gracie quit?

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jocksmall
2/18/07 3:36:55PM
i have heard alot of poeple saying renzo found a easy way out and he took it. i didnt see it that way he was never hurt at all before the incident and things were going his way. i saw him let his arm get broke without tapping . i believe he deserves the benifit of the doubt on this one .
nate22
2/18/07 3:46:48PM
The people who said this were probably idiots, trolls or have very little idea about the history of Renzo Gracie.
Stickan
2/18/07 6:40:56PM
Just for the record. I do think those who compare this situation to him not tapping vs Sakuraba are pretty stupid. The possible outcome of him not tapping vs Saku = He tried to fight through and perhaps win the fight later on. The possible outcome of him quitting after getting illegaly stricken by his opponent = A fat win bonus.

I don't think he quit, I think he felt really bad and really got a concussion but this comparison that everybodys making is just stupid.
Svartorm
2/18/07 7:25:58PM
I'm sure he was hurt, but I doubt the concussion. A hospital doesn't discharge you after three hours (that includes waiting room time) for a concussion. I think he got KO'ed by the knees and didn't want to go back into a fight without all his wits, so took the DQ win.
JimiMak
2/18/07 11:40:24PM

Posted by Svartorm

I'm sure he was hurt, but I doubt the concussion. A hospital doesn't discharge you after three hours (that includes waiting room time) for a concussion. I think he got KO'ed by the knees and didn't want to go back into a fight without all his wits, so took the DQ win.



Sorry but you seem to contadict yourself. 1st (which you admit to) Any KO is usually at least a slight concussion. Why would you get back into a fight when you've been (more or less) KO'd once already. While you might have you're wits kinda back you're not the same. 2nd I'm sure they get taken in an ambulence from the fight to the hospital, ppl in ambulences get seen quicker than ppl that just go into the ER. 3rd A concussion isn't really that big a deal, or that serious an injury, once seen it would be a pritty quick assessment in the hospital. I didn't spend that long in an ER w/ a slight concussion (small accident, my hit in the head was prob'ly similar to what one punch from a HVY champ would do).
Svartorm
2/18/07 11:59:04PM

Posted by JimiMak


Posted by Svartorm

I'm sure he was hurt, but I doubt the concussion. A hospital doesn't discharge you after three hours (that includes waiting room time) for a concussion. I think he got KO'ed by the knees and didn't want to go back into a fight without all his wits, so took the DQ win.



Sorry but you seem to contadict yourself. 1st (which you admit to) Any KO is usually at least a slight concussion. Why would you get back into a fight when you've been (more or less) KO'd once already. While you might have you're wits kinda back you're not the same. 2nd I'm sure they get taken in an ambulence from the fight to the hospital, ppl in ambulences get seen quicker than ppl that just go into the ER. 3rd A concussion isn't really that big a deal, or that serious an injury, once seen it would be a pritty quick assessment in the hospital. I didn't spend that long in an ER w/ a slight concussion (small accident, my hit in the head was prob'ly similar to what one punch from a HVY champ would do).



Incorrect on a few points.

1. KOs are rarely concussions. There are many ways to KO someone, and not all include brain damage. A concussion occurs when your brain strikes the inside of your skull. Most KOs in fighting are flash knockouts and have nothing to do with concussions. Granted, there are KOs that more than likely involved a concussion, like Sylvia vs. Telligman, Evans vs. Salmon, and definitely Tank vs. Nelmark.

2. No one said he went to the ER. Just because you're in an ambulance doesn't mean you're going to the ER, especially for something like a concussion. He probably got in quicker than if he'd just walked into the hospital, but hospitals operate on priorties and a dude walking, laughing and joking like Renzo isn't going to be seen for some time. Guarenteed he waited at least an hour before anyone bothered with him.

