For general self-defense / real world situations...
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For general self-defense / real world situations...
DoTheMMAth
3/16/08 1:56:22PM
...would you train judo or JJ? Already have a boxing instructor lined up to compliment whichever of the aforementioned skillsets is most practical (I think this is the right way to go?).
Copenhagen
3/16/08 2:19:57PM
For real world situations I'd say go with Judo.
I find the easiest way to end a street fight is slamming/throwing someone on the concrete.
I find the easiest way to end a street fight is slamming/throwing someone on the concrete.
Mastodon2
3/16/08 2:40:37PM
Judo. The greater focus on throws and trips will be useful in a fight, and Judo teachs some pretty good submissions too. Maybe not as in depth as pure Jiu Jitsu, but then all you need is the basics like a decent choke etc, its unlikely you are gonna come up against a BJJ black belt on the street who you need some crazy anaconda choke to beat.
As for the standup, you said you have a boxing coach lined up. Boxing is better than nothing, but if becoming the absolute best you can be on your feet is what you are after, then I'd suggest seeking out a good Muay Thai coach, however, you may find this difficult if you arent in Europe or Asia. In the US, Muay Thai is still sort of kickboxing with elbows and knees tacked on, rather than true Muay Thai. Boxing is better than nothing and should equip you to chew chumps up if they ever try to fight with you, but for my money, I'd rather be capable with my fists, elbows knees and feet than just my fists.
As for the standup, you said you have a boxing coach lined up. Boxing is better than nothing, but if becoming the absolute best you can be on your feet is what you are after, then I'd suggest seeking out a good Muay Thai coach, however, you may find this difficult if you arent in Europe or Asia. In the US, Muay Thai is still sort of kickboxing with elbows and knees tacked on, rather than true Muay Thai. Boxing is better than nothing and should equip you to chew chumps up if they ever try to fight with you, but for my money, I'd rather be capable with my fists, elbows knees and feet than just my fists.
Jackelope
3/16/08 3:08:42PM
I'd definitely say Judo over BJJ, too. Not as an insult to BJJ, but for many of the reasons already mentioned. With a couple of good Judo trips and throws your opponent can get discouraged and give up. I've actually seen it happen. My cousin is an Aikido student, and with a few good evasive maneuvers and throws, the guy realized he was outmatched and gave up without anybody getting seriously injured.
With BJJ, you could take them down, and you could finish them, but choking them out or throwing them in an arm bar may be a bit excessive for simply stopping them from trying to kick your ass. I'd say a good couple of throws gets em mentally where you need to put em, and risks less in the form of serious injury and law suits.
With BJJ, you could take them down, and you could finish them, but choking them out or throwing them in an arm bar may be a bit excessive for simply stopping them from trying to kick your ass. I'd say a good couple of throws gets em mentally where you need to put em, and risks less in the form of serious injury and law suits.
DoTheMMAth
3/16/08 3:48:28PM
/props-issued
Thanks for the solid feedback guys, much appreciated!
Thanks for the solid feedback guys, much appreciated!
postman
3/16/08 5:30:50PM
If you want to be a real world bad ass learn Krav Maga.
seanfu
3/16/08 5:37:32PM
If by JJ you mean Japanese traditional style then I'd say it's close. I'd still go with Judo.
A nice punch to the ovaries might work too.
A nice punch to the ovaries might work too.
Svartorm
3/17/08 1:59:17AM
Honestly, you'll probably never need anything more than boxing, but between JJ and Judo, Judo is best, not just for ease of use in a real situation, but JJ takes a long time to learn, and theres a TON of filler.
Kracker_Jap
3/17/08 1:23:26PM
How about just skipping those apointments and going to a Krav Maga class
imanidiot777
3/17/08 3:25:23PM
Jeet Kun Do?
richieb19
3/17/08 4:28:24PM
BINGO!!!
Posted by postman
If you want to be a real world bad ass learn Krav Maga.
In the case of Judo and BJJ, I would definately go with judo. The ability to take your guy down, control him on the ground and choke him out if necessary is far more important than trying to catch him in your guard IMHO.
Easier though would just be to not fight people out of anger for petty reasons.
