So who is the GOAT?

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POLL: GOAT
Fedor 9% (3)
Hendo 12% (4)
Jones 0% (0)
Anderson 73% (24)
GSP 6% (2)
Other 0% (0)
ghandikush
5/22/12 3:36:01PM
In MMA there is no doubt that Fedor is the greatest of his generation and Anderson may very well be the greatest of the current generation before Jones can take that honor.

Who to you is the greatest of all time though?

I dont know if I will be flamed to vote Dan Henderson but he has my pick as he has been offing top fighters from the beginning of his career in mid 1990s until his last fight against Shogun. I know no other fighter with such a resume.

I dont like that the TRT issue will be somewhat of an unprovable variable, but what a hell of a resume.

What are your picks?
prophecy033
5/22/12 3:42:55PM
I went with Anderson. The guy STILL hasn't lost in the UFC. I feel tho that Jones will surpass him ad long as he doesn't hit anymore utility poles.
And although Hendo is one of the all-times greats, Anderson submitted him so IMO that ends that debate. GSP has beat the best of the best at his division also but there was that hiccup that was Serra so I can't put him at the top.
Fedor, IMO, is the greatest HW ever at this point. Everyone gives Mir all this credit for beating Big Nog (a lot of that has to so with HOW he did it, impressive) but Fedor DOMINATED him when Big Nog was considered the best on the planet. But since he never fought in the UFC I can't bestow GOAT status on him either
Wallass
5/22/12 3:43:43PM
Anderson Silva hands down however Jon Jones is gaining lots of traction and is right on his heels.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/22/12 3:45:35PM
I'd also argue that Henderson is among the oldest competitors and that's why his streak dates back to the mid-90's.

I think you have to include B.J. Penn in there. I can't believe I'm saying this since I don't really care for him, but there's no denying what he did.

Dude held the UFC title at 2 different weight classes, He's also fought all over the place. He fought at LW, WW, MW, & fought a LHW (he weighed in at 191 & Machida weight 225).

That's pretty damn impressive if I do say so myself. I'm not suggesting he's the GOAT, but someone could make an argument based on some of those things.
prophecy033
5/22/12 3:57:53PM
Speaking of Penn, Couture should be on this also although I do understand there aren't that many slots. He was the first to win Belts in 2 different Weight Classes.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/22/12 4:01:16PM

Posted by Wallass

Anderson Silva hands down however Jon Jones is gaining lots of traction and is right on his heels.



I'm sorry, but Jones isn't on Anderson's heels. Honestly, I think too much stock is being placed in the people he's beaten.

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.

Rashad was an excellent win, but Anderson cleaned out a division and has sustained it through the old Middleweight guard and the new Middleweight guard.

Jones is mopping the floor with the old guard, but I would argue that most of the top talent in that division is on their way out, has peaked, or is old enough that their window is short. Jones needs to hang on to that title through the new breed of LHW that is undoubtedly working their way up through the ranks as we speak.

The UFC's LHW division is sorely lacking talent right now. A lot of their LHW fighters are as good as they are going to be (in-terms of massive growth in different aspects of the sport).

I mean, Lyoto is probably about as good as he is going to be in terms of skills. Jones, on the other hand, is so young that he's barely just begun his training. The UFC needs more fighters like him, Stipe, JDS, Velasquez, Aldo, Barao, etc....that are solid in a lot of areas. They have too many Brandon Vera's and Thiago Silva's; appear to be amazing talents, but have so many holes in their game and they never seem to improve them.

This is why so many people are hyped about Gustafsson. He's young, he has tremendous reach, he has solid stand-up, and after Phil Davis worked him, Davis went and trained with him to learn the wrestling game. That's the kind of fighters the UFC needs at LHW.

Their problem is that they only seem to have 2. If they have more, you certainly wouldn't know it with their match-making. Bader appears to be getting better, but we will see how that pans out.
Pookie
5/22/12 4:17:33PM
Fedor at the moment. Put him in there in his prime against any other candidate and i'd pick him to win.
He could circumvent Jones reach and tag him on the inside, whilst nulling the clinch takedowns.
He could force Anderson to the ground and dominate from guard.
He could punch GSP in the face.

