The Greatest 205'er in MMA history

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POLL: Who do you believe is the greatest 205 pound fighter in the history of MMA?
Shogun Rua 34% (20)
Chuck Liddell 36% (21)
Rampage Jackson 0% (0)
Wanderlei Silva 19% (11)
Other 10% (6)
TimW001
5/10/10 11:38:51PM
The reason I chose 205 is because every other division it is pretty clear who has been the greatest champion.

Here are the suspects...

Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua
Notable wins
Lyoto Machida
Kevin Randleman
Chuck Liddell
Rampage jackson
Ricardo Arona
Alistair Overeem
Antonio Rogerio Nogueira

Major Losses
Forrest Griffin
Lyoto
Sobral

Wanderlei Silva
Notable Wins
Michael Bisping
Keith Jardine
Fujita
Ricardo Arona
Guy Mezger
Sakuraba
Rampage Jackson

Major Losses
Rampage Jackson
Rich Franklin
Dan Henderson
Chuck Liddell
Mirko Cro Cop
Ricardo Arona
Mark Hunt
Tito Ortiz
Vitor Belfort

Chuck Liddell
Notable Wins
Wanderlei Silva
Tito Ortiz
Sobral
Jose Landi-Jons
Randy Couture
Jeremy Horn
Alistair Overeem
Vitor Belfort
Guy Mezger
Kevin Randleman
Jeff Monson

Major Losses
Rampage Jackosn
Shogun Rua
Keith Jardine
Rashad Evans

Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson
Notable Wins
Chuck Liddell
Wanderlei Silva
Dan Henderson
Ricardo Arona
Keith Jardine
Kevin Randleman

Major Losses
Forrest Griffin
Shogun Rua

Other notable 205 greats
Tito Ortiz
Sakuraba
Dan Henderson
Rashad Evans
TimW001
5/10/10 11:39:30PM
Looking at the list like this, looking at biggest and most notable wins, I would say Shogun. It really surprises me! I thought I would have said Wanderlei. But I see that Shogun has nearly consistently defeated the toughest competition. Arona fought Wanderlei and Shogun in one night and he defeated Wanderlei and got stomped (almost literally) by Shogun. Even in the re-match, Wanderlei had a ot of trouble edging Arona. I would say Shogun is the greatest ever, followed by Chuck, Rampage, the Wanderlei.

I'm very curious as to what you guys think?
SmileR
5/11/10 12:30:49AM
In history its not even close. No one besides Chuck and Wand should be getting a name in.
Both ruled their devisions with a iron fist, buth looked as close to unstoppable as humanly possible in their prime and both KO'd the elite of the 205 devision for fun.

Shogun hadn't done enough to be mentioned as a great of the devision yet but he still has time. Beating Chuck doesn't carry the weight it would have if he'd have done it 4 years ago but he has beat a solid string of guys. If he goes on a run and rips apart the LHW devision then I'd say he can be called the greatest especially with MMA talent leaping forward as it has but Shogun still has unavenged losses on his record and has never showed the dominance of Chuck or Wand in his career.

Rampage although a legit contender for the belt at all times has never defended it. He's a solid fighter but has never been or will ever be as dominant as Chuck or Wand. I honestly doubt anyone will come close to achieving what Chuck and Wand did from now on.

IMO Chuck takes it for for dominating such a huge amount of elite guys for a really long time with Wand in a close second and Shogun and Rampage limping in way behind them.
Chuck is like the Ali of MMA and it'll take something seriously special to replace him as the best 205'er of all time.

On a side note I said to a buddy after defeating Machida people would start talking about this!
jae_1833
5/11/10 1:09:40AM
Page did defend the title....but only once, against Henderson....
I think it's definately Wanderlei....his win streaks in Pride are of legend....way longer than all other contenders and at the time the competition was every bit as stiff in Japan as it was in the US.
lohmann
5/11/10 2:07:48AM
1a. Chuck Liddell
1b. Wanderlei Silva

2a. Mauricio Rua
2b. Quinton Jackson

I think, if Rua puts together a nice win streak as champion, you could make the argument. Should Jackson fight Rua as most expect, it will determine a strong contender for the best light heavyweight of all time. As of now, though, I think the years of reign by Liddell and Silva during the great PRIDE vs. UFC wars put them ahead of both. They were both considered unbeatable for years.