DoTheMMAth
3/17/08 7:57:50PM
Posted by richieb19
Easier though would just be to not fight people out of anger for petty reasons.
That's no fun! Really though, I'd just like the extra confidence boost and not having to worry, looking over my shoulder when my wife and I get home late and have to park far away from our place. I haven't been in a real fight in 7 long years. Plus I'd like to fantasize that I'm a big mean fighting machine like I could be a TUFer or something.
Kracker_Jap
3/17/08 8:01:22PM
Posted by DoTheMMAth
Posted by richieb19
Easier though would just be to not fight people out of anger for petty reasons.
. Plus I'd like to fantasize that I'm a big mean fighting machine like I could be a TUFer or something.
I can't wait for the day some one F's with my wife or Kids because then its super tuff bad ass dad for the beat down KrackerJap Ninja Style 
I guess I know what your talkin about
Svartorm
3/18/08 1:25:42AM
Posted by Kracker_Jap
How about just skipping those apointments and going to a Krav Maga class
Personally, I've never met a Krav Maga instructor that could so much crack an egg, and have some serious reservations about the system in general. ANY military system addresses situations that don't come up in civilian life, and have methods of dealing with them that are generally inappropriate. I think their emphasis on fitness is a nice touch, especially for the urban commandos out there, but as an overall combat system, its seriously flawed.
The combination of Boxing and Judo is very real-world functional.
Kracker_Jap
3/18/08 10:01:24AM
LOL I guess the only influence I have for Krav Maga is off of that show Fight Quest, but I do plan to enrole my wife as soon as she done with her pregnancy i found a studio about 10min away from the house.
I do believe Judo is better than JJ for in the real world but because I don't like the idea of going to the ground or tieing your self up so some freind of the guy your fighting can stomp on your head
From what i know of Krav Maga I like the usage palms fist and elbows along with the footwork to keep the blind spots open
Boxing in comparison is not even a combat system and is extreamly one demensional..... But added with some decent Judo skills i could see it protecting your family
Svartorm- when I read your post, I get confused about the comparis on military hand to hand combat situation to a civilain one??
And what in genaral is an inappropriate method, lets say to protect your self or your family in a real world situation?
I do believe Judo is better than JJ for in the real world but because I don't like the idea of going to the ground or tieing your self up so some freind of the guy your fighting can stomp on your head
From what i know of Krav Maga I like the usage palms fist and elbows along with the footwork to keep the blind spots open
Boxing in comparison is not even a combat system and is extreamly one demensional..... But added with some decent Judo skills i could see it protecting your family
Svartorm- when I read your post, I get confused about the comparis on military hand to hand combat situation to a civilain one??
And what in genaral is an inappropriate method, lets say to protect your self or your family in a real world situation?
The_Notorious_ZIG
3/18/08 11:08:40AM
I'd say Judo for similar reasons already stated. That said....I'm interested in hearing the specific flaws of Krav Maga as a combat system. From my perspective....eye gauges, groin strikes, creating space, staying on your feet and watch your blind is about as real and efficient as it gets for real life situations.
Jackelope
3/18/08 2:59:03PM
Depending on the situation of course. Say if you're being mugged in a parking lot, then groin shots and eye gouges are definitely warranted. If you're in a scrap with some dude in a bar, well, then eye gouges and groin shots might not be so warranted. As always, situation dictates.
The_Notorious_ZIG
3/18/08 3:23:20PM
Ahhh....so the flaw is that its too severe and absolute for alot of situations. I may have misunderstood the criticism in that post.
I took it as Krav Maga was ineffective as a "combat system".... which I disagree. The poster mentioned that most "Krav Maga instructors couldn't crack an egg". I've never trained in it, but I have a friend who trains and his instructor is Isreali and is a brutal task master. Their tests to get to the next levels are the craziest things I've ever seen. The class is definitely not for the timid.
That said....he has also complained about the recent surge of "Soccer Mom Krav Maga" gyms popping up everywhere. Its not the same.
