Grappling Rant

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fedorwins1
2/14/08 6:36:04PM
Maybe this is geared more towards the lighter grapplers, but where is the high guard?! Miguel Torres displayed a great guard last night and he took almost no punishment because he used a high guard and neutralized Beebe. The high guard not only lets you avoid punishment, but you can set up submissions a lot easier from the high guard. It's not even that hard to get a high guard, just use the rubber guard to set it up Eddie Bravo style.

My other rant is kind of an expansion to the high guard, but I've seen almost no rubber guard in MMA. Most fighters don't posture all the way up 100% of the time so it's not hard to just reach back and grab your leg and bring it up across their shoulders/neck. Once you have mission control they can't even hit you (if they can it's like a tap in the face) and you have a free hand to sit there on the bottom and punch/elbow them into oblivion.

I just think it's a very under-utilized guard for both grappling and MMA.
postman
2/14/08 7:48:18PM
BJ is about the only guy that uses the Rubber. Maybe others don't feel the control you talk about. I have not been training long enough to know but there must be a reason they don't.
fedorwins1
2/14/08 7:53:45PM
Here's what mission control is for those of you who have no clue what I'm talking about.
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Rush
2/14/08 8:30:03PM
I can't stand the people that hold a tight closed guard and do nothing. I just want to pick them up and slam them.
fullerene
2/14/08 8:31:25PM
I agree. I'd even go further and say that even an offensive guard in general is not used enough. People sit out for a kimura and that's about it.

But the high guard and rubber guard do require some flexibility and leg length. A short, muscular guy like Sean Sherk probably can't fight that way.
bayonetxwork
2/14/08 9:18:23PM
I absolute love the high guard personally. I always try and get a high guard in both mma and grappling. Makes shoulder locks way easier, as well as your basic holds.

I use mission control a lot too. Once again, makes omo/gogoplatas way easier, and can even help to set up a sweep if you can get an under hook.
madmarck
2/15/08 1:37:03AM

Posted by fullerene

I agree. I'd even go further and say that even an offensive guard in general is not used enough. People sit out for a kimura and that's about it.

But the high guard and rubber guard do require some flexibility and leg length. A short, muscular guy like Sean Sherk probably can't fight that way.



Okay but how many times have you seen Sherk but on his back and stalled from bottom?

Also just because someone is muscular doesnt mean they aren't flexible. Its a pretty common misconception.
Svartorm
2/15/08 2:03:45AM
But he is short. I can use a high guard, but only because I've worked flexability for awhile now to be able to go on the attack, but I have a lot of trouble with triangles on guys my size because I have short, stocky legs. Guys like Diaz (both of them), Torres, and Condit have excellet builds for BJJ and can pull stuff like that off easily.
Jackelope
2/15/08 2:42:09AM
I've made this post before. The answers always leave something else to be said...

Honestly mission control, rubber guard, and chill dog all require lots of flexibility, but that shouldn't be a problem for all of these guys competing in MMA at the UFC level. So I don't understand it either. That BJJ display Torres put on blew me away. That was some staight up bad ass BJJ the likes of which you really don't see for some reason in MMA.

I don't know if it's because a lot of these guys are very strong for their weight and the risk of getting slammed is huge or what. Granted even getting slammed shouldn't be a big worry in mission control because you've always got that free hand to sweep the leg should they try to post it for a stand-up-and-slam.

I'm not sure if my memory is serving me correctly or not, but I'm pretty sure Frank Mir used a high guard to "kung fu" (eddie bravo language) sweep to get the toe hold on Tank Abbott. I could be off since it's been a while since I watched the fight, but in any case- if it's true that he did use it, there's another successful application of the high guard.

There was someone else I watched recently (a lower level guy) on TapouT (the show sucks ass, btw) who was trying to use rubber guard but he was one of the dudes Rush is talking about. Just a putz who gets the rubber and does nothing with it. Maybe they don't use mission control to elbow their opponent because of the rules about strikign with the point of the elbow. Who knows.

This question has seriously come to the equivalent level of "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"

fullerene
2/15/08 8:27:21AM
If you're a decent kickboxer or BJJ artist going into MMA, I'd expect you to have that flexibility. If you're a wrestler making the switch in your late 20s there's no reason why you've needed that type of flexibility or should be expected to have it--you might or you might not. And some people--even ones who work hard and are generally good athletes--cannot develop great flexibility. My opinion is that it's similar to strength, speed, endurance--everyone can improve from where they are, but the upper limits for everyone are different. BJJ and kicking styles generally weed out guys who don't have necessary flexibility, but wrestling and boxing don't.
fedorwins1
2/15/08 3:38:05PM
I think it's kind of ridiculous how rubber guard is not used much in MMA. It is almost perfect for it and you have the opportunity to strike there also. I'm pretty short and I'm not crazy flexible, but I can pull of rubber guard. IMO most people can't do rubber guard because they're too far into their opponent's hips, they need to be out from under their hips that makes it so much easier to do.