But yeah, Fedor / Anderson. Due to consistency, dominance, and capability.
Pookie
5/22/12 4:20:17PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.




In a world with Perfect Judges you could argue that 4-4 record should be 5-2-1 with 1 loss attributed to staph infection and the draw attributed to a broken collarbone in training camp.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/22/12 4:25:11PM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.




In a world with Perfect Judges you could argue that 4-4 record should be 5-2-1 with 1 loss attributed to staph infection and the draw attributed to a broken collarbone in training camp.



In an even more perfect world you could argue that the same Shogun who won the 2005 Middleweight Grand Prix shouldn't have even gone to decision with Henderson or Machida, but I don't think we will ever know how good Shogun could be due to the fact that his knees won't cooperate. His entire body seems to be against him.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/22/12 4:29:19PM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.




In a world with Perfect Judges you could argue that 4-4 record should be 5-2-1 with 1 loss attributed to staph infection and the draw attributed to a broken collarbone in training camp.



Additionally, you could argue that two of those wins came against over-the-hill fighters who were already a shell of anything they once were. So, he's back to being 3-3 against anyone that's competitive.
Pookie
5/22/12 4:43:51PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.




In a world with Perfect Judges you could argue that 4-4 record should be 5-2-1 with 1 loss attributed to staph infection and the draw attributed to a broken collarbone in training camp.



Additionally, you could argue that two of those wins came against over-the-hill fighters who were already a shell of anything they once were. So, he's back to being 3-3 against anyone that's competitive.



3-2-1*

but if you account for when Shogun was a shell, that goes down to 3-1.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/22/12 4:46:20PM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.




In a world with Perfect Judges you could argue that 4-4 record should be 5-2-1 with 1 loss attributed to staph infection and the draw attributed to a broken collarbone in training camp.



Additionally, you could argue that two of those wins came against over-the-hill fighters who were already a shell of anything they once were. So, he's back to being 3-3 against anyone that's competitive.



3-2-1*

but if you account for when Shogun was a shell, that goes down to 3-1.



So, if I am keeping score correctly, we have the following Shogun Excuses:

1. He was a shell

2. Poor judging

3. He would have won if he hadn't been sick/injured/etc....
Pookie
5/22/12 4:52:30PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Shogun, for all the attention he gets, is 4-4 in the UFC. He's 2-3 in his last 5. Machida is 1-3 in his last 4 and Rampage might not even care about fighting anymore.




In a world with Perfect Judges you could argue that 4-4 record should be 5-2-1 with 1 loss attributed to staph infection and the draw attributed to a broken collarbone in training camp.



Additionally, you could argue that two of those wins came against over-the-hill fighters who were already a shell of anything they once were. So, he's back to being 3-3 against anyone that's competitive.



3-2-1*

but if you account for when Shogun was a shell, that goes down to 3-1.



So, if I am keeping score correctly, we have the following Shogun Excuses:

1. He was a shell

2. Poor judging

3. He would have won if he hadn't been sick/injured/etc....



1. Yes
2. 1 and 3 are the same.
3. His 4-4 record is deceiving.
BlueSkiesBurn
5/22/12 4:57:36PM

Posted by Pookie

1. Yes
2. 1 and 3 are the same.
3. His 4-4 record is deceiving.



1 & 3 aren't the same necessarily. How many times are you gonna say it was an injury that cost Shogun vs. horrid performance.

Was Forrest a bunk loss? Forrest was injured before and during the fight. He had to have surgery after the fight because of the injury.

If we're making excuses, Forrest's wife went into labor before we walked into the cage. I think that's a pretty viable excuse.

He had more time than Jones did to get ready for the title fight so that can't be the one loss.
BossHog
5/22/12 5:13:29PM
Anderson hands down right now BUT there are guys coming up with tons of that could surpass his accomplishments in the future. Jon Jones being the obvious but don't forget about Jose Aldo. If Aldo moves up to LW and keeps smashing he will have a serious argument for GOAT.

