The great Judo debate

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richieb19
1/27/08 8:14:10PM
As some of you might know I'm not too fond of the BJJ stereotype in MMA. Many fans think there is nothing that compares to the usefulness of BJJ towards the grappling side of MMA. Now I'm not puting down BJJ or it's effectivness, I'm simply pointing out how underrated Judo is in the big picture. So here is a list of 20 Judo Black Belts with credible titles (minus the last 3) who are well known in MMA, and their overall record and submission record in the sport:

Yoshihiro Akiyama - 1 World Cup=1st. 1 Continental Title=1st - MMA=10-1-0 (submission wins=5, losses=0)

Fedor Emelianenko - 2 World Cup=3rd X2. 1 National Title=3rd - MMA=28-1-0 (submission wins=14, losses=0)

Manvel Gamburyan - 2 National Title=3rd X2 - MMA=7-2-0 (submission wins=4, losses=1)

Jung Bu-Kyung - 1 Olympic Title=2nd. 3 World Cup=1st, 2nd, 3rd. 2 Continental Titles=1st X2 - MMA=0-1-0 (submission wins=0, losses=0)

Min-Soo Kim - 1 Olympic Title=2nd. 1 World Title=2nd. 4 World Cup=3rd X4 - MMA=4-6-0 (submission wins=2, losses=2)

Christophe Leininger - 2 National Title=2nd, 3rd - MMA=3-4-0 (submission wins=3, losses=1)

Hector Lombard - 2 World Cup=2nd, 3rd. 7 National Title=1st X7 - MMA=14-2-1 (submission wins=4, losses=0)

Kazuhiro Nakamura - 1 National Title=3rd - MMA=11-7-0 (submission wins=2, losses=2)

Pawel Nastula - 1 Olympic Title=1st. 3 World Title=1st X2, 2nd. 16 World Cup=1st, X7, 2nd X5, 3rd X3. 4 Continental Title=1st X3, 2nd. 2 National Title=1st X2 - MMA=1-3-0 (submission wins=1, losses=2)

Naoya Ogawa - 1 Olympic Title=2nd. 7 World Title=1st X4, 3rd X3. 2 World Cup=1st, 3rd. 1 National Title=1st - MMA=7-2-0 (submission wins=5, losses=2)

Michihiro Omigawa - 4 World Cup=1st, 2nd X3. 2 Continental Title=2nd, 3rd. 1 National Title=3rd - MMA=4-6-0 (submission wins=0, losses=0)

Remco Pardoel - 2 National Title= 3rd, 3rd - MMA=9-6-0 (submission wins=6, losses=4)

Karo Parisyan - 1 Continental Title=2nd. 1 National Title=1st - MMA=18-4-0 (submission wins=9, losses=0)

Remeau Thierry Sokoudjou - 2 National Title=1st, 3rd - MMA=4-2-0 (submission wins=0, losses=1)

Makoto Takimoto - 1 Olympic Title=1st. 5 World Cup=1st X2, 3rd X3. 2Continental Title=1st, 3rd. 2 National Title=1st X2 - MMA=4-3-0 (submission wins=1, losses=0)

Yoon Dong-Sik - 1 World Title=3rd. 10 World Cup=1st X6, 2nd X3, 3rd. 4 Continental Title=1st X3, 3rd - MMA=3-4-0 (submission wins=3, losses=0)

Hidehiko Yoshida - 1 Olympic Title=1st. 4 World Title=1st, 2nd X2, 3rd. 2 World Cup=1st X2. 1 Continental Title=1st. 2 National Title=1st, 2nd - MMA=7-5-1 (submission wins=7, losses=1)

...and 3 popular blackbelts with no major titles to their credit:

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - MMA=30-4-1 (submission wins=14, losses=0)

Antonio Rogerio Nogueira - MMA=12-3-0 (submission wins=5, losses=0)

Shinya Aoki - MMA=12-2-0 (submission wins=6, losses=0)




