the fight back to their feet.
With some guys like Tim Sylvia if you're in his guard obviously he can still reach up and smack the shit out of you, so you'd probably want to go head low in that instance, too.
Just some thoughts
These guys are lightyears in experience beyond myself, though. So I can only guess at the reasons and I'm sure each fight it's a different reason
fedorwins1
8/20/07 5:08:49PM
Thanks guys, very informative.
Rush
8/20/07 5:22:28PM
Just a thought, but to me wrist control is more widely used in BJJ and essential if you are going to sit back in somebody's guard. Sit back in my guard without wrist control and I'll pull you into an arm lock.
In MMA, the rule about not grabbing gloves makes wrist control more difficult, IMO. Therefore, t is more dangerous to just sit back in somebody's guard because they'll maneuver into a better position.
In MMA, the rule about not grabbing gloves makes wrist control more difficult, IMO. Therefore, t is more dangerous to just sit back in somebody's guard because they'll maneuver into a better position.
akumairon
8/21/07 12:08:52AM
wrist control that just seems like a waste of energy
Jackelope
8/21/07 12:44:24AM
Not when you consider that many locks you are able to put on someone from that position involve wrist control.
Svartorm
8/21/07 2:02:23AM
I don't know enough about advanced BJJ to say what way the two styles matter in sub grappling and in MMA, but from what I've seen in ADCC and other grappling comps, is that in sub grappling, the traditional in-guard position of sitting on your heels is much more common.
Like fullerene said, it probably has more to do with what the man in guard intends and what hes comfortable with.
Like fullerene said, it probably has more to do with what the man in guard intends and what hes comfortable with.
Svartorm
8/21/07 2:03:42AM
Posted by akumairon
wrist control that just seems like a waste of energy
If you do it right, its a waste of energy for the guy trying to get his wrists back.
akumairon
8/21/07 1:38:49PM
true but still holding the wrist is pretty much telegraphing what your going to do next (arm bar, Triangle choke etc.) you could tire the guy out trying to get his wrist out, but if you do nothing with it your expending probally the same amount of energy just to hold it there
Jackelope
8/21/07 5:22:53PM
Not necessarily telegraphing when you think of the amount of techniques that can be applied in a wrist lock position. Kimura, Americana, Arm bar, Bicep Scrape, transitions into arm triangle, the list really goes on and on and on to techniques way above my level, feints, different positions like crucifix, pinning the arm to enable a pass or a sweep. I'm no massively practiced BJJ guy but I'm sure somebody on this forum could name a hundred more ways wrist control is important including defensive techniques.
Svartorm
8/21/07 6:24:42PM
Plus it makes the fighter uncomfortable and doesn't allow them to rest. Everyone knows energy conservation is a large part of ground fighting, and thats difficult to do when someone has your wrists clamped down, as you're in danger of being set-up for any number of things. The guy with wrist control isn't neccessarily using much energy either if he uses his weight and grip to control them, as opposed to contested arm strength.
Stickan
8/22/07 5:23:47PM
What I've learned training MMA is what fullerene was saying. You posture up to be active and pass and you put your head on someones chest to be safe.
I'd like to think that I have a pretty good base but what sometimes makes me stay low and not posture up is the loss of balance and the added abilities for my opponent to play with just that.
Also telegraphing posturing up might as fullerene mentioned result in sub attempts on the way up.
The obvious reason for tucking the head to the chest of the opponent is of course to rest. If you've just pulled off a double-leg takedown for the fifth time in a fight there is a pretty good chance you're tired in your lower back and posturing up and having someone constantly dragging you down again might make you want to rest for a minute.
I'd like to think that I have a pretty good base but what sometimes makes me stay low and not posture up is the loss of balance and the added abilities for my opponent to play with just that.
Also telegraphing posturing up might as fullerene mentioned result in sub attempts on the way up.
The obvious reason for tucking the head to the chest of the opponent is of course to rest. If you've just pulled off a double-leg takedown for the fifth time in a fight there is a pretty good chance you're tired in your lower back and posturing up and having someone constantly dragging you down again might make you want to rest for a minute.
madmarck
11/11/07 7:44:09PM
Posted by Svartorm
I don't know enough about advanced BJJ to say what way the two styles matter in sub grappling and in MMA, but from what I've seen in ADCC and other grappling comps, is that in sub grappling, the traditional in-guard position of sitting on your heels is much more common.
Like fullerene said, it probably has more to do with what the man in guard intends and what hes comfortable with.
I see it has its much harder to get a armbar or triangle ona opponent that is farther away. There is less of him you can grab. and if you do throw your legs up for a armbar when someone is sitting back in guard they can easily pass.
Also in BJJ the fighter who is on his back doesnt want to let teh one on top posture up, the guy on bottom wants to hold him down and contorl him. If he posutres up he can pass the guards much easier.