3. Yes, a concussion is a very big deal. Its brain damage, and they accumulate as well. I'm not on the up and up with pro-sports, but I'm pretty sure in football if you get a certain number of concussions, you're not allowed to play anymore. Not sure what that number is though. Standard proceeder for a concussion is to keep the person overnight for observation, because theres the potential of a brain bleed and you could die in your sleep from one. Granted, Renzo could have discharged himself against doctors orders, or they could have just sent him home because he wasn't that hurt.
JimiMak
2/19/07 12:26:17AM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by JimiMak


Posted by Svartorm

I'm sure he was hurt, but I doubt the concussion. A hospital doesn't discharge you after three hours (that includes waiting room time) for a concussion. I think he got KO'ed by the knees and didn't want to go back into a fight without all his wits, so took the DQ win.



Sorry but you seem to contadict yourself. 1st (which you admit to) Any KO is usually at least a slight concussion. Why would you get back into a fight when you've been (more or less) KO'd once already. While you might have you're wits kinda back you're not the same. 2nd I'm sure they get taken in an ambulence from the fight to the hospital, ppl in ambulences get seen quicker than ppl that just go into the ER. 3rd A concussion isn't really that big a deal, or that serious an injury, once seen it would be a pritty quick assessment in the hospital. I didn't spend that long in an ER w/ a slight concussion (small accident, my hit in the head was prob'ly similar to what one punch from a HVY champ would do).



Incorrect on a few points.

1. KOs are rarely concussions. There are many ways to KO someone, and not all include brain damage. A concussion occurs when your brain strikes the inside of your skull. Most KOs in fighting are flash knockouts and have nothing to do with concussions. Granted, there are KOs that more than likely involved a concussion, like Sylvia vs. Telligman, Evans vs. Salmon, and definitely Tank vs. Nelmark.



2. No one said he went to the ER. Just because you're in an ambulance doesn't mean you're going to the ER, especially for something like a concussion. He probably got in quicker than if he'd just walked into the hospital, but hospitals operate on priorties and a dude walking, laughing and joking like Renzo isn't going to be seen for some time. Guarenteed he waited at least an hour before anyone bothered with him.

3. Yes, a concussion is a very big deal. Its brain damage, and they accumulate as well. I'm not on the up and up with pro-sports, but I'm pretty sure in football if you get a certain number of concussions, you're not allowed to play anymore. Not sure what that number is though. Standard proceeder for a concussion is to keep the person overnight for observation, because theres the potential of a brain bleed and you could die in your sleep from one. Granted, Renzo could have discharged himself against doctors orders, or they could have just sent him home because he wasn't that hurt.



1. KO's are usually the snap of the skull and neck fast enough so the brain doesn't keep up. Slight concussion. The EXACT reason that the NSAC has a mandatory suspension after any KO/TKO (re: Erin Toughill's recent trouble). The major KO's you mentioned are severe brain damage type concussions where there is a lot of worry for one's safety for 48 hours. You seem to think that only severe brain damaging concussions are the only concussions.

Most, as you call them flash ko's are exactly that. Instead of losing cousciousness for a prolonged period of time you get your brain rocked really hard for just a minute. You can see it in the eyes immediately. Which is a lot of why fights get called "early", is the look in the eyes.


2. I, personally, have never heard of going in to the hospital in an ambulance and not going straight into ER for assessment. Just my personal experience, but someone coming off an ambulence like that wouldn't get priority over a heart attack, but over most broken limbs, etc that ppl walk into the ER w/ you get seen 1st.

3. Concussions vary on there degree of severity. I won't talk about the foofball referece because I have no idea. A severe concussion that a doctor really feels like there might be complications gets a night over. Most "small" hits in the head from car accidents / fights / falls get a look at the eyes and things and if you're pretty coherent and have ppl to keep an eye on you, you get released.

