Gonzaga put in his place?

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sakurabaforever
8/26/07 6:57:47AM
Now that Couture has shocked the world again (knowledgable fans knew he would win, but in the 3rd round!?), and proven then GG/Sylvia are not top 10, are people still going to rank GG at 3

It's clear as day now (and should have been before), GG got a fluke win over an unmotivated CC, nothing more. He shouldn't just jump into the top 10 because of it (if that's the case, Randleman should be ranked above CC too...and then you get a real mess of things).

I said it before, the HW division is not as strong as everyone believes. It's hard to rank the champion in top 10 since he has not beaten anyone in the top 10 in many years (unless you give him bonus points for beating top 20s since he's 44).
cmill21
8/26/07 7:12:51AM
lol your a Mirko nuthugger to, according to ppl on this forum. I really don't think gg is top 10, he was annihalated. If Mirko came to fight he would have demolished him to. I'm glad that bandwagon can crash and burn, and I don't have to hear the gg would give fedor a run.
sakurabaforever
8/26/07 7:21:25AM
Yeah, that was completely ridiculous. I don't get how so many GG fans could come out of the woodwork after one fight. No one was talking about him before...or is it that everyone hates Mirko so much?
cmill21
8/26/07 7:26:43AM
People don't like him because he's not "personable". I don't like how everyone expects everyone to be randy. Mirko does interview in Croatia all the time. As for the gg fans, if you like someone then like them win lose or draw, he's obviously a skilled fighter if he made it to the UFC, but the way Joe and Mike were talking it's like people thought he was Mirko and going to walk in there and KO randy like he was Mirko. GG is a BJJ black belt, he should have used it, and not got it in his head that he's an elite striker, he's not, you saw him land a head kick on randy, and it had no where near the power behind it that it did that fateful night, he'll never do it again, it was a fluke, he should stick to BJJ.
Stickan
8/26/07 7:41:24AM
Mirko is clearly still one of the most popular fighters in the world. Just look at the fan favorite rankings for example.

I gotta go now but I answered your post cmill in the Couture thread in the spoiler forums. I'll probably answer why I don't think Gonzaga┬┤s win over Mirko was a fluke later in this thread.
nickcuc547
8/26/07 9:17:02AM
its good to hear that you are a "knowledgable" mma fan because you correctly predicted the gonzaga couture fight. i fell into the hype and i admit i was wrong, but i dont know how you can say gg's win over cro cop was a fluke when he got dominated, we arent talking about a one punch ko like what happened with randelman so your comparison is wrong. gg embarrassed cro cop, and i figured he would be just as dominant against couture who was a weaker opponent. i think randy exposed gg for his heart and his chin, gg quit in the third, couture could not get him down and he kind of let him take him down in the third, and once randy hit him with a nice shot in the opening minute gg was tenative. i think its natural for people to fall into the guy's hype after he dismantled one of the sports best, just because we were wrong doesnt make us unknowledgable mma fans.
mrsmiley
8/26/07 9:36:05AM
I have to admitt,did you guys watch Couture walking to the octagon?
He looked very nervous and scared.I think he was ready for the fight but damn he was looking worried.I wanted Couture to win the fight badly and i'm glad he did because I thought Gonzaga was going to take the fight.If CC takes out Konga,then he should get his rematch.

I don't think Gonzaga beat CC on a fluke though.He was showing some skill and came in with a perfect game plan.I wouldn't dare call him a flash in the pan.
sadface
8/26/07 9:40:55AM
Ya, i totally disagree with Gonzaga's win being a "lucky" headkick. Sure the kick came out of nowhere, but Gabe was dominating CroCop for entire fight. He had Mirko on the mat, taking elbows and punches to the face.

I never through Gonzaga was a top 5 Heavy Weight even after he beat CroCop. But, those two were fighting for the title shot so you have to give Gabe his due. He'll have to prove himself for sure in his next fight, as long as they don't Gonzaga up with a total can.
ac_gi
8/26/07 10:22:20AM

Posted by mrsmiley

I have to admitt,did you guys watch Couture walking to the octagon?
He looked very nervous and scared.I think he was ready for the fight but damn he was looking worried.I wanted Couture to win the fight badly and i'm glad he did because I thought Gonzaga was going to take the fight.If CC takes out Konga,then he should get his rematch.

I don't think Gonzaga beat CC on a fluke though.He was showing some skill and came in with a perfect game plan.I wouldn't dare call him a flash in the pan.


