Why do grapplers not try harder to keep the fight on the ground?

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Mayo
3/14/07 2:45:56PM
Why do ground style fighters sometimes only make a couple attempts to put the fight on the ground and then give up and let the fight stay standing? Is it that difficult?

Some examples...

Arlovski beat Tim in their first fight by ankle lock.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Couture beat Chuck in their first fight by ground and pound.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Horn beat Chuck in their first fight by triangle
Yet for the next fight he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.
Jeffanori-Gomi
3/14/07 2:49:43PM

Posted by Mayo

Why do ground style fighters sometimes only make a couple attempts to put the fight on the ground and then give up and let the fight stay standing? Is it that difficult?

Some examples...

Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.



I know from experience, constantly shooting in for a takedown is a lot of work and tires a person out really fast. Hughes tried for the take-down twice but was stuffed and got punished pretty bad.
waylon_o
3/14/07 3:10:56PM
Probably because Chuck Liddell, Tim Sylvia, and GSP are 3 of the hardest people to take down in mma??? Love Sylvia or hate him, Cotoure is the only person that has been able to take him down at will. Jeff Monson couldn't even take him down. When he lost to Frank Mir, Sylvia actually took Mir down (even though he got subbed).
cowcatcher
3/14/07 3:14:07PM
both responses are valid, theres also the chance you get caught on the way in by a hard shot, especially if you keep trying over and over for the take down, it can begin to get telegraphed
madmarck
3/14/07 3:16:45PM
Have you ever tried to take down GSP, Chuck or Tim? Some guys just develop awesome Take down defence. and when they stuff a few in a row. The other guy gets tired and starts thinking he will never get hte takedown.

And with arlovski. In the first fight he didn take Tim down. He punched him so hard he went Ass over Tea Kettles. AA is a striker, havent you watched his fights?
Mayo
3/14/07 3:42:13PM
The thing I've always wondered about AA is that he is a Sambo fighter (which I assume means a focus on takedowns etc.), yet he prefers standup. I know AA likes to strike, but I didn't think he had much of a background in standup striking.
zephead
3/14/07 5:38:23PM

Posted by Mayo

Why do ground style fighters sometimes only make a couple attempts to put the fight on the ground and then give up and let the fight stay standing? Is it that difficult?

Some examples...

Arlovski beat Tim in their first fight by ankle lock.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Couture beat Chuck in their first fight by ground and pound.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Horn beat Chuck in their first fight by triangle
Yet for the next fight he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.



Arlovski dropped Tim with a righthand that enabled him to get the heelhook.

In the first Coutre/Liddell fight, Randy beat Chuck to the punch throughout the begging of the fight. That enabled him to get the fight to the ground and get the TKO. If you rewatch that fight, Chuck stood flatfooted. In the next fight, Randy clinched with Chuck, but couldn't get the takedown. Chuck was moving his feet. Randt threw a left and Chuck sidestepped it and caught Randy on the chin. Goodnight Irene. As for the 3rd fight, Chuck again was moving his feet. Randy got the takedown, but couldn't do anything with it. He got KO'ed again in the nest round.

Horn beat Chuck by the arm traingle choke due to how inexperienced Chuck was. It was only his 3rd fight at the time. Chuck thought he could last out until the bell. For their next fight, Horn knew he couldn't just take Chuck down in the 1st couple of rounds. Chucks takedown defense is suppose to be pretty good. (That's what I hear) He figured he could keep the fight standing and wear Chuck down and then go for the takedown in the 4th round. He looked at the fact that he's never been dropped in over a 100 fights. Bu then again, he's never been hit by Chuck.

As for the Hughes/GSP fight. Someone as strong as GSPand as atheletic as GSP you just can't continuesly go for the takedown. Matt tried a couple of times and GSP just shrugged him off. Threw him aside. Matt had to have been getting frustrated, but he also was probably trying to get GSP a little tired. Back in the dy Coleman and Coutre could take people down at will. Now, fighting in the "beg leagues" it's not like that.
gspfan31
3/14/07 5:53:21PM
agree with the horn/ liddell fight, i don't know why horn felt he had to get tagged 2 or 3 times before going for a takedown
cowcatcher
3/14/07 6:00:04PM
one other reason is that these guys have alot of pride and want to prove they each are the toughest SOB in the world at their respective weight classes. every guy that gets in a cage or ring is incredibly tough and confident and wouldnt be in there if they didnt believe they could beat the guy in front of them.
bayonetxwork
3/14/07 6:13:21PM
Its not so much a matter of them not wanting to, its mostly a matter of not having the opportunity. No matter how good you are, if you can't even close the distance standing(which is what you see when their looking for the takedown), your not going to get the takedown(well unless your like Hulk Hogan...). Anyways, it also takes a huge amount of energy to take someone down, unless your going up against Heath Herring. But the main problem is they need to get close enough to even attempt a shot, or clinch. If they can't do that, your usually stuck seeing a grappler try and strike, and usually getting knocked out.
wkm311
3/14/07 6:30:39PM

Posted by Mayo


Couture beat Chuck in their first fight by ground and pound.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Horn beat Chuck in their first fight by triangle
Yet for the next fight he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.



Both tried on several occasions to take Chuck down and succeeded, well at least randy succeeded, a couple of times. Its just Chucks TD is really good. And another thing is that you have to set up takedowns with strikes, because if you dont, at that level, you will just tire yourself out trying to shoot in from way out.
Stickan
3/14/07 8:06:45PM
Like cow mentioned these guys perform for over a million people all over the world and sometimes pride gets them to do crazy stuff. Hughes has stated many times that he has always been a fan of the knockout and he thought he had got comfortable enough on the feet to strike with GSP. Well he was very very wrong and I guess he wouldn't make that mistake in their next fight but that's why he tried to keep it standing (even though he once or twice made desperate TD attempts.)

Arlovski beat Sylvia standing in their first fight and even if Sylvia would've gotten up. Why wouldn't Arlovski want to continue the stand-up??

Couture beat Chuck standing in their first fight. He beat him mentally by being aggressive and getting the better of the stand-up, Chuck´s area. Then finally when the timing was right, he took Chuck down and pounded him out.

Horn said before the fight that he felt like the more technical striker and that he thought he would actually be able to beat Chuck striking with him so it didn't surprise me that he tried just that.
What did surprise me was that a smart guy like Horn didn't learn anything from getting knocked down over and over. He should've tried harder for the takedown and set the attempts up better.
TheArtOfWar
3/14/07 9:37:00PM
Babalu tryed to rush a takedown and Chuck punished him in their 2nd fight.
Chuck, Mirko , GSP are really good in takedown defence, so you must surprise them to take them down...
Exactly what Randy made with Sylvia!
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MMA
3/14/07 10:54:36PM

Posted by Mayo

Why do ground style fighters sometimes only make a couple attempts to put the fight on the ground and then give up and let the fight stay standing? Is it that difficult?

Some examples...

Arlovski beat Tim in their first fight by ankle lock.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Couture beat Chuck in their first fight by ground and pound.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Horn beat Chuck in their first fight by triangle
Yet for the next fight he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.


Ex. 1 Arlovski is more of a striker than a grappler. In the rematch fight, he was cocky and did not train thinking he would KO Sylvia again and make a easy title defence (it almost happened too). In the rubber match, Arlovski broke (?) his leg in the 1st round so he could no longer use his footwork or shoot, etc.

Ex. 2 Liddell has a legendary sprawl and the amazing ability to stand up quickly after being taken down. Randy simply had trouble getting Chuck on to the ground and pounding him out. Also, Couture was going through some personal issues at the time so that may have affected his performance.

Ex 3. Hughes was a bit arrogant in thinking he could strike with St. Pierre but the few attempts that he made at taking St. Pierre down was because St. Pierre has sick takedown defence. Hughes had St. Pierre in a body lock and St. Pierre pulled off an amazing mid-air sprawl and just broke the body lock, mad skills there.
Stickan
3/14/07 11:05:37PM

Posted by MMA


Posted by Mayo

Why do ground style fighters sometimes only make a couple attempts to put the fight on the ground and then give up and let the fight stay standing? Is it that difficult?

Some examples...

Arlovski beat Tim in their first fight by ankle lock.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Couture beat Chuck in their first fight by ground and pound.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Horn beat Chuck in their first fight by triangle
Yet for the next fight he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.

Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.



Ex. 2 Liddell has a legendary sprawl and the amazing ability to stand up quickly after being taken down. Randy simply had trouble getting Chuck on to the ground and pounding him out. Also, Couture was going through some personal issues at the time so that may have affected his performance.



Another thing that I believe factored(word?) in Chucks win in the second and third fight was his incredibly improved footwork. Rogan has mentioned this many times and for me it has always been hard to see how Chuck has evolved as a fighter but that particular aspect is so obvious. Since his last loss he cuts off angles like nobody in the UFC and gives wrestlers a hard time closing the distance without getting punished.
MMA
3/14/07 11:21:50PM
Yeah, Chuck has good positioning and timing. He hits you from odd angles and he knows when to pick his shots.

I also forgot to mention that Liddell capitalized on Couture's slip for one of the wins. I cannot remember if it was the rematch or the rubber match, I think it was the former.
migo
3/15/07 6:13:52AM

Posted by Mayo

Why do ground style fighters sometimes only make a couple attempts to put the fight on the ground and then give up and let the fight stay standing? Is it that difficult?

Some examples...

Arlovski beat Tim in their first fight by ankle lock.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.



He dropped Sylvia with cross and followed down, he dropped him in the second fight but Sylvia got up and then KOed him. In the 3rd fight he broke his knee in the second round and couldn't shoot after that.



Couture beat Chuck in their first fight by ground and pound.
Yet for the other two fights he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.



In the second fight he got thumbed in the eye and came in wild after that and got KOed. In the third fight he worked for a good minute in the first round to get Chuck down but couldn't fully do it.



Horn beat Chuck in their first fight by triangle
Yet for the next fight he didn't try much to put the fight on the ground.



Horn has absolutely no chance of getting Chuck down if Chuck is fresh. Horn's strategy was to tire Chuck out and go for a takedown in round 4 or 5. It was working all right and he was likely ahead on the judges scorecards in round 3 but got finished in round 4. Chuck was the better fighter.



Hughes beat GSP in their first fight by armlock.
Yet for the next fight he only made a couple attempts to put GSP on the ground.



And GSP did the splits in mid air and posted on his arm to stop the takedown attempts. That was pretty insane. Even if Hughes had focused on the takedown he wouldn't have got it. He did have a bad strategy going in though.
migo
3/15/07 6:15:21AM

Posted by MMA

Yeah, Chuck has good positioning and timing. He hits you from odd angles and he knows when to pick his shots.

I also forgot to mention that Liddell capitalized on Couture's slip for one of the wins. I cannot remember if it was the rematch or the rubber match, I think it was the former.



It was the rubber match.
Mayo
3/15/07 12:23:40PM
So I guess the next question would be...

Would a new fighter training for MMA be smartest to focus primarily on kickboxing and takedown defenses?

Is a good ground game becoming irrelevant?
Rich78
3/15/07 12:36:10PM
MASSIVE GENERALISATION I know but isn't generally considered to be better off starting with a good ground game or wrestling background as it would then be easier to learn strikes than to be a standup fighter who then would have to learn submissions, sub defence etc. I may well be wrong, but thats what I'm led to believe. Altho that said, looking at Chuck, CroCop etc. I'm doubting myself now!!!
AchillesHeel
3/15/07 1:44:12PM

Posted by Mayo

So I guess the next question would be...

Would a new fighter training for MMA be smartest to focus primarily on kickboxing and takedown defenses?

Is a good ground game becoming irrelevant?


I don't think it's becoming irrelevant, no. "Sprawl n' brawl" is one approach, and a number of successful guys are employing it right now. Of course, I bet Joe Riggs, Heath Herring and Takanori Gomi each wish they had a better ground game after their last fight. A new fighter training in MMA needs to train in all aspects of the sport. Knowingly slacking off on anything would be setting yourself up to lose, I would think.
zephead
3/15/07 4:56:17PM
Sorry migo, but Horn was not ahead on any of the judges cards in any rounds vs. Chuck in their second fight. Chuck dropped him in every round. Horn did nothing up to the point that he verbally submitted.
Stickan
3/15/07 5:18:22PM

Posted by Mayo

So I guess the next question would be...

Would a new fighter training for MMA be smartest to focus primarily on kickboxing and takedown defenses?

Is a good ground game becoming irrelevant?



Fedor, Couture, Sherk, Hughes, Filho, Arona etc. say no.
migo
3/16/07 12:10:33AM

Posted by zephead

Sorry migo, but Horn was not ahead on any of the judges cards in any rounds vs. Chuck in their second fight. Chuck dropped him in every round. Horn did nothing up to the point that he verbally submitted.



Chuck didn't drop him in round 3 at all.
Mayo
3/16/07 12:47:02PM

Posted by Stickan


Posted by Mayo

So I guess the next question would be...

Would a new fighter training for MMA be smartest to focus primarily on kickboxing and takedown defenses?

Is a good ground game becoming irrelevant?



Fedor, Couture, Sherk, Hughes, Filho, Arona etc. say no.



Couture's ground game didn't help him any with Chuck. It only helped him with Tim because Tim is sloppy. It won't help him with CC.

Hughes ground game didn't help him any with GSP and it won't in a rematch.

Fedor's ground game didn't help him any with CC.
migo
3/16/07 2:38:40PM
Couture's ground game definitely helped him with Chuck. In fact Rampage's ground game helped him with Chuck as well.

Fedor's ground game helped him against Randleman, Nogueira, Herring, Schilt, Kohsaka, Coleman...

Randleman's ground game helped him against Cro Cop.

Nogueira's ground game helped him against Cro Cop.

Hughes' ground game helped him against BJ. It will help him against GSP if he can get the fight to the ground, low likelihood but still possible.
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