Liddell held the UFC belt for two years and four defenses, dominated a roster of elite fighters at the time, and was embroiled in epic fights with Randy Couture. (Winning the rematch may be the single greatest accomplishment by any light heavyweight, ever.)

Wanderlei Silva had a fifteen fight win streak in PRIDE and almost held the belt the duration of PRIDE's existence. He won a grand prix and manhandled almost everybody that was thrown at him before being knocked out by Dan Henderson (except an extremely big Mark Hunt and a tough, tough Ricardo Arona).

seanfu
5/11/10 2:26:32AM
This is coming from a really sore Lyoto fan, I think Shogun for sure becuae of how young talented and hpw many fighters he beat that were elite. I don't think Chuck pr Wandy fought competition that stiff or was as dominant. But it's an unfair call for another 8 years rill we have this generations fighters retired.
postman
5/11/10 7:43:53AM

Posted by lohmann

1a. Chuck Liddell
1b. Wanderlei Silva




And only if b=a
sbulldavid
5/11/10 2:10:40PM
The first time I seen Wanderlei fight, he got obliterated by Vitor, Wanderlei only belongs on this if you include Couture. Rampage while I'm a huge fan, he did get knocked out twice by Wanderlei and once by Shogun, if he goes and defeats Rashad and Shogun he would belong in the conversation. Historically I would say that there is a strong case for Chuck but he did lose to Rampage twice and never really fought many people that had a shot at beating him. Shogun IMO was the uncrowned champ of Pride and won the deepest tournament in MMA history, defeating Rampage, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, then he KO'd Overeem and Arona in the same night. To be the Greatest I think you need to beat the greatest and IMO Chuck was UFC champ at a time when Pride had the better fighters. Lil Nog, Shogun, Rampage, those are 3 of the top 5 guys in the UFC right now, and Shogun stood over the top of them when Liddell was in his prime. And I won't even mention Machida, but he will be near the top in a few years, just like Rashad.

Oh and lets, not Forget Silva is still out there lurking somewhere.
Aether
5/11/10 2:20:00PM
If you're talking accomplishments, it has to be Wandy/Chuck. If you're talking skill, it's Shogun IMO.

Main reason Shogun doesn't have a list of accomplishments though is that he was fighting in Wandy's division when he was champ, and wouldn't ever be a contender as a result. Then he had the injuries to his knees, and his career is really just starting right now IMO. He's finally in top shape with nothing holding him back from setting up his own legacy.
AchillesHeel
5/11/10 3:02:41PM
I voted for Liddell, but I think Shogun has a chance to surpass him in a couple of years. Dude's only 28.
1daveufc
5/11/10 3:28:22PM
Well a voted for wandy just for the length of time he was champion and a think the fighters where better quality what wandy was beating than what chuck was beating.But a think Shogun cud break in there because he is only 28 so in 5-6 years time he will of had lots more fights.So if he cud put a good run together now with the level of fighters that are at 205 now been a lot better than they where back then he cud easy do it.WAR SHOGUN!
chickmagnet
5/11/10 3:50:49PM
Chuck and Wandy
mrsmiley
5/11/10 4:20:02PM
As of now Wanderlei hands down for sure.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/11/10 4:34:25PM
sbulldavid
5/11/10 5:23:37PM
Wanderlei Wins Pride MW belt over Sakuraba who was a 183 pound fighter

Defends belt against Kiyoshi Tamura

Defends belt against Hiromitsu Kanehara career record 26-25

Defends belt against Rampage that was the highlight of his reign

Defends belt against Ricardo Arona, wins by split decision

Lost Pride MW belt to Dan Henderson by KO

That was the dominant reign as champion for Wanderlei Silva, he really doesn't belong at the top, Rampage was the only big tournament win he had, I don't know how anybody would have him at the top.