Nervous? Really? I thought he looked very relaxed, smiling and acknowledging the fans as he walked to the cage. The people at my party commented on how calm he looked.
Nacho
8/26/07 11:42:37AM
It is really easy to call to Gonzaga a fluke now, but I think he will be back. I thought Randy would win, because even at 44, he is better than ever. He smashed Gonzaga's nose with that take down. He also ate a head kick and demoralized Gonzaga when he shook it off like nothing. No BJJ was seen in the fight. Randy just showed that his win over Silvia was no fluke and it is going to take a lot to take his belt away.
KissMyBallz
8/26/07 12:34:22PM
Considering that most of the fight GG couldnt see because of a busted up nose and he was one more good solid punch from KOing Randy?

No he's not put in his p lace. He lost due to beat d own. Plain and simple. He's a big tough guy that would give any heavyweight a problem.

If anything, we should all be talking about how much Randy's boxing has improved. I mean he got tagged pretty good AND kicked in the head once by GG, but he still kept his wits about him and moved his head really well the whole fight and did what he had to do.

Good fight all around by both guys IMO.
Fanboy 1988
8/26/07 12:36:32PM

Posted by sadface

Ya, i totally disagree with Gonzaga's win being a "lucky" headkick. Sure the kick came out of nowhere, but Gabe was dominating CroCop for entire fight. He had Mirko on the mat, taking elbows and punches to the face.

I never through Gonzaga was a top 5 Heavy Weight even after he beat CroCop. But, those two were fighting for the title shot so you have to give Gabe his due. He'll have to prove himself for sure in his next fight, as long as they don't Gonzaga up with a total can.



sakurabaforever
8/26/07 1:15:23PM

Posted by nickcuc547

we arent talking about a one punch ko like what happened with randelman so your comparison is wrong.



What fight were you watching? Randleman outsmarted a CC at the top of his game. He is so explosive, he faked a takedown, CC started to sprawl and got caught by a bomb WHICH DID NOT KNOCK HIM OUT!!!! CC's chin is among the best to not have been KOd by that. It did drop him though, and then Randleman hammerfisted his way to the KO.

In the rematch CC outsmarted Randleman, CC via guillotine submission , I bet NO ONE CALLED that one. He's 1-1 with CC and he may actually be the better fighter (when he comes to fight). Randleman is also the closest to not only beat Fedor, but actually KILL/PARALYZE him. He deserves his dues.

Randleman faced a serious CC. GG faced a guy who didn't feel like fighting and was there to just cash a paycheck. Damn there are a lot of people who either haven't seen Mirko fight in Pride or are just dumb. Does anyone think that GG beat the same CC that fought in the OWGP? Seriously...a guy that gets TKOd by a smaller JJ fighter will get annihilated by an elite K1 striker (when he actually feels like fighting).

You seem like a cool guy, I'm sorry if you thought I meant all those who picked Gonzaga unknowledgable, I meant those who thought Gonzaga was going to destroy Couture easily were unknowledgabe. It was a hard fight to call.
nickcuc547
8/26/07 2:09:00PM

Posted by sakurabaforever


Posted by nickcuc547

we arent talking about a one punch ko like what happened with randelman so your comparison is wrong.



What fight were you watching? Randleman outsmarted a CC at the top of his game. He is so explosive, he faked a takedown, CC started to sprawl and got caught by a bomb WHICH DID NOT KNOCK HIM OUT!!!! CC's chin is among the best to not have been KOd by that. It did drop him though, and then Randleman hammerfisted his way to the KO.

In the rematch CC outsmarted Randleman, CC via guillotine submission , I bet NO ONE CALLED that one. He's 1-1 with CC and he may actually be the better fighter (when he comes to fight). Randleman is also the closest to not only beat Fedor, but actually KILL/PARALYZE him. He deserves his dues.

Randleman faced a serious CC. GG faced a guy who didn't feel like fighting and was there to just cash a paycheck. Damn there are a lot of people who either haven't seen Mirko fight in Pride or are just dumb. Does anyone think that GG beat the same CC that fought in the OWGP? Seriously...a guy that gets TKOd by a smaller JJ fighter will get annihilated by an elite K1 striker (when he actually feels like fighting).