Some people see the rubber guard as a novelty, but I think it's a very good guard and there's so many variables to it. It's not like all you can do is a gogo or a omaplata from there, there's a ton of sweeps and it throws people off guard too. If you really study into it, you find that it goes a lot deeper than you might think.
Omega
2/15/08 11:59:31PM

Posted by fedorwins1

I think it's kind of ridiculous how rubber guard is not used much in MMA. It is almost perfect for it and you have the opportunity to strike there also. I'm pretty short and I'm not crazy flexible, but I can pull of rubber guard. IMO most people can't do rubber guard because they're too far into their opponent's hips, they need to be out from under their hips that makes it so much easier to do.

Some people see the rubber guard as a novelty, but I think it's a very good guard and there's so many variables to it. It's not like all you can do is a gogo or a omaplata from there, there's a ton of sweeps and it throws people off guard too. If you really study into it, you find that it goes a lot deeper than you might think.



You just made Bravo's day dude. Even I teach my guys this stuff and I be short, wide legs. For the record I don't like high guard nor do I have my guy emphasize it at all.

The reason is that I want my guys forcing the stand up game and moving for butterflies in to destabilize their base. If their opponent forces the guard game then we tell them to go to high guard but only then.
Jackelope
2/16/08 1:52:24AM

Posted by fullerene

If you're a decent kickboxer or BJJ artist going into MMA, I'd expect you to have that flexibility. If you're a wrestler making the switch in your late 20s there's no reason why you've needed that type of flexibility or should be expected to have it--you might or you might not. And some people--even ones who work hard and are generally good athletes--cannot develop great flexibility. My opinion is that it's similar to strength, speed, endurance--everyone can improve from where they are, but the upper limits for everyone are different. BJJ and kicking styles generally weed out guys who don't have necessary flexibility, but wrestling and boxing don't.




I can agree with that on some levels, but being a relatively inflexible guy (naturally have very tight hips in the family) I can still easily pull off rubber guard. It gets a little difficult if I'm going for an invisible collar submission, but it's still absolutely 0 problem to go into mission control.
seanfu
2/26/08 10:15:50PM
Most people focus on escaping from bottom. Rubber guard nuetralizes the oppositions offense while at the same time locking you in bottom. Even if you are beating your opponent up you are losing in the unintelligent eyes of the judges.

I'm 5'7(short as hell) I'm bulky and really strong but I still use rubber guard and mission control. My legs are very short and I'll not be pulling off lanky subs but I can still hit a triangle.

Height is nothing on the ground. The only difference is the distance you can be dangerous from with legs and the difficulty to control you.
richieb19
2/26/08 11:04:15PM
Everybody has different preferences in their guard game. Personally I don't like the rubber due to my stubby legs, however I'll keep my feet on the inside of your hips and flatten you out, sweep you or grab an arm all day long. A high guard doesn't require rubber to be set up, Dean Lister is a perfect example, look at his fight against Sakara.
fedorwins1
2/27/08 3:41:11PM

Posted by richieb19

Everybody has different preferences in their guard game. Personally I don't like the rubber due to my stubby legs, however I'll keep my feet on the inside of your hips and flatten you out, sweep you or grab an arm all day long. A high guard doesn't require rubber to be set up, Dean Lister is a perfect example, look at his fight against Sakara.



I know high guard doesn't need rubber guard to be set up, but you can get to a high guard easier if you're trying rubber guard and it's not working well.
richieb19
2/27/08 6:31:09PM

Posted by fedorwins1


Posted by richieb19

Everybody has different preferences in their guard game. Personally I don't like the rubber due to my stubby legs, however I'll keep my feet on the inside of your hips and flatten you out, sweep you or grab an arm all day long. A high guard doesn't require rubber to be set up, Dean Lister is a perfect example, look at his fight against Sakara.



I know high guard doesn't need rubber guard to be set up, but you can get to a high guard easier if you're trying rubber guard and it's not working well.

You can also screw up mission control and get your guard passed painfully. I know there are ways of avoiding or better yet continuing when you're being passed in this position but I couldn't pull it off and it hurt like hell.
gsquat
2/29/08 10:45:53AM
The first thing I do is go to rubber guard. I like to keep my leg nice and high. Like you said it helps avoid punishment and sets you up for all kinds of submissions (gogo, omo, triangle, armbar).
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