Chuck is the most overrated fighter in history, if the argument was who had the best overhand at 205 it would be Chuck.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/11/10 5:37:51PM
Well if Rampage is on the list and he dominated Rampage twice that has to hold some sort of merit. This is a hard one. I honestly didn't give it much thought after the already created list. Shogun doesn't belong on the list at all because this is his first title and he hasn't even defended it. Rampage can't really be on this list because he got annihilated twice by Wandy and once by Rua. Chuck had some rather epic battles and was defeating top level competition before Rampage ended his reign and he started sliding downhill. I mean we all saw the wins Chuck has...it's either Chuck or Wandy based off the choices.
mrsmiley
5/11/10 8:23:33PM

Posted by sbulldavid

Wanderlei Wins Pride MW belt over Sakuraba who was a 183 pound fighter

Defends belt against Kiyoshi Tamura

Defends belt against Hiromitsu Kanehara career record 26-25

Defends belt against Rampage that was the highlight of his reign

Defends belt against Ricardo Arona, wins by split decision

Lost Pride MW belt to Dan Henderson by KO

That was the dominant reign as champion for Wanderlei Silva, he really doesn't belong at the top, Rampage was the only big tournament win he had, I don't know how anybody would have him at the top.

Chuck is the most overrated fighter in history, if the argument was who had the best overhand at 205 it would be Chuck.



On paper you are very right about Wandy. However and as often happens people forget the finer details after the fact of the matter because we look to the past with our present eyes. Wandy was coming off wins against A very Dangerous Dan Henderson who had yet to be defeated in MMA,along with knocking out Guy Mezger. Wanderlei also managed to beat Sakuraba not once,not twice,but three times. When Wanderlei plowed through Sakuraba in the first fight a lot of people where suprised because many people,along with many professional fighters considered Saku the best fighter in the world after his epic wins over the Gracie family. Silva smashed a lot of those ideas.
Another thing to put into perspective is also the fact that Wandy also stepped up and fought guys out of his weight class like Mark Hunt and Crocop.

Showing he could hang in their with the big boys. Then take into account that when Liddell came over to PRIDE he struggled against Overeem and Mezger before getting beat down by Rampage,who proved he himself was not at the top of the PRIDE mw division. For the entire matter at hand the only fighter I can think of that still holds major relevance that Liddell beat during his title reign is Couture. Tito,Babalu,and Horn are all great fighters and have had sucsuss since then,but with hindsight those victories look less spectacular too but for that time that was quiet something.
I'm in no way trying to say your wrong because an opinion is an opinion at the end of the day,but when it comes to just laying it all out straight on paper you also have to account for the hype that was accompaning those matchups at the time.
Pookie
5/11/10 10:28:50PM
Props Lohmann

I personally feel that Wanderlei's legacy while it was happening was much more impressive than Chucks, but with that said - Wanderlei had more gimme matches.
However, i also feel Rampage and Shogun right now are much better fighters than Wanderlei or Chuck ever were in their respective primes. So its all about what you mean by greatest.

In terms of accomplishments relative to their time, Chuck and Wanderlei did more. But in terms of beating the better competition, i believe the 2.a, 2.b options Rampage and Shogun have beaten the better fighters overall, Shogun the most consistently out of any of the fighters.