You seem like a cool guy, I'm sorry if you thought I meant all those who picked Gonzaga unknowledgable, I meant those who thought Gonzaga was going to destroy Couture easily were unknowledgabe. It was a hard fight to call.




i just thought that cro cops loss to randleman and to gonzaga were completely different and were not really comparable. you are correct randleman did fake the take down, but i was pointing more to him being dropped rather than dismantled the entire fight like gonzaga did.

and i must say i dont know what was going on with cc against gonzaga, he was taken down so quickly that you could not tell if he was serious or not.

i admit that i fell into gonzagas hype after that cro cop fight because i know he is the top heavyweight striker, i think we need to see gonzaga fight a couple of more top guys before we know how good or mediocre he really is. he looked unstoppable against cc and lackluster against randy, i would love to see him get the winner or loser of vera sylvia, then we will see just how good he is.

but i respect your opinion, your posts are very good reads, i just disagree with you on this one.
cmill21
8/26/07 3:53:48PM
Mirko didn't train for the elbows or the octagon, his circling was predictable for a reason, he didn't know how to cut off the octagon, so he circled like he was in the ring, leaving allooot of room for gg. Had gg won on the ground I woulden't say he won by fluke, but since he threw out the sloppiest kick i've seen in a while and did what he did I consider it a fluke, he threw a kick at randy, coulden't muster half of what he did that night to Mirko, a fluke is something you'll never repeat, Mirko would kill him in a rematch, and gg won't land a kick like he did for the rest of his life. He lost tonight not because of his broken nose, but because he thought he was some sort of KO king. Didn't make a single takedown attempt, and stood there and struck, he showcased how poor his striking is. He hits hard, but he throws slow and he's so innaccurate.
keith-hackney1
8/26/07 4:03:30PM

Dont get confused guys ... Crocop is a striker in an mma sport, GG ko'd CC, which was no fluke, GG will be a future ufc heavyweight champ !!!
sakurabaforever
8/26/07 4:06:30PM

Posted by nickcuc547

and i must say i dont know what was going on with cc against gonzaga, he was taken down so quickly that you could not tell if he was serious or not.




Okay, so you admit that there's a possibility that he was not serious, we are making progress then.

First of all, taking down Mirko is very, very difficult. Olympians could not do it. So the fact that he got taken down so quickly right there shows his mindset. And do you honestly think if Mirko was there to fight he would not throw leg kicks and left straight combinations instead of doing nothing and waiting for GG?

CC was unprepared and GG was .Plain and simple, CC deserved to lose and he did. But it is a fluke. I'm surprised so many people think that was the best Mirko in there. I guess people didn't notice because CC dismantled Sanchez so easily, but that's the difference between Sanchez and GG, where as GG does possess skill (just not top 10 material).
Pitbull09
8/26/07 7:19:53PM
Lol, I PICKED THE 3RD ROUND KO!!!! The better question is has Couture finally been put in his place and will never be an underdog for so much lower fighter like Gonzaga? I hope he is. But Gonzaga is finally out of the picture and has a long way up the ladder if he wants a title shot.
Svartorm
8/26/07 10:17:57PM
For the record, I had GG via 2nd round sub. Heres what I think happened and why it happened.

In his fight with Crocop, GG had a great gameplan, came in with a vengence and implimented it. In his fight last night, he went in with a gameplan, got stuffed trying to impliment it and psychologically came apart. Randy has made his career off of having fantastic gameplans and he had one tonight. The first round was pretty shaky at times, but clearly Randy was fighting the way he wanted to and that, plus the very broken nose, seemed to take all the fight out of GG, which was obvious during the second round when he was being pummeled against the fence.

As for if GG can come back from this, its hard to say. Hes a brute and has the skillset to be a champ someday, but the mental aspects of a fight are much more important than the physical. Hes show weakness in this department before when fighting Kevin Jordan, so hopefully he can become a bit more confident in his abilities and come back with a sharp mind, as well as a sharp body.
k_lup07
8/27/07 12:45:51AM
i thought randy looked like a pimp walking out there, calm as ever. napao will definitely be back, the boys a beast.

not the topic but omg i was cracking up at huerta/ crane
ncordless
8/27/07 1:18:19AM

Posted by sakurabaforever

Now that Couture has shocked the world again (knowledgable fans knew he would win, but in the 3rd round!?), and proven then GG/Sylvia are not top 10, are people still going to rank GG at 3

It's clear as day now (and should have been before), GG got a fluke win over an unmotivated CC, nothing more. He shouldn't just jump into the top 10 because of it (if that's the case, Randleman should be ranked above CC too...and then you get a real mess of things).

I said it before, the HW division is not as strong as everyone believes. It's hard to rank the champion in top 10 since he has not beaten anyone in the top 10 in many years (unless you give him bonus points for beating top 20s since he's 44).