Also time will tell, but the way guys like Rory Mac and Weidman have started off their careers is GOAT potential IMO.
Pookie
5/22/12 5:17:30PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie

1. Yes
2. 1 and 3 are the same.
3. His 4-4 record is deceiving.



1 & 3 aren't the same necessarily. How many times are you gonna say it was an injury that cost Shogun vs. horrid performance.

Was Forrest a bunk loss? Forrest was injured before and during the fight. He had to have surgery after the fight because of the injury.

If we're making excuses, Forrest's wife went into labor before we walked into the cage. I think that's a pretty viable excuse.

He had more time than Jones did to get ready for the title fight so that can't be the one loss.



I mean 1 and 3 to mean the same thing. Since they were taken from my quotes, i am the one who can attribute their meanings. His fights as a "shell" were from big injuries. The Injuries and Horrid performances are intertwined, which it gets labeled as is of little importance to me as long as the result is understood. The guy didn't fight up to his potential. It just so happens the potential was in all probability affected by external factors.

Forrest legitimately beat Shogun that night, but the Shogun who showed up that night was clearly nowhere near 100%, and from my own perspective 40-50%. Forrest's injuries weren't nearly as bad as Shogun's. Fighting with a blown ACL & MCL(which i believe i wrongly attributed to staph earlier) is far more of a hindrance than a torn rotator cuff. Most people can't walk with those kind of injuries, i can't in my right mind hold that against Shogun just because he was too foolish/badass/alpha to withdraw from the fight.

I'm not sure i understand the Jones point. But the Jones point was the 1 loss in the 3-1 rebuttal.


I think In the GOAT argument, variables of all kinds are necassary to assess. You can't have a strictly empirical process to crown a #1 result on a concept that is in no means empirical. Greatest of all Time is a Subjective argument. And often times i believe that the injuries of fighters are valid and worth noting. It's those kind of things that keep you from being shocked when Nog beats up Mir from range in the second fight, when in the first fight he was outstruck from that same area.
george112
5/22/12 5:27:19PM
Fedor.

Easy.

Look at record.


Quality is top notch. Whenever is irrelevant.

Hendo has just as much quality not enough wins to be GOAT.

Anderson has a streak that's it. Some quality but definitely not enough compared to Hendo and Fedor
cowcatcher
5/22/12 5:35:19PM
As of right now I think I'd put Anderson on top, followed by Fedor, then Hendo.

I'm glad Hendo is in the discussion. Once you start going down the list of guys he's fought it's a who's who of MMA, just an incredible list of opponents and he's given each of them a fight win or lose.

Fedor was the best of his time, but everybody gets old, everybody loses in this sport, and I really hope his reputation isn't tarnished by the newer fans that never got to see how great he was in his prime. It's one thing to watch the fights on youtube, it's another to see it happen live and I think when you see it live without knowing who will win it gives you a much better perspective on the fight.

Anderson is undefeated in the UFC, and has looked dominant in every fight except for his first with Sonnen. It's probably time to give him his props, like him or not, as the best fighter ever to compete in the sport. He makes it look easy when he wins, and he has fewer "oh shit he's in trouble" moments than any other champion in the sport ever has. Truly an amazing fighter.
george112
5/22/12 5:45:20PM

Posted by cowcatcher

As of right now I think I'd put Anderson on top, followed by Fedor, then Hendo.

I'm glad Hendo is in the discussion. Once you start going down the list of guys he's fought it's a who's who of MMA, just an incredible list of opponents and he's given each of them a fight win or lose.

Fedor was the best of his time, but everybody gets old, everybody loses in this sport, and I really hope his reputation isn't tarnished by the newer fans that never got to see how great he was in his prime. It's one thing to watch the fights on youtube, it's another to see it happen live and I think when you see it live without knowing who will win it gives you a much better perspective on the fight.

Anderson is undefeated in the UFC, and has looked dominant in every fight except for his first with Sonnen. It's probably time to give him his props, like him or not, as the best fighter ever to compete in the sport. He makes it look easy when he wins, and he has fewer "oh shit he's in trouble" moments than any other champion in the sport ever has. Truly an amazing fighter.



I would agree with you if the question was who is the best at this point in time.

Fedor is like the Michael Jordan of MMA.