I took it as Krav Maga was ineffective as a "combat system".... which I disagree. The poster mentioned that most "Krav Maga instructors couldn't crack an egg". I've never trained in it, but I have a friend who trains and his instructor is Isreali and is a brutal task master. Their tests to get to the next levels are the craziest things I've ever seen. The class is definitely not for the timid.
That said....he has also complained about the recent surge of "Soccer Mom Krav Maga" gyms popping up everywhere. Its not the same.
Svartorm
3/18/08 6:34:26PM
Oddly enough, it was the episode of Fight Quest that really turned me off of Krav Maga, that combined with other experiences.
Heres my problems with Krav Maga:
1. The stance work is HORRIBLE! Not only are your legs contoured to channel any kind of low kick directly into your groin, but the way the arms are held don't allow them to be chambered for anything except the palm strikes. While palm strikes can be useful, they generally pale in comparision to the blunt force trauma delivered by a solid punch or hammer strike. Yes, some people can level people with palm strikes, but Krav Maga doesn't teach decent striking mechanics, so thats a moot point.
2. The emphasis on physical fitness, while an interesting aspect of the marital art, has NOTHING to do with actual self-defense. A street fight will seldom last more than ten seconds, and having the ability to complete a spec ops torture test really doesn't factor into the time frame of a violent encounter. If your real concern is physical fitness, Krav Maga is a great system. If your real concern is protecting yourself and your loved ones, the time spent on physical fitness can be better applied learning punching mechanics, free rolling, or any number of other things.
3. Like I mentioned, the situations that a civilian will encounter are not the same as encountered by military. While it sounds cool that you're training an art that involves poking peoples eyes out and stomping on their heads, that doesn't neccessarily translate to society. Yes, there are situations where you may have to do that, but they are few and far between, and the vast majority of violent encounters you have will be solved with non-lethal force. A solid liver punch or elbow to the jaw will just as easily stop a mugging as ripping someones eyeballs out. The difference is one will put you behind bars in court and the other will see you go free.
4. The emphasis on groups of weapon-wielding individuals attacking you is not realistic to civilian self-defense either, as in civilian situations, you can generally just hand over your wallet and be done with it. The military trains in this way because if they're being attacked, its a life for death situation. While it COULD be a life or death situation in civilian life, chances are its not, and you'd be better served learning to identify and deal with these kinds of people than to figure out a narrowly successful way of trying to fight all of them. If groups of knife wielding maniacs are a real concern in your life, buy a handgun, learn how to shoot, and get a CCW permit.
5. While Krav Maga can be useful in a one-on-one self defense situation, a Krav Maga practitioner will be absolutely leveled fighting someone with an equal amount of time in a traditional or combat sport art. The system is too incomplete on fundamentals to tangle with someone of even middling skill in boxing, wrestling or a TMA.
What Krav Maga IS good at is getting someone into excellent shape, improving your self-confidence, and its an art that is designed to be learned fairly quickly. It also covers some knife and club defense, although the material I've seen on this is sketchy at best, especially when people are overhooking someones arm while they're holding a knife.
Like I said to DotheMMath, if hes looking for real combat effectiveness, boxing and Judo are an excellent combination, as a basic jab, a one-two punch, and the ability to stay off the ground are all you generally need to deal with 99% of people you may have to fight. The only thing Krav Maga has over this would be the knife defense techniques, such as they are, but this is easily remedied by taking a seminar or two on the subject.
Heres my problems with Krav Maga:
1. The stance work is HORRIBLE! Not only are your legs contoured to channel any kind of low kick directly into your groin, but the way the arms are held don't allow them to be chambered for anything except the palm strikes. While palm strikes can be useful, they generally pale in comparision to the blunt force trauma delivered by a solid punch or hammer strike. Yes, some people can level people with palm strikes, but Krav Maga doesn't teach decent striking mechanics, so thats a moot point.
2. The emphasis on physical fitness, while an interesting aspect of the marital art, has NOTHING to do with actual self-defense. A street fight will seldom last more than ten seconds, and having the ability to complete a spec ops torture test really doesn't factor into the time frame of a violent encounter. If your real concern is physical fitness, Krav Maga is a great system. If your real concern is protecting yourself and your loved ones, the time spent on physical fitness can be better applied learning punching mechanics, free rolling, or any number of other things.
