Georges St-Pierre - "I Want To Fight the Best and Jake Shields Is the Best Right Now"

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jae_1833
4/24/10 12:30:10AM
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"As a proud champion, I want to fight the best and Jake Shields is the best right now."
runningman08
4/24/10 12:42:22AM
Good to see GSP welcomes all opponents but i want to see shields have a warm up fight first because fighting in the UFC is totally different. The competition is much more deep. I know he just beat Hendo but i still have to see how he does against guys like Kos, Fitch and Alves. If he goes through one of those guys then i welcome the GSP fight. Good thing about shields is he can jump classes and fight a number of guys so if 170 doesn't work out then he can fight at 185 where he has beaten many great opponents.
TheGodfather1024
4/24/10 12:42:25AM
Just because Shields beat Henderson (IMO had a lack luster performance) he is the best?? I think Alves, Kos, Fitch, Thiago would beat him. I think if Shields and Daley fought again Daley would win. AND if Anthony Johnson could learn take down defense he would beat Shields as well. (MW he would also have a lot of problems in the UFC).
Twenty20Dollars
4/24/10 12:52:57AM
I think shields vs gsp would be like gsp vs fitch only I dont think gsp would batter the face of shields that badly.

Like I said in another thread, I wouldnt mind seeing Fitch vs Shields, whether fitch wins or loses against alves.
jae_1833
4/24/10 12:53:57AM
I hear you all, but with all this talk about respect from Dana how messed up would it be for the UFC not to give Shields a shot at GSP, after GSP calls HIM out?!!
TOMMYAYO05
4/24/10 6:37:36AM
hes the best.....anderson who????oh yeah thats right.....welterweights kos,fitch,alves theyd all take shields.kos and fitch would out wrestle him.
State_Champ
4/24/10 9:30:17AM
Over the past 5 ½ years, [Jake Shields] has emerged victorious all fourteen times he’s entered the ring and hasn’t been finished by an opponent in more than a decade. That span includes wins over former WEC champion Carlos Condit and Yushin Okami on the same night, current UFC welterweight contender Paul Daley, and a string of highly respectable middleweights in Strikeforce including of course Henderson. Those accomplishments can’t be dismissed when weighed against his peers. Let’s not forget it was three years ago when GSP stumbled on his ascension to current greatness, meaning Shields has nearly doubled that time period without incurring a loss and gone more than three times as long without tasting TKO (all three of his other career defeats have come via decision). For added perspective, the one and only time the Strikeforce Middleweight Champion was rendered unable to continue came a little less than two years before St. Pierre even made his professional debut.

The Gracie trained Californian has some of the best ground control and submission grappling in the sport. His striking.... needs improvement, but he has the ability to smother opponents while weathering whatever storm blows his way in the process, so it’s a trait he can work on while compensating for the vanilla stand-up with his other talents. He’s known for being somewhat of a wet blanket in the ring because of his wrestling prowess, but it’s worth considering that he’s finished eight of his last ten adversaries so he may be on his way towards shaking that perception. - Brendhan Conlan

IDK if Jake is the best but he certainly isn't terrible and I think he's qualified for a title shot against GSP.
AchillesHeel
4/24/10 10:27:52AM

Posted by TheGodfather1024

Just because Shields beat Henderson (IMO had a lack luster performance) he is the best?? I think Alves, Kos, Fitch, Thiago would beat him. I think if Shields and Daley fought again Daley would win. AND if Anthony Johnson could learn take down defense he would beat Shields as well. (MW he would also have a lot of problems in the UFC).


I agree that Hendo didn't look himself, but to be fair I don't think he's ever fought a wrestler of Shields' quality (in his MMA career, that is).

Even before the Hendo match, though, I think it was clear that Shields was fighting opponents who were well below his level. He's a superb grappler, full stop. People criticize him for his "boring" decision wins over Henderson and Mayhem Miller, but those people have short memories (or they just don't know MMA very well) because before that, Shields ran through 8 guys like a hot knife through butter. Paul Daley was one of those guys, by the way, who distinguished himself by making it into the 2nd round with Shields. Not-quite-UFC-caliber fighters Robbie Lawler, Nick Thompson, Mike Pyle and Renato Verissimo got folded up like lawn chairs, and Ido Pariente and Steve Steinbeiss had about as much business being in there with Shields as I would.