Total Record=177-47-3 ~ 4-1

Submission Record=84-16 ~ 5-1(8 of which are not from actual submission holds but strikes, and 3 of the actual 8 are from people mentionned on the list. The men to win via a legit submission who are not a judo BB themselves are: Semmy Schilt, Josh Barnett X2, Aleksander Emelianenko and Lyoto Machida)
Gipper
1/27/08 9:06:18PM
ya judo is some crazy sh*t. my uncle was a 11 time canadian champ. all the respect in the world for judo
richieb19
1/27/08 9:17:30PM

Posted by Gipper

ya judo is some crazy sh*t. my uncle was a 13 time canadian champ. all the respect in the world for judo

What's his name?
jomatty
1/27/08 9:30:56PM
judo and bjj compliment each other so well (since they are basically the same with the primary focus on different aspects). i absolutely love judo, the thing is that too many judo guys dont spend enough time working their ne waza and rely on throws too much and therefore have trouble when you take away the gi. those that either work hard on their ground games or cross train bjj are incredible. guys like pawel nastula are incredible and capable of so much in mma. why more bjj guys don't cross train judo is beyond me. dave camarillo has some great articles that make this point very clear. too many bjj guys have really poor takedowns and could be so much better if they worked on either judo or wrestling.

WAR JUDO!!!
fullerene
1/27/08 9:31:40PM
There have always been mulitple submission grappling disciplines. Besides Judo and BJJ there is Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Sambo and Catch Wrestling. I never bought into the storyline that the only sub masters were BJJ guys.

At the same time, I do think BJJ has had more top level MMA grapplers than any style, including Judo. I know there is an Olympic track which prevents some of the top players from competing, but I don't know of any straight judoka who has won at ADCC despite the fact that doing so would be both a challenge and an endorsement for their sport. Most of the ADCC winners have been BJJ artists with wrestlers who have learned subs being second most effective. And, although some might head to Gene Labelle and Gokor, most kickboxers and wrestlers who want to "learn the ground game" go to a school with a BJJ pedigree rather than studying judo.

I like judo a lot both as a participant and as a spectator, but the fact that it works a takedown game as well as a ground game, that it uses the gi very heavily and that it has some of the most restrictive rules of any grappling style create some shortcomings for its applicability in MMA.
Svartorm
1/27/08 10:05:08PM
Good points Fullerene. I'd also like to add Judo runs into the same problem as pure wrestling in MMA where they don't train to fight off their backs, and their style doesn't have enough emphasis on submissions, which is why most judo players go to decision, for better or worse.
jiujitsufreak74
1/27/08 10:11:59PM
i personally respect all submission arts but it is no secret where my heart lies (see name). i actually do a combination of judo and Japanese jiujitsu with BJJ thrown in there ass well. Japanese jiujitsu is very underrated and has a lot of solid technique that i find useful in MMA. now, i don't think there is any one style of grappling anymore used in MMA as the styles seem to adopt the qualities of their rival style's such as certain JJ submissions being implemented in judo and judo throws being implemented in JJ. i am 100% with you on the lack of respect judo fighters get. although i personally use more wrestling than judo in my MMA despite taking judo so my heart is more towards wrestling in combination with JJ. i only hope that people read this thread and realize just how effective judo, and sambo, (which is similar *cough* fedor ) can really be. and although it is meant for gi vs gi match ups, judo is very useful with take downs, balance and does have some interesting submissions that i try to implement in my game. despite the shortcomings in MMA that fullrene touched on i still think it is underrated and those shortcomings can be overcome if you use judo in sort of a hybrid style like how karo uses it. i mean, judo also develops a sense of balance and a lot of the shorter , less flashy moves are used a lot in MMA without recognition.
loller90278
1/27/08 11:35:08PM
good thread richie and i whole heartidly agree with you, but aoki does have a judo background, i believe he uses his JJ more than judo in MMA matches
wolfman
1/27/08 11:54:25PM
Hilarious, I was just on the Sherdog forum and I came across an exact replicate of this thread, same title and all. It is word for word the same as your's richieb19. Here is the link: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=720309