3. Like I mentioned, the situations that a civilian will encounter are not the same as encountered by military. While it sounds cool that you're training an art that involves poking peoples eyes out and stomping on their heads, that doesn't neccessarily translate to society. Yes, there are situations where you may have to do that, but they are few and far between, and the vast majority of violent encounters you have will be solved with non-lethal force. A solid liver punch or elbow to the jaw will just as easily stop a mugging as ripping someones eyeballs out. The difference is one will put you behind bars in court and the other will see you go free.
4. The emphasis on groups of weapon-wielding individuals attacking you is not realistic to civilian self-defense either, as in civilian situations, you can generally just hand over your wallet and be done with it. The military trains in this way because if they're being attacked, its a life for death situation. While it COULD be a life or death situation in civilian life, chances are its not, and you'd be better served learning to identify and deal with these kinds of people than to figure out a narrowly successful way of trying to fight all of them. If groups of knife wielding maniacs are a real concern in your life, buy a handgun, learn how to shoot, and get a CCW permit.
5. While Krav Maga can be useful in a one-on-one self defense situation, a Krav Maga practitioner will be absolutely leveled fighting someone with an equal amount of time in a traditional or combat sport art. The system is too incomplete on fundamentals to tangle with someone of even middling skill in boxing, wrestling or a TMA.
What Krav Maga IS good at is getting someone into excellent shape, improving your self-confidence, and its an art that is designed to be learned fairly quickly. It also covers some knife and club defense, although the material I've seen on this is sketchy at best, especially when people are overhooking someones arm while they're holding a knife.
Like I said to DotheMMath, if hes looking for real combat effectiveness, boxing and Judo are an excellent combination, as a basic jab, a one-two punch, and the ability to stay off the ground are all you generally need to deal with 99% of people you may have to fight. The only thing Krav Maga has over this would be the knife defense techniques, such as they are, but this is easily remedied by taking a seminar or two on the subject.
The_Notorious_ZIG
3/19/08 10:39:44AM
Interesting and detailed insight. Thanks. That is what I was interested in hearing. Not everyone would agree with all of your statements, but I think there are very valid points in your assessment. 
silverbullet
3/19/08 12:48:17PM
Judo for reasons already stated. I practiced Judo for a couple of years some time ago, and currently doing BJJ 3-4 times a week. Grappling is awesome until somebody starts stomping you with a work boot.
I think that you do not understand or accept the idea behind Krav Maga and you are dispensing bad advice to people.
Posted by Svartorm
3. Like I mentioned, the situations that a civilian will encounter are not the same as encountered by military. While it sounds cool that you're training an art that involves poking peoples eyes out and stomping on their heads, that doesn't neccessarily translate to society. Yes, there are situations where you may have to do that, but they are few and far between, and the vast majority of violent encounters you have will be solved with non-lethal force. A solid liver punch or elbow to the jaw will just as easily stop a mugging as ripping someones eyeballs out. The difference is one will put you behind bars in court and the other will see you go free.
4. The emphasis on groups of weapon-wielding individuals attacking you is not realistic to civilian self-defense either, as in civilian situations, you can generally just hand over your wallet and be done with it. The military trains in this way because if they're being attacked, its a life for death situation. While it COULD be a life or death situation in civilian life, chances are its not, and you'd be better served learning to identify and deal with these kinds of people than to figure out a narrowly successful way of trying to fight all of them. If groups of knife wielding maniacs are a real concern in your life, buy a handgun, learn how to shoot, and get a CCW permit.
5. While Krav Maga can be useful in a one-on-one self defense situation, a Krav Maga practitioner will be absolutely leveled fighting someone with an equal amount of time in a traditional or combat sport art. The system is too incomplete on fundamentals to tangle with someone of even middling skill in boxing, wrestling or a TMA.
I think that you do not understand or accept the idea behind Krav Maga and you are dispensing bad advice to people.
Svartorm
3/19/08 4:55:42PM
Then feel free to argue any points you care to and I'll respond.