The question isn't whether Shields should be in the UFC, the question is whether he should have been in the UFC three years ago or four.

Alves, Kos and Fitch would give Shields a great fight, and good grapplers like Matt Hughes, Matt Serra and Carlos Condit* might give him something to think about. But the UFC's welterweight strikers will have to be extremely careful, and I doubt they'd have more than "a puncher's chance" anyway. I also can't help noticing that nobody around the web has given Shields any credit at all for being able to take a punch from Hendo and stay afloat. Do Kos or Alves hit harder than Henderson? I doubt it, although they're usually more aggressive than Hendo is, which can count for something sometimes (although I don't think Shields is less capable of making an opponent pay for sloppiness than Paulo Thiago or Drew Fickett are - on the contrary, I think he's probably more dangerous).


Posted by State_Champ

Over the past 5 ½ years[...]








* Frankly, I feel kind of stupid calling Hughes, Serra and Condit "good grapplers." In reality, these "B+" pros are better grapplers than anyone most people have ever met. I'm reminded of Nick Hornby's novel "Fever Pitch", in which he describes a former classmate as a "[soccer] god", who subsequently made it as far as the bench of a fourth-division pro team. It's all relative.
Rush
4/24/10 12:05:45PM
Every time I see Jake Shields fight I lose more faith in MMA. I think he is the most overrated fighter right now. In my eyes, he is the most incomplete fighter for someone with his paper record. I don't think I have ever witnessed a fighter in Jake's position take so many clean shots in the face (see Henderson fight) as if he has absolutely no experience in stand up. To me it even borders on the line of suspicion.

I mean, how can a champion have absolutely no striking power and not be able to finish his fights with strikes for the amount of time Jake spends in the mount? And for a guy with such a strong BJJ camp, I can't believe all of his submission opportunities that he passes up from the mount... it's not like he wants to GnP thet guy out (or is at least capable of doing so).

I think the Henderson fight clearly showed that if Jake is up against a good wrestler with some decent striking he is in trouble. The only thing that saved Jake in that fight IMO was the fact that Henderson stamina was low (or he got injured in the fight) because I don't think he would have lasted if Henderson continued the domination into the second round.

I know some people will throw out the comment, "oh well that is MMA and he is finding ways to win fights". The thing is, I can't buy that his wins are as legit as other MMA grinders because there appears to be some fundamental flaws with his skills.

I really feel that Jake will get destroyed against any of the top fighters in the WW (Alves, Fitch, Koscheck, GSP and probably Swick and Johnson) or MW (Anderson, Sonnen, Belfort, Silva, Marquardt or even Franklin) division in the UFC, that have a decent wrestling base and that he'll have success only with fighters that are weak with wrestling (e.g. guys with a BJJ base like Paulo Thiago or Maia).

Anyways, I want him to come to the UFC because I believe he'll be exposed and at this point, in MMA, nothing would make me happier.
AchillesHeel
4/24/10 1:22:50PM

Posted by Rush

Every time I see Jake Shields fight I lose more faith in MMA. I think he is the most overrated fighter right now.


Except for your opening, I agree with everything you wrote.


Posted by Rush

In my eyes, he is the most incomplete fighter for someone with his paper record.


I agree. Of the champions and major contenders in Strikeforce and the UFC, I think he's among the most one-dimensional (I'm undecided about King Mo).


Posted by Rush

I think the Henderson fight clearly showed that if Jake is up against a good wrestler with some decent striking he is in trouble. The only thing that saved Jake in that fight IMO was the fact that Henderson stamina was low (or he got injured in the fight) because I don't think he would have lasted if Henderson continued the domination into the second round.


I agree. I think Shields doesn't get enough credit for surviving the first round, but I doubt he would have survived another round like that.


Posted by Rush

I know some people will throw out the comment, "oh well that is MMA and he is finding ways to win fights". The thing is, I can't buy that his wins are as legit as other MMA grinders because there appears to be some fundamental flaws with his skills.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "legit" here, but as I wrote above, Shields has clearly been a shark among minnows for much of his career. That won't be the case if he comes to the UFC.