What I can't understand about Cro Cop fans (and I am one) is why they think that discounting GG makes Mirko look better? There was nothing lucky about the pimp-slapping that GG gave Mirko. Mirko came in as he always does, which is with no plan at all except to kick him in the head. GG followed the example set by Fedor and took a body kick to get the takedown. If GG proved positive anything against Couture it's that the LHK is a part of his arsenal, and he used it very effectively against Cro Cop after the uncalled for stand up. About that stand up... do you think they would have stood it up if it was Randy on top?

Randy fought a great fight with the perfect gameplan. He fought GG in the place where he had the advantage. In the clinch, dirty boxing against the cage. GG, for his part, continued to show some good stand-up when he had space. GG was never top 3 IMO and is maybe not top ten now. But he is right in there with Werdum, Vera, Sylvia, Kharitonov, AA, Kongo, Monson, Aleks Emelianko, Fujita, and others in the 2nd tier of th HW division.

As far as the hw division goes... it is as strong as any other. There is a clearly defined no 1, and a group of about 4 serious challengers (Nog, Randy, Barnett, Cro Cop). That's pretty much the case in every weight class.
Playground_Samurai
8/27/07 1:24:03AM
I don't know why one tough loss to a fighter the caliber of a Randy Couture makes you a automatic mma dud, or turns a fan into a fairweather. Too many fighters are being written off after one loss.
Svartorm
8/27/07 1:32:35AM
I never understood that either. I think its a natural reaction to want to be "right" all the time, including with fights, and people who pick fights seem to shun the guy if they lose, as if it made them look bad.

Hell, Don Frye is still my all-time favorite fighter and hes gotten the holy crap kicked out of him plenty of times.
Leland
8/27/07 7:29:58AM

Posted by Svartorm

For the record, I had GG via 2nd round sub. Heres what I think happened and why it happened.

In his fight with Crocop, GG had a great gameplan, came in with a vengence and implimented it. In his fight last night, he went in with a gameplan, got stuffed trying to impliment it and psychologically came apart. Randy has made his career off of having fantastic gameplans and he had one tonight. The first round was pretty shaky at times, but clearly Randy was fighting the way he wanted to and that, plus the very broken nose, seemed to take all the fight out of GG, which was obvious during the second round when he was being pummeled against the fence.

As for if GG can come back from this, its hard to say. Hes a brute and has the skillset to be a champ someday, but the mental aspects of a fight are much more important than the physical. Hes show weakness in this department before when fighting Kevin Jordan, so hopefully he can become a bit more confident in his abilities and come back with a sharp mind, as well as a sharp body.



I honestly think GG didnt need much of a gameplan VS crocop. Some say he had an underdog advantage, which may have been true, but I think alot of fighters that night could have dropped CC without a prob. He was new to a cage, and he is basically just a striker. GG knew if he got him on his back and dropped elbows (which were new as well) it would daze him, and it did. CC even said the elbows made his vision blurry.
Randy on the other hand has years of cage experience, and has more of an all around skillset than crocop. You all should of known Gonzaga couldn't stand up with top 10, even if he is 44 yrs old. It was just the right night and the right time for him VS cro cop. Cro cop was obviously not on his game that night and did not get enough cage practice for his fight with GG, because if you have seen crocop before, you would know he wasnt on par.

All the GG bandwagon deal was making me sick, i'm glad it was derailed
Leland
8/27/07 7:32:04AM

Posted by gspfan

I don't know why one tough loss to a fighter the caliber of a Randy Couture makes you a automatic mma dud, or turns a fan into a fairweather. Too many fighters are being written off after one loss.



Tell me this, how many people liked GG before his win over crocop? I honestly have never heard of him before this.The MMA fanbase is still new and one nice highlight reel can make a fighter good enough to like.
paulhauffe
8/27/07 8:31:08AM
Im impartial to Gonzaga, i dont think he's great, and dont think he's poor. I thought he was unfortunate to be on the end of the accidental headbutt, which certainly cost him the fight, so i dont think he can be criticised too much for his loss. I get the impression he faces a similar situation to Tim Sylvia where he will never be the most popular of fighters, whether he wins or loses!
Mastodon2
8/27/07 8:32:54AM

Posted by gspfan

I don't know why one tough loss to a fighter the caliber of a Randy Couture makes you a automatic mma dud, or turns a fan into a fairweather. Too many fighters are being written off after one loss.



He had no fans before the Cro Cop fight, and after that e got hyped up. Turns out he isnt what everyone thought he was (The man to beat Fedor? please!) and now I wouldnt be surprised if he had very few fans left now. He has been exposed.