He posted it two minutes after you had posted it on this site at 8:16. Looks like someone jacked your thread, unless you also post on Sherdog...
richieb19
1/28/08 12:00:31AM

Posted by wolfman

Hilarious, I was just on the Sherdog forum and I came across an exact replicate of this thread, same title and all. It is word for word the same as your's richieb19. Here is the link: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=720309

He posted it two minutes after you had posted it on this site at 8:16. Looks like someone jacked your thread, unless you also post on Sherdog...

Look at the other threads he's made... that should give you a hint...
wolfman
1/28/08 12:14:59AM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by wolfman

Hilarious, I was just on the Sherdog forum and I came across an exact replicate of this thread, same title and all. It is word for word the same as your's richieb19. Here is the link: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=720309

He posted it two minutes after you had posted it on this site at 8:16. Looks like someone jacked your thread, unless you also post on Sherdog...

Look at the other threads he's made... that should give you a hint...



My bad, didn't take the time to look at "his" other posts to connect it with you. Anyways, just looking out for you. Because I would be pissed if someone went out and copied and pasted something I took a lot of time to write.
Gipper
1/28/08 3:02:43AM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by Gipper

ya judo is some crazy sh*t. my uncle was a 13 time canadian champ. all the respect in the world for judo

What's his name?



joe meli
richieb19
1/28/08 7:44:00AM

Posted by Gipper


Posted by richieb19


Posted by Gipper

ya judo is some crazy sh*t. my uncle was a 13 time canadian champ. all the respect in the world for judo

What's his name?



joe meli

Joe Meli the 3 time Olympian? Nice!

Is he still in Lethbridge? Does he occasionaly come to one of the clubs in Calgary?
StevenSeagal
1/28/08 8:46:07AM
Judo and BJJ share many of the same ground attacks and subs. Non sport Judo looks a hell of a lot like BJJ because many of the subs and moves are either the same or adaptations from Japan. Its the rise of sport Judo that limited the use of subs after the throw. Judo and BJJ aren't as apples and bananas as one may think. More like bananas and plantanes lol... Change the move a bit and add in a funky Japanese word like omohio-zuzuki or whatever and ur almost looking at BJJ...
richieb19
1/28/08 9:13:59AM

Posted by StevenSeagal

Judo and BJJ share many of the same ground attacks and subs. Non sport Judo looks a hell of a lot like BJJ because many of the subs and moves are either the same or adaptations from Japan. Its the rise of sport Judo that limited the use of subs after the throw. Judo and BJJ aren't as apples and bananas as one may think. More like bananas and plantanes lol... Change the move a bit and add in a funky Japanese word like omohio-zuzuki or whatever and ur almost looking at BJJ...

lol at ohomio-zuzuki!
madmarck
1/28/08 1:11:53PM
BJJ graples with Judo guy. Guess who ends up getting tossed onto the mat. Me.
jomatty
1/28/08 11:27:10PM
yeah if a bjj guy grapples with a judo guy he gets tossed on his head but once it hits the ground, assuming it is not a judo match where you can win by ippon, its game on for the bjj guy. it really just depends on the rules. the fact is that most bjj guys spend much much more time on the ground than judo guys so it only makes sense that they would be better on the ground. judo guys spend a lot more time working throws and takedowns so it only makes sense that they would be better at that.

the only thing that i dont like about judo is the short amount of time you have to work or change postion on the ground. sambo seems perfect to me as it seems to be similar to judo but you cant win with ippon and you spend more time on the ground (totally uneducated opinion there). those sambo guys are no joke. there is a russian sambo guy who does some judo with me and that guy puts a hurtin' on me.
sillysnail
1/29/08 4:07:39AM
i don't think its about judo being underrated but more about bjj being much more effective in mma. it is here that i believe there is no debate. bjj>judo in mma. cant argue results.
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