Posted by Rush

I really feel that Jake will get destroyed against any of the top fighters in the WW (Alves, Fitch, Koscheck, GSP and probably Swick and Johnson)


I don't think he'll get "destroyed", but I do think that the top Welterweights are - not coincidentally - excellent wrestlers, and that Shields will be "picking on guys his own size", so to speak.


Posted by Rush

or MW (Anderson, Sonnen, Belfort, Silva, Marquardt or even Franklin) division in the UFC[...].


Yeah, I'm not convinced Shields is a "true Middleweight." He could give it a shot, I guess, but I expect him to compete at 170 in the UFC.


Posted by Rush

Anyways, I want him to come to the UFC because I believe he'll be exposed and at this point, in MMA, nothing would make me happier.


This is where the phrase "don't hate the player, hate the game" comes to mind. I agree that Shields will finally be a man amongst men in the UFC's welterweight division, but that's because wrestling is just so damned important in MMA. GSP, Jon Fitch, Josh Koscheck and Thiago Alves are "The Fab Four" because of their wrestling, imho, and Shields will make it a "Fab Five." Barring a one-punch (or knee, or whatever) blitz, I think Jake Shields would wrap up Paul Daley, Dan Hardy, Paulo Thiago, Martin Kampmann, Mike Swick, Dong Hyun Kim, Ben Saunders, and Marcus Davis like the proverbial Christmas goose.

I happen to enjoy wrestling, so I don't find fighters like Hughes, Shields, Fitch, and GSP boring at all. Of course, that's just personal preference, but I can't quite agree with your dismissal of "that is MMA and he is finding ways to win fights." I don't have any problem with someone who likes vanilla ice cream and dislikes chocolate ice cream, but you can't tell me vanilla is somehow "truer" ice cream. Paul Daley and Dan Hardy can flap their gums all they like, but until their wrestling improves, I think they'll lose - fair and square - to Shields and St Pierre 9 times out of 10.
jae_1833
4/24/10 1:26:34PM
To Rush:
I completely disagree sir, I think that the Henderson fight showed that other than a couple of very hard clean shots from an eliteist, there are very few ways that this kid can lose. Hendo's wrestling and big punching power has been notorious for years now, Jake took the hits, survived and then beat him at his own game.....the wrestling grind. Kos, and Fitch have already shown what an elite wrestler will do to them and I doubt that Shields would be unable to do to them exactly what GSP did.

Seriously now....the guy just outwrestled Dan Henderson!
george112
4/24/10 2:32:54PM
it was painfully obvious henderson gassed after the 1st round.

with that being said it gets on my nerves when people are giving shields credit for out wrestling hendo.in the first round hendo easily was defending shields takedowns.

but like i said hendo gassed and was unable to defend them no longer.that is hendos fault.i give shields credit for his cardio he came prepared for 5 rounds an he went for 5 rounds.

now i also have a problem about how he went about winning that fight..like the majority of the playground ive already made my case about how totally ineffective shields GnP is..so for the sake of laziness i will only get into it if i feel the need to bring up those points


GSP IMO would ABSOLUTELY 100% DESTROY shields.everything shields does GSP is already 10x better. standing GSP is far far superior. wrestling ABILITY is a toss up. but im more inclined to say GSP is better at utilizing and adapting it to MMA. (shields rushing in an hugging a single leg basically EVERYTIME isnt going to work on GSP).Now we come to cardio. since they have both proven they can go 5 rounds i can only base whos better on who actually looks more out of it at the end of the fight.so if i go by that GSP is hands down the fresher looking one.but thats besides the point.my point is that i dont think cardio will be a factor like it was for hendo.

to cut this post short (i will gladly go on if need be) all im saying is shields is going to need to do more than advance an maintain position if hes going to win a fight with GSP
postman
4/24/10 4:49:25PM
Guys Dan Henderson is great but his TD defense and bottom game are not that great. Credit to Jake for lasting the first and controling the fight but taking down and controling Hendo on his back was the one way I saw Jake winning.
BustedKnuckle
4/24/10 7:14:34PM
I definatly see Sheilds as a contender but to lump him in as the best contender!!??? I am not sold on that at all. He needs at least 1 dominant showing in the UFc before he gets GSP.
postman
4/24/10 7:28:31PM
Seems pretty crazy they would allow Anderson say who he wouldn't fight, I can't see why they won't allow GSP to say who he will fight.
Rush
4/25/10 12:32:51AM