At least now the wheels have come off the GG bandwagon, as the bomb that Randy put under the drivers seat goes off, perhaps finally we won't have to hear about how GG is the "Future of MMA" or the "One to beat Fedor". He went in there against Randy, yeah he hit him hard a few times, but his striking just looked cack. If Gonzaga wasnt so strong, he'd have nothing, if he was 20lbs lighter that kind of striking would not fly in the HW division. He even tried for that big, ugly kick that he used against Cro Cop on Randy, albeit he couldnt get the power into it, and Randy just shrugged it off. GG found out that when you fight someone who actually turns up to fight, you can't just expect a flukey finish.

Hopefully now he won't be ranked the #3 HW by some people aswell. What the hell was all that about? One win over a top 10 and suddenly he jumps to number 3? As far as Im concerned, you climb the 10 top from the bottom, you don't win one fight and fly in right at the top, thats just ridiculous.

If there is anything left for Gonzaga now, I would'nt mind seeing him being punished by (a hopefully reinvigorated) Arlovski, and to see Cro Cop terminate him in a rematch would be beautiful.

War Randy, I knew he'd do it. I didnt see it coming in round 3, but I knew he would expose Gonzaga!
TNunley
8/27/07 8:56:44AM

Posted by cmill21

Mirko didn't train for the elbows or the octagon, his circling was predictable for a reason, he didn't know how to cut off the octagon, so he circled like he was in the ring, leaving allooot of room for gg. Had gg won on the ground I woulden't say he won by fluke, but since he threw out the sloppiest kick i've seen in a while and did what he did I consider it a fluke, he threw a kick at randy, coulden't muster half of what he did that night to Mirko, a fluke is something you'll never repeat, Mirko would kill him in a rematch, and gg won't land a kick like he did for the rest of his life. He lost tonight not because of his broken nose, but because he thought he was some sort of KO king. Didn't make a single takedown attempt, and stood there and struck, he showcased how poor his striking is. He hits hard, but he throws slow and he's so innaccurate.



If CC didn't train for elbows or the octagon, then he's obviously not top level material. He was dominated by GG the whole fight, and if he lost because of the Octagon rules then maybe that tells you he was top of Pride, but not of MMA. You're theory about GG beating CC being a fluke IMO does not make sense. He was dominated the whole fight, and got KTFO. If any fighter getting knocked out makes the fight a fluke then MMA as a whole is a fluke. How many times have fighters been knocked out with one punch/kick? Was Chuck Liddell's win over Randy a fluke? What about Sylvia over Arlovski? I use those because Randy and Arlovski both got KO'd by a single strike, then... they lost the rubber match as well. CC may have the ability of being a top level fighter, but as of right now he's not. I didn't watch much of Pride, but it seems to me the only fighter so far who has come from Pride and dominated is Rampage. I'm not trying to take anything from CC, he probably is a great fighter, but it's a whole different ball game now that he's in the UFC and he hasn't done much.

Sure GG lost because of a broken nose, but it was because Randy broke it. GG had no answer for Randy's clinch, and GG's strikes were shaken off by Randy. And as for the takedown attempts,... he didn't have a chance to try and take down Randy. Randy had him against the fence most of the fight feeding him elbows and knuckles.

Also if you're going to talk about GG throwing slow, and being inaccurate, you should realize what that says about CC. I'm open to hearing what you have to say, but IMO I feel that's how it is.
TNunley
8/27/07 9:01:15AM

Posted by paulhauffe

Im impartial to Gonzaga, i dont think he's great, and dont think he's poor. I thought he was unfortunate to be on the end of the accidental headbutt, which certainly cost him the fight, so i dont think he can be criticised too much for his loss. I get the impression he faces a similar situation to Tim Sylvia where he will never be the most popular of fighters, whether he wins or loses!



I agree with most of what you said. GG wasn't in the spotlight until he knocked out CC, but that doesn't prove anything. I know that it was unfortunate that he took the headbutt, and that probably caused the loss to come much quicker, but even before he got his nose busted he was losing.
Lay_N_Pray
8/27/07 12:28:24PM
Lets see here...you said if you are a GG fan you are not knowledgable, but then you say that if you should like someone win, lose, or draw.

GG is a GREAT fighter, and if you dont see that you might be the one who is blind. He knocked out one of the best in the world, he is a world champion in BJJ, he has only lost two fights in his career and both were to very good opponents.

You cant tell me that at his age and with his expierence that he wouldnt be nervous going into a fight for the most coveted belt in the sport against the biggest legend? Please...he lost that fight fair and square, but he deserves and has EARNED the respect to be in the octagon with the best heavyweights in the world.

Why do people have to discredit fighters anyway? If you are in the UFC, you can fight better then 99% of people anyways, period.
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