Michael got old but is still the GOAT. Even with his years with the Wizards



Seriously the biggest names Anderson has beat is Franklin twice. Griffin. Belfort ( not what he use to be) . Marquardt and Henderson.

Leben is popular. Wouldnt call him a dangerous opponent.

Lutter was actually WINNING. Once again not even top 10

Okami. Just another popular.

Damien. Come on now ....

Cote. Irving.

These dudes are no where near Hendos quality or Fedors


Like I said this dude just has a streak
Budgellism
5/22/12 5:54:35PM
Cowcatcher, Id say the same thing (referring to the first line of your post). Hendo/Penn are fairly close though imo.
cowcatcher
5/22/12 5:58:44PM
He has a streak, but it's in the top MMA organization that's existed to this point so it's worth something.

Fedor has held down the top spot on my personal list for years, but recently I started thinking more and more that it was Andy after discussing it at length with some of my friends. I could come back to this in a week and I might have a different answer. It's such a hard thing to determine, especially when the guys at or near the top are still competing. Give me 10 years, these guys will be long gone, and I'll put together a comprehensive list that everyone will agree with.
george112
5/22/12 6:09:32PM

Posted by cowcatcher

He has a streak, but it's in the top MMA organization that's existed to this point so it's worth something.



Haha what!?

What's that gotta do with quality of opponents.




No disrespect cowcatcher
Budgellism
5/22/12 6:18:06PM

Posted by george112


Posted by cowcatcher

As of right now I think I'd put Anderson on top, followed by Fedor, then Hendo.

I'm glad Hendo is in the discussion. Once you start going down the list of guys he's fought it's a who's who of MMA, just an incredible list of opponents and he's given each of them a fight win or lose.

Fedor was the best of his time, but everybody gets old, everybody loses in this sport, and I really hope his reputation isn't tarnished by the newer fans that never got to see how great he was in his prime. It's one thing to watch the fights on youtube, it's another to see it happen live and I think when you see it live without knowing who will win it gives you a much better perspective on the fight.

Anderson is undefeated in the UFC, and has looked dominant in every fight except for his first with Sonnen. It's probably time to give him his props, like him or not, as the best fighter ever to compete in the sport. He makes it look easy when he wins, and he has fewer "oh shit he's in trouble" moments than any other champion in the sport ever has. Truly an amazing fighter.



I would agree with you if the question was who is the best at this point in time.

Fedor is like the Michael Jordan of MMA.

Michael got old but is still the GOAT. Even with his years with the Wizards



Seriously the biggest names Anderson has beat is Franklin twice. Griffin. Belfort ( not what he use to be) . Marquardt and Henderson.

Leben is popular. Wouldnt call him a dangerous opponent.

Lutter was actually WINNING. Once again not even top 10

Okami. Just another popular.

Damien. Come on now ....

Cote. Irving.

These dudes are no where near Hendos quality or Fedors


Like I said this dude just has a streak



His accomplishments date back further than the ufc. He beat Sakurai when he was considered one of the best fighters on the planet. He also knocked out Newton when he was considered top 10 as well.

The Franklin wins are very big. He's the first fighter to make Franklin look like a child in the cage. Lutter won the first round, sure, but what did Anderson do? He beat Lutter at his own game. Then he went on to be the first to beat marquardt in the ufc, Hendo, who I would argue is top 5 GOAT didn't last 2 full rounds with him. The rest other than the Sonnen fight don't need to be mentioned really.

In the Sonnen fight he fought with an injury and got his ass kicked for 4 and a half rounds only to come back and win the fight with 2 or so minutes to go, showing he could win in the face of adversity and although we like to joke about Sonnen and triangles, he's only been caught in them by elite bjj guys since 2006.

He's the best and has the championship records in the ufc to prove it. Its hard to argue against Silva being GOAT imo.

Also, I would argue Belfort was in his prime during the Silva fight and still is.
grappler0000
5/22/12 6:18:46PM
Alright, somebody list both Anderson's and Fedor's 8 greatest victories. We'll get to the bottom of this if it takes all night.
FastKnockout
5/22/12 6:21:51PM
It has to be Anderson. He's been the longest reigning champion in the history of the UFC with a solid list of opponents which includes trips to Light Heavyweight.
cowcatcher
5/22/12 6:22:23PM

Posted by george112


Posted by cowcatcher

He has a streak, but it's in the top MMA organization that's existed to this point so it's worth something.