Kracker_Jap
3/19/08 8:52:52PM
Posted by Svartorm
Oddly enough, it was the episode of Fight Quest that really turned me off of Krav Maga, that combined with other experiences.
Heres my problems with Krav Maga:
1. The stance work is HORRIBLE! Not only are your legs contoured to channel any kind of low kick directly into your groin, but the way the arms are held don't allow them to be chambered for anything except the palm strikes. While palm strikes can be useful, they generally pale in comparision to the blunt force trauma delivered by a solid punch or hammer strike. Yes, some people can level people with palm strikes, but Krav Maga doesn't teach decent striking mechanics, so thats a moot point.
2. The emphasis on physical fitness, while an interesting aspect of the marital art, has NOTHING to do with actual self-defense. A street fight will seldom last more than ten seconds, and having the ability to complete a spec ops torture test really doesn't factor into the time frame of a violent encounter. If your real concern is physical fitness, Krav Maga is a great system. If your real concern is protecting yourself and your loved ones, the time spent on physical fitness can be better applied learning punching mechanics, free rolling, or any number of other things.
3. Like I mentioned, the situations that a civilian will encounter are not the same as encountered by military. While it sounds cool that you're training an art that involves poking peoples eyes out and stomping on their heads, that doesn't neccessarily translate to society. Yes, there are situations where you may have to do that, but they are few and far between, and the vast majority of violent encounters you have will be solved with non-lethal force. A solid liver punch or elbow to the jaw will just as easily stop a mugging as ripping someones eyeballs out. The difference is one will put you behind bars in court and the other will see you go free.
4. The emphasis on groups of weapon-wielding individuals attacking you is not realistic to civilian self-defense either, as in civilian situations, you can generally just hand over your wallet and be done with it. The military trains in this way because if they're being attacked, its a life for death situation. While it COULD be a life or death situation in civilian life, chances are its not, and you'd be better served learning to identify and deal with these kinds of people than to figure out a narrowly successful way of trying to fight all of them. If groups of knife wielding maniacs are a real concern in your life, buy a handgun, learn how to shoot, and get a CCW permit.
5. While Krav Maga can be useful in a one-on-one self defense situation, a Krav Maga practitioner will be absolutely leveled fighting someone with an equal amount of time in a traditional or combat sport art. The system is too incomplete on fundamentals to tangle with someone of even middling skill in boxing, wrestling or a TMA.
What Krav Maga IS good at is getting someone into excellent shape, improving your self-confidence, and its an art that is designed to be learned fairly quickly. It also covers some knife and club defense, although the material I've seen on this is sketchy at best, especially when people are overhooking someones arm while they're holding a knife.
Like I said to DotheMMath, if hes looking for real combat effectiveness, boxing and Judo are an excellent combination, as a basic jab, a one-two punch, and the ability to stay off the ground are all you generally need to deal with 99% of people you may have to fight. The only thing Krav Maga has over this would be the knife defense techniques, such as they are, but this is easily remedied by taking a seminar or two on the subject.
A different point of View..... Simply stated cause I don't like to type
1 I know nothing about stance of Kav Maga but do understand it is alot harder to break your hand while using your palm than your fist "moot point"
2 The emphasis on physical fitness has alot more to it than just endurance... So in a street fight I'm going to pick the stronger, faster, more flexible fighter over the keyboard warrior
3 I'm pretty sure that if your attacked by some thug and you poke him in the eye, kidney punch, pull their hair or even chop them in the throat to protect your self or your family.... you won't end up in jail
4 This maybe true??? but what if handing over your wallet lets them know your weak and now they would like for you to hand over your wife?? A hand gun is a good idea but so is learning how to defend your self
5
I am a great wrestler and all around tuff guy but if some pokes my eye out "I lose" the thing is we or others that have training in combative sports normaly do not practice the defending the eye pokeSvatorm- I fully understand were your comming from and agree with you....
But on this note... "as a husband and father a real world situation could be alot more than a street brawl" just watch the news
silverbullet
3/19/08 10:06:56PM
Posted by Kracker_Jap
A different point of View..... Simply stated cause I don't like to type
1 I know nothing about stance of Kav Maga but do understand it is alot harder to break your hand while using your palm than your fist "moot point"
2 The emphasis on physical fitness has alot more to it than just endurance... So in a street fight I'm going to pick the stronger, faster, more flexible fighter over the keyboard warrior
3 I'm pretty sure that if your attacked by some thug and you poke him in the eye, kidney punch, pull their hair or even chop them in the throat to protect your self or your family.... you won't end up in jail
4 This maybe true??? but what if handing over your wallet lets them know your weak and now they would like for you to hand over your wife?? A hand gun is a good idea but so is learning how to defend your self
5
Svatorm- I fully understand were your comming from and agree with you....
But on this note... "as a husband and father a real world situation could be alot more than a street brawl" just watch the news
Basically I agree with you 90% except for #4. Yes, scenarios against multiple attackers are rare but they are most difficult to deal with. You are more likely to be flanked, and less likely to get away on foot, especially if you are not alone.
Kracker_Jap
3/19/08 10:43:12PM
Hey 4 out of is not bad
Svartorm
3/19/08 11:00:22PM
Posted by Kracker_Jap
A different point of View..... Simply stated cause I don't like to type
1 I know nothing about stance of Kav Maga but do understand it is alot harder to break your hand while using your palm than your fist "moot point"
2 The emphasis on physical fitness has alot more to it than just endurance... So in a street fight I'm going to pick the stronger, faster, more flexible fighter over the keyboard warrior
3 I'm pretty sure that if your attacked by some thug and you poke him in the eye, kidney punch, pull their hair or even chop them in the throat to protect your self or your family.... you won't end up in jail
4 This maybe true??? but what if handing over your wallet lets them know your weak and now they would like for you to hand over your wife?? A hand gun is a good idea but so is learning how to defend your self
5
Svatorm- I fully understand were your comming from and agree with you....
But on this note... "as a husband and father a real world situation could be alot more than a street brawl" just watch the news
1. The "moot point" was concerning being able to hit as hard with a palm as with a closed fist, not making it more difficult to break a palm than it is to break a fist. Yes, palm strikes are less likely to break your hand, but they're also less likely to knock out or injure the guy you're hitting if you don't know how to do it right. I'd rather bust a finger and KO someone in a self-defense situation than drop palms on the guy repeatedly and hope he goes down. Palm strikes are generally only effective to certain areas of the body anyways, which may or may not present themselves, whereas a closed fist will do considerable damage to practically any part of the body.
2. Strength plays a factor if you know how to use it, but where is endurance and flexablily going to come into play in a three second encounter? Its not. Thats one of the great things the early UFCs showed that threw the TMA world on its head was that fat, 2nd rate kickboxers and "pit fighters" could destroy national champs and guys with 15-20 years of experience, because they could throw a solid overhand punch or crush a guy against the fence. Real life vs. TMA fiction.
3. I'm positive you've never looked into the legal aspects of self-defense, or you'd know you're wrong. I'm not even arguing this point because you have no leg to stand on here.
4. There are exceptions to every rule, and a large part of self-defense is figuring out what a person or persons is looking for when confronting you. The much larger part of self-defense is making sure you never end up in this situation in the first place. Detection and avoidance are the main goal when dealing with potentially violent encouters. As for when you hand over your wallet and they want something else? Now you're legally able to kill in self-defense, as you've shown they're not interested in your possesions. No matter what you study though, a mass melee is a rough situation at best, especially when you have a non-combatant to look out for.
As for learning to defend yourself, I do believe I've already covered that by saying boxing and judo are a great combination for self-defense. A firearm is a much better option, as 93% of violent encounters are stopped by displaying a firearm.
5. So what you're saying is if you fought anyone that knew how to poke you in the eye, you'd lose? Maybe you should train to avoid this. As a great wrestler, I'd imagine you'd have to guy in a body lock or double leg before they managed to bust out a series of vicious eyepokes, but have it your way.
As for your parting words, I've been doing TMA since I was 9, I've taught everything from sub grappling to women's self defense for the last 4 years, and I'm an avid reader of self-defense books, newspapers, and magazines dealing with the subject. I have a wealth of information concerning legal aspects of self-defense and real-world situations. Trust me, I watch and read the news every day.
I'm not saying Krav Maga is useless, because its not. I'm saying the thread starter would be better served learning boxing and judo, as Krav Maga, as a system, has structural and fundamental flaws. If he didn't live in NYC, I'd have recommended he purchase a firearm, but thats not an option in his situation.
If you care to continue to argue, thats fine, but don't waste my time with being "pretty sure" and "maybe its true". I've put the time into real-world self-defense, so if you're going to question my knowledge on the subject, be prepared to back it up.
Rush
3/19/08 11:35:35PM
Just a couple of things not geared toward anyone in particular. Take them as they are at face value
1) Regarding fitness - Fitness is not everything and probably not even half the battle in most encounters with people on the street. A lot of MMA fans are brainwashed (IMO) that fitness and strength replace technique. I don't think this is so. The whole purpose of TMA is to use technique to defeat bigger and stronger enemies. Strength and fitness make a difference when the level of technique of both fighters are high. Besides, most TMA training gets you in good shape anyways.
2) Regarding the law. How the law handles self-defense situations is different in each country and most likely each state. You cannot generalize it. In some cases martial arts training can work against you in court and you have to be careful how you approach a situation.
I have a book called "Canadian Law and the Martial Artist" It had a lot of interesting information in it. I would be happy to share some of it with you, but you'd have to keep in mind that it is only applicable in Canada.
As far as self-defense is concerned. I think the three most important aspects that martial arts (should) teach are these:
1) Learning how to spot potentially dangerous situations and avoid them. A part of training is to observe body language and assess what it tells you. Many forms of martial arts training do not teach this, but I think they should.
2) Learning how to react to a situation when it presents itself. This does not contradict with number 1 because you cannot see and avoid all dangerous situations. I've been in a few and thought about what I did right and wrong afterwards. An important key thing that training has taught me is to react whereas many people tend to freeze. A lot of people ask me what I would do if someone pulled a gun on me. My response, I don't know. Either I would react without thinking or I would give them my wallet if I actually thought about it. Controlling your emotion is also an important skill to learn.
3) Learning how to react in an efficient manner. It doesn't have to be pretty, but it has to be practical. Not only do you need to know proper technique to efficiently take care of business, but you need experience to know when to stop. This becomes an issue in two situations. 1) If you do not do enough damage to your attacker, then run away, you might find them getting up and catching you down the road. 2) If you do too much damage you might find yourself in jail.
1) Regarding fitness - Fitness is not everything and probably not even half the battle in most encounters with people on the street. A lot of MMA fans are brainwashed (IMO) that fitness and strength replace technique. I don't think this is so. The whole purpose of TMA is to use technique to defeat bigger and stronger enemies. Strength and fitness make a difference when the level of technique of both fighters are high. Besides, most TMA training gets you in good shape anyways.
2) Regarding the law. How the law handles self-defense situations is different in each country and most likely each state. You cannot generalize it. In some cases martial arts training can work against you in court and you have to be careful how you approach a situation.
I have a book called "Canadian Law and the Martial Artist" It had a lot of interesting information in it. I would be happy to share some of it with you, but you'd have to keep in mind that it is only applicable in Canada.
As far as self-defense is concerned. I think the three most important aspects that martial arts (should) teach are these:
1) Learning how to spot potentially dangerous situations and avoid them. A part of training is to observe body language and assess what it tells you. Many forms of martial arts training do not teach this, but I think they should.
2) Learning how to react to a situation when it presents itself. This does not contradict with number 1 because you cannot see and avoid all dangerous situations. I've been in a few and thought about what I did right and wrong afterwards. An important key thing that training has taught me is to react whereas many people tend to freeze. A lot of people ask me what I would do if someone pulled a gun on me. My response, I don't know. Either I would react without thinking or I would give them my wallet if I actually thought about it. Controlling your emotion is also an important skill to learn.
3) Learning how to react in an efficient manner. It doesn't have to be pretty, but it has to be practical. Not only do you need to know proper technique to efficiently take care of business, but you need experience to know when to stop. This becomes an issue in two situations. 1) If you do not do enough damage to your attacker, then run away, you might find them getting up and catching you down the road. 2) If you do too much damage you might find yourself in jail.
ncordless
3/19/08 11:40:58PM
Alot of people have said Judo... but I think there are some things to think about.
1: BJJ classes often offer a no-gi class. I find no-gi class to be very helpful for real world situations and would venture to say they are more effective than any gi class, either Judo or BJJ.
2: IMO, the takedowns that I have been shown in BJJ are complete crap. But, in my limited exposure to Judo, I've seen alot of takedowns there that rely on your opponent wearing a gi. How effective are they really going to be in real life?
3. I would specifically wonder about the real life worth of Olympic-style Judo. If you do choose Judo, do some research on the dojo and find out if they are geared towards competition or self defense.
For real world situations, I suggest you find a BJJ grappling academy with a large no-gi component and progressive views towards wrestling techniques.
EDIT: I want to reinforce that I have little exp. with Judo and I may just be speaking in ignorance about it. I do however have alot of exp. with wrestling and believe that the tech. of wrestling is better for real life situations, especially when mixed with BJJ.
Also, to do with Krav Maga, I agree with Svar. The system is flawed by a faulty stance and inadequate technique. The target areas of Krav Maga might be well suited for real life or death situations, but how much technique is needed for an eye gouge? Or nutshots?
1: BJJ classes often offer a no-gi class. I find no-gi class to be very helpful for real world situations and would venture to say they are more effective than any gi class, either Judo or BJJ.
2: IMO, the takedowns that I have been shown in BJJ are complete crap. But, in my limited exposure to Judo, I've seen alot of takedowns there that rely on your opponent wearing a gi. How effective are they really going to be in real life?
3. I would specifically wonder about the real life worth of Olympic-style Judo. If you do choose Judo, do some research on the dojo and find out if they are geared towards competition or self defense.
For real world situations, I suggest you find a BJJ grappling academy with a large no-gi component and progressive views towards wrestling techniques.
EDIT: I want to reinforce that I have little exp. with Judo and I may just be speaking in ignorance about it. I do however have alot of exp. with wrestling and believe that the tech. of wrestling is better for real life situations, especially when mixed with BJJ.
Also, to do with Krav Maga, I agree with Svar. The system is flawed by a faulty stance and inadequate technique. The target areas of Krav Maga might be well suited for real life or death situations, but how much technique is needed for an eye gouge? Or nutshots?
Svartorm
3/20/08 12:43:32AM
Great points Rush and Ncordless!
I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but when I mentioned Judo as being better than JJ for real-life situations, I was speaking more of its ability to keep you OFF the ground, its ability to put others ON the ground with you standing, and its no-nonsense and boiled down approach to combat.
While BJJ is also no-nonsense, the emphasis is fighting on the ground, which could be a death sentence depending on the circumstances.
As for judo throws, I have limited experience with Judo myself, and just learned as an aside in my BJJ classes, but throws work phenominally well in self-defense contexts for several reasons.
1. They can easily take someone out of a fight on a hard surface, like a baroom/dance floor or concrete.
2. Especially where alcohol or drugs may be involved, the sensation of being throw ass over teakettle tends to take someone out of the fight momentarily as they have to get their sense of direction back.
3. (this is from personal experience) If there IS the concern of a group encounter, it shows that you know your stuff, as people don't "accidently" pull off technical throws, and can make people think twice about fighting.
Also, from a legal standpoint, things like throws, trips, etc show you're not actually looking to hurt people, as opposed to punches and kicks.
I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but when I mentioned Judo as being better than JJ for real-life situations, I was speaking more of its ability to keep you OFF the ground, its ability to put others ON the ground with you standing, and its no-nonsense and boiled down approach to combat.
While BJJ is also no-nonsense, the emphasis is fighting on the ground, which could be a death sentence depending on the circumstances.
As for judo throws, I have limited experience with Judo myself, and just learned as an aside in my BJJ classes, but throws work phenominally well in self-defense contexts for several reasons.
1. They can easily take someone out of a fight on a hard surface, like a baroom/dance floor or concrete.
2. Especially