Posted by AchillesHeel

This is where the phrase "don't hate the player, hate the game" comes to mind. I agree that Shields will finally be a man amongst men in the UFC's welterweight division, but that's because wrestling is just so damned important in MMA. GSP, Jon Fitch, Josh Koscheck and Thiago Alves are "The Fab Four" because of their wrestling, imho, and Shields will make it a "Fab Five." Barring a one-punch (or knee, or whatever) blitz, I think Jake Shields would wrap up Paul Daley, Dan Hardy, Paulo Thiago, Martin Kampmann, Mike Swick, Dong Hyun Kim, Ben Saunders, and Marcus Davis like the proverbial Christmas goose.

I happen to enjoy wrestling, so I don't find fighters like Hughes, Shields, Fitch, and GSP boring at all. Of course, that's just personal preference, but I can't quite agree with your dismissal of "that is MMA and he is finding ways to win fights." I don't have any problem with someone who likes vanilla ice cream and dislikes chocolate ice cream, but you can't tell me vanilla is somehow "truer" ice cream. Paul Daley and Dan Hardy can flap their gums all they like, but until their wrestling improves, I think they'll lose - fair and square - to Shields and St Pierre 9 times out of 10.



Don't get me wrong, I love wrestling. I am a grappler myself. However, what I have a hard time coming to grips with is that Jake's game doesn't add up to me. For example, it is a pretty basic piece of knowledge that if you are in mount, you are more stable when your centre of gravity is low. If you sit up straight you are in the least balanced position and therefore prone to losing your position. The catch in MMA is of course you can generate the most power if you sit up to come down with GnP.

Now, I see Jake taking the mount very easy in a lot of fights. One can attribute this to his skill as a wrestler/grappler. Ok fine. Where I start to lose it is when he sits up straight in mount and not only does the guy on the bottom do nothing (the escape is a white belt BJJ technique and is very easy to do). Sometimes Jake sits up in this position for a couple seconds and does nothing. Usually in MMA the escape is harder because you risk taking hard shots if it is not timed correctly, but this is Jake Shields, the guy that has no power shots from the most dominant mount position in the game. I also see Jake pass up submission opportunities handed to him on a silver platter and he doesn't take them. The talented fighters take these opportunities at will (see Maia). Any legit fighter by my standards would at least attempt the escape. I have yet to see (or remember seeing) one. Likewise, I have seen many fighters considered below Jake to finish fights by TKO or Sub from the same position.

This leaves me in a state of suspicion with regards to the opponents' skills or approach to the fight. It makes me wonder if Jake refuses not to or is incapable of finishing these guys. Couple that with the BS strikeforce is doing on national television, forgive me, I just can't take anything/anyone associated with the company seriously. Seriously, I see fake fights that look more convincing that some of the strikeforce fights. AS much as I dislike women's mma, they appeared to be some of the more legit looking fights the organization puts out because both fighters look like they are actually trying to fight.

In summary, I have no problem with fighters wrestling their way to victories, provided they are taking opportunities to finish fights. I just don't see that in the more recent fights I have seen of Jake's (Daley fight and onward). It has nothing to do with a fight ending in Dec. (yes I am aware Daley was finished) but rather how I see the fight approached. Everyone was pissed at Kalib in his fight with Quarry; Thales in his fight with Anderson, etc. That is how I feel when I watch Jake.

And I humbly disagree with anyone that thinks Jake beat the "real" Dan Henderson. Not only did Dan not look himself, he did not even look like much of a fighter. I am waiting for the explanation to come out some time.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/25/10 8:15:29PM
I agree with Rush. I was amazed at the inability of Shields to finish Henderson in that fight. Especially because as Rush said, he didn't look himself or much like a fighter.
chickmagnet
4/26/10 2:55:41AM
Shields no doubt deserves a shot but I wasnt too impressed with his last victory. Hendo wasnt the same as he usually is, and Shields was barely hitting him while on top, the punches looked very soft.