Haha what!?

What's that gotta do with quality of opponents.




No disrespect cowcatcher



It has a lot to do with quality of opponents. He's got a streak in the biggest/best MMA org out there, so it's not like he's fighting complete cans. I mean, if they're fighting in the UFC they've got to be pretty good to begin with.

The problem is that he's in a weight class that has always seemed to lack an upper crust of great fighters. There were some good ones, but not a lot that could be considered greats of the sport, whereas LHW and HW have had an abundance of stars and talented fighters over the years.

prophecy033
5/22/12 6:23:03PM

Posted by george112

Like I said this dude just has a streak

except he beat the same Hendo you're saying could be the GOAT. I'd say that puts him ahead of Hendo
george112
5/22/12 6:26:28PM

Posted by Budgellism


Posted by george112


Posted by cowcatcher

As of right now I think I'd put Anderson on top, followed by Fedor, then Hendo.

I'm glad Hendo is in the discussion. Once you start going down the list of guys he's fought it's a who's who of MMA, just an incredible list of opponents and he's given each of them a fight win or lose.

Fedor was the best of his time, but everybody gets old, everybody loses in this sport, and I really hope his reputation isn't tarnished by the newer fans that never got to see how great he was in his prime. It's one thing to watch the fights on youtube, it's another to see it happen live and I think when you see it live without knowing who will win it gives you a much better perspective on the fight.

Anderson is undefeated in the UFC, and has looked dominant in every fight except for his first with Sonnen. It's probably time to give him his props, like him or not, as the best fighter ever to compete in the sport. He makes it look easy when he wins, and he has fewer "oh shit he's in trouble" moments than any other champion in the sport ever has. Truly an amazing fighter.



I would agree with you if the question was who is the best at this point in time.

Fedor is like the Michael Jordan of MMA.

Michael got old but is still the GOAT. Even with his years with the Wizards



Seriously the biggest names Anderson has beat is Franklin twice. Griffin. Belfort ( not what he use to be) . Marquardt and Henderson.

Leben is popular. Wouldnt call him a dangerous opponent.

Lutter was actually WINNING. Once again not even top 10

Okami. Just another popular.

Damien. Come on now ....

Cote. Irving.

These dudes are no where near Hendos quality or Fedors


Like I said this dude just has a streak



His accomplishments date back further than the ufc. He beat Sakurai when he was considered one of the best fighters on the planet. He also knocked out Newton when he was considered top 10 as well.

The Franklin wins are very big. He's the first fighter to make Franklin look like a child in the cage. Lutter won the first round, sure, but what did Anderson do? He beat Lutter at his own game. Then he went on to be the first to beat marquardt in the ufc, Hendo, who I would argue is top 5 GOAT didn't last 2 full rounds with him. The rest other than the Sonnen fight don't need to be mentioned really.

In the Sonnen fight he fought with an injury and got his ass kicked for 4 and a half rounds only to come back and win the fight with 2 or so minutes to go, showing he could win in the face of adversity and although we like to joke about Sonnen and triangles, he's only been caught in them by elite bjj guys since 2006.

He's the best and has the championship records in the ufc to prove it. Its hard to argue against Silva being GOAT imo.

Also, I would argue Belfort was in his prime during the Silva fight and still is.



And Fedors don't???

You forgot to mention this guy lost by flying heel hook during the same time he knocked out newton.
cowcatcher
5/22/12 6:26:34PM

Posted by prophecy033


Posted by george112

Like I said this dude just has a streak

except he beat the same Hendo you're saying could be the GOAT. I'd say that puts him ahead of Hendo



We differ there. Hendo beat Fedor, but I wouldn't put him ahead of him just yet. Now if Hendo shocks the world and beats Bones, I'll probably have to do some retooling on my GOAT list.
prophecy033
5/22/12 6:27:18PM
Fedor was
Anderson is
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