Name / W-L in notable matches / Win streak / Overall Record

Shogun 7-3 / (8-2)*, Longest win streak 8 wins, 0 title defenses(19-4)
Wanderlei 9-9-1, Longest win streak 18 wins, 13 title defenses(33-10-1)
Chuck 12-7, Longest win streak 10 wins, 4 title defenses (21-7)
Rampage 9-6, Longest win streak 6 wins, 1 title defense (30-7)


With all the empirical data combined with the talent shown, i believe Shogun makes the best case for what i consider the Greatest 205'er to be.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/11/10 10:38:27PM
Alas Pookie, there is one thing you're neglecting to highlight with regard to your empirical data and that's Shogun's 0 title defenses. Whether or not Rampage only had 1, he still had 1 more than Shogun. Dan Henderson was no slouch of a defense, either. In my opinion, were I to statistically compute your data, I would apply a greater weight percentage to title defenses than notable wins. Regardless of the fact that we can look back and say things like "that wasn't that amazing of a title defense" the fact still remains that, like it or hate it, the person getting the title shot was the number 1 challenger at the time. They always say that in sports the toughest thing to do is repeat as champion because people are no longer caught off guard. I don't think MMA is any exception. I'd actually argue that the problem becomes exacerbated because it's an individual sport that doesn't utilize a tournament format anymore. I am not dismissing anything Shogun has done but I have to agree with the comment made earlier that he still has a legacy to leave and isn't there just yet. The man just became a first time champion.
Caesarrrr
5/11/10 11:17:01PM
as to Wanderlei, you can't look at fight's outside of 205 to decide whether someone is the best 205er. that completely defeats the purpose of saying "205"
BlueSkiesBurn
5/11/10 11:34:12PM
Props for that really good point there. It really seems like we've created our own criteria for judging the best 205'er. Then how does one gauge the Pride Open Weight Grandprix's?
mrsmiley
5/11/10 11:49:51PM

Posted by Caesarrrr

as to Wanderlei, you can't look at fight's outside of 205 to decide whether someone is the best 205er. that completely defeats the purpose of saying "205"



I agree.
It's just that when the guy fighting for the other promotion is strickly fighting only guys at 205 and then the other guy even steps it up and faces guys 20-50lbs bigger than him,well it just makes him look like one bad mofo.
TimW001
5/12/10 12:43:46AM
I'm beginning to love this discussion. You guys are amazing. This is why I picked 205!

Edit:

SO I can't say that I find title defenses all that important. A belt in just a belt. For example, King of the Cage has champions who have 5 round fights but we don't rank those fighter just because they are champion, it's because of notable wins that we rank fights. Although Shogun has never held a championship before this point he was ranked #1 at 205 in 2005 and early 2006.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/12/10 1:06:54AM
A title in the UFC or Pride is way different than a Palace Fighting Championship.
sbulldavid
5/12/10 3:26:20AM
Rampage didn't even know how to defend a knee when Wandy and Rua beat him, if you count everything only as wins and losses Tito belongs in the conversation, and Tito did defend the LHW belt more times than Chuck or Wandy defended their straps.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/12/10 3:44:22AM




Yeah, pretty much. I don't see a rematch with Rua being too productive either.
hate4thestate
5/12/10 4:02:03AM
shogun as of right now period. liddel lost to a dude who shogun didnt just beat but annhilated. shoguns loss to forrest is understandable due to the problems with the knees. coleman which he redeemed. and only lost that one do to his arm breaking. lyoto which he also avenged and really didnt ever lose imho. bablu tho is a legit loss but it was very early in his career. now if shogun were to lose a couple this would change. but the way i see it going and the way it is now its gotta be shogun.

TimW001
5/12/10 5:36:09PM

Posted by sbulldavid
if you count everything only as wins and losses Tito belongs in the conversation, and Tito did defend the LHW belt more times than Chuck or Wandy defended their straps.



Yep, that's a great point. The reason we don't include Tito seriously in the discussion is because he doesn't have extremely major wins. Who's his biggest win against? Forrest Griffin or maybe Evan Tanner.

It's major wins we judge greatness on.
Pookie
5/12/10 7:39:48PM
and as far as major fights is concerned, i think Shogun actually does have the best record.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/12/10 7:47:27PM

Posted by Pookie

and as far as major fights is concerned, i think Shogun actually does have the best record.



Shogun's winning percentage is BARELY better than Rampage's. 82% to 81%

Ramage also has 14 more fights than Shogun.
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