I think St. Pierre would sprawl and brawl his way to a tko victory. Maybe hit a takedown or two to add some highlights to a dominant victory.
AchillesHeel
4/26/10 11:51:06AM

Posted by Rush

Don't get me wrong, I love wrestling. I am a grappler myself. However, what I have a hard time coming to grips with is that Jake's game doesn't add up to me.[...]


As above, I don't really disagree with anything you wrote here. I don't really have any opinion on your Strikeforce 'conspiracy theory', but I will reiterate that, until the Hendo fight, I've thought that Shields has been "picking on" opponents below his ability for years.

Our difference of opinion lies, I think, in which of the incomplete fighters irks us. Where you roll your eyes at Shields, I roll mine at the sluggers with poor takedown defense and the submission artists with poor takedowns. After getting his ass handed to him by Cain Velasquez, Cheick Kongo may have turned the corner with his performance against Buentello. Dan Hardy and Paul Daley might have learned similarly useful lessons in their losses to GSP and Shields, but I don't know yet. I don't know anything about Junior Dos Santos' grappling ability, other than the fact that he's ready to jump into the deep end of the swimming pool. And the only way Shinya Aoki will ever get any of the top American Lightweights to the ground is by buying them off - I simply can't fathom how he thought he was going to beat Melendez.

But, it should be said, I don't hold any grudges against any of those fighters. If a kick-boxer thinks he can smash his way to a title, it will be fun watching him try. And if a jiu-jitsu player wants to compete in MMA by asking his opponents to please, pretty please, dive into his guard, that's his prerogative.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/26/10 4:09:09PM


That was the most well written statement I have ever read. That man deserves an award for that. I've been saying all of that stuff for years. That, for me, is why on another thread, I said that Hughes vs. Gracie was the second most important fight in the UFC for me. It basically signaled the end of one dimensional fighters and illustrated that you need a larger skill-set if you want to hang with the big boys. for saying it more eloquently.
CwB
4/26/10 6:53:09PM
This is coming from one huge Shields Hater.
I say make it happen give Shields GSP. Is jake better then the other contenders, no.

BUT he is the only contender who wouldn't be a rematch. He is the champ of UFC's only competition. He has fought twice on CBS so he should have some, casual fan, name recognition. He just beat an MMA legend (regardless of whether Dan gassed or didnt show up, the casual fan doesn't know any of that). He is one of the last contenders at 170 before GSP completely destroys an entire division.

UFC wil make this happen because it is champ vs champ and a way for them to discredit an entire organization.


P.S. (Yes, Daley hasnt lost to GSP yet either but he is fighting Kos and if he wins that fight he is next after Shields)
BlueSkiesBurn
4/26/10 7:01:00PM
I think it would be a better fight than people give it credit for. Many people didn't think that Hardy would last as long as he did. Yet, he was tough as nails. I know GSP has been on a decision-fest lately but I think Shields could make it interesting.
Rush
4/26/10 11:32:41PM

Posted by AchillesHeel


Our difference of opinion lies, I think, in which of the incomplete fighters irks us. Where you roll your eyes at Shields, I roll mine at the sluggers with poor takedown defense and the submission artists with poor takedowns.


But, it should be said, I don't hold any grudges against any of those fighters. If a kick-boxer thinks he can smash his way to a title, it will be fun watching him try. And if a jiu-jitsu player wants to compete in MMA by asking his opponents to please, pretty please, dive into his guard, that's his prerogative.




I certainly feel similar with respect to the sluggers,etc. I guess where I differentiate the two (Jake vs. others) is that I can accept the fact that a kickboxer will either choose not to or be incapable of quality wrestling. However, the issues I have with Jake's game are two things that I think he should already be proficient at doing, particularly someone at his level.

For the record, he isn't the only fighter that bothers me for his style (for the sake of summarizing it in one word), but I do get annoyed with him more for the fact that he is constantly praised as a great fighter when I don't think he really is. I guess that aspect of the issue is the icing on the cake for me.

I agree that a fighter can fight which ever way he/she wants, but there comes a limit where I don't buy the the fact that a particular style/skill set should work in theory, which brings it back to my "conspiracy theory". In the end I don't expect anyone to agree with me and it's frustrating for me too because I feel that I can't explain it well enough.
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