Again, just my experience, but I think you are thinking someone has to get f****** up just to get a small concussion.
Svartorm
2/19/07 1:04:02AM
To my knowledge, a flash KO isn't a concussion, but an MTBI, which is a very low grade of concussion. I'm pretty sure there are fire or six grades of concussion, and a flast KO is the bottom rung, and the different grades have to do with how long the dude was unconcious. The injury that was claimed during that fight wasn't a small concussion, but a severe concussion because they said he was vomiting in his dressing room after the fight.

I have two good friends that are paramedics, one of which I was watching the fight with, so I know an ambulance ride doesn't automatically get you in ahead of people in the ER. People call ambulances for all kinds of non-emergencies and if the person wants to go to the hospital, the ambulance crews are required to take them there. If Renzo was out cold, I'm sure he'd get into the ER immediately, but theres no way someone walking around and laughing like he was would be rushed in ahead of heart attacks, gunshot wounds, and the like.

I'm not saying Renzo wasn't hurt, but I don't believe for a second he has a serious concussion like they were claiming.

Also, I'm pretty sure the NSAC has different rules for MMA and boxing/kickboxing because you're allowed to continue in both sports after a flash KO, provided you can gain your feet. It doesn't mean you get a worse concussion in MMA than in another sport, but I think they just use extra caution in the MMA world because its a newer sport.
nate22
2/19/07 5:44:28AM
Props to both of you guys for making a not so interesting thread, interesting. So refreshing to see two guys battle it out with intelligence without resorting to petty insults as soon as there is a difference in opinion. Alot of stuff I wasn't aware of or had no idea about also, so thanks alot for the read guys.
Trapt1nw0nder
2/19/07 6:48:44AM
cant believe all this typing battling back and fourth...

its simple......Frank knee'd Renzo to the back of the head,concussion or not it was not fair for him to continue fighting...


------------END OF THREAD-------------
Svartorm
2/19/07 10:27:11AM

Posted by nate22

Props to both of you guys for making a not so interesting thread, interesting. So refreshing to see two guys battle it out with intelligence without resorting to petty insults as soon as there is a difference in opinion. Alot of stuff I wasn't aware of or had no idea about also, so thanks alot for the read guys.



I was thinking of calling him a "n00b TUFer LOL" but I wanted to save the big guns for later.
JimiMak
2/19/07 6:58:00PM
You actually made the point I was trying to about the different grades, it's still a minor concussion. Obviously he wouldn't go ahead of gunshots, I never said he would. I don't know much about mississippi, but would imagine that they don't have the er flow of say Vegas- but who knows. I hadn't heard they were claiming it was so severe, I thought it wasn't that bad in the scheme of things myself.

"...its simple......Frank knee'd Renzo to the back of the head,
concussion or not it was not fair for him to continue fighting..."

That's definitily the simplified version, doesn't mean we can't examine the finer points. That's what forums are for, right?

and thanx on the props.
madmarck
2/20/07 4:08:35PM

Posted by nate22

The people who said this were probably idiots, trolls or have very little idea about the history of Renzo Gracie.


What? Cant you see how Frank Kneeing him illegally in the back of the head was Renzo easy way out. I Mean His eyes should have been working right. Not being able to see shouldnt have affected his ability to fight.
If you dont see the humour you are a Frank Shamrock fan.

Not to mention. Why would Renzo take the easy way out. He was easily winning that fight. (**** those judges). Before we could see the scorecards one would assume that Renzo was ahead. Why simply give up when you are dominatining a fight??????? IT doesnt work. Renzo didnt give up. He just couldnt recover.

You dont call a fighter who gets a nasty nasty groin kick and cant continue a quitter do you?
SICKRICK
2/26/07 10:53:55AM
renzo would have won anyway
thatfedorsohotrightnow
2/27/07 6:01:10PM
NFl has no set number in regard to concussions and ones playing status. In fact football is notorious for under reporting these injuries. It is a dirty little secret. To the guy that said a flash ko is not a concussion: WRONG-!! It most certainly is a concussion.
jdubs
3/2/07 2:27:14AM
dude quit, he took some shots to the kidneys and he was done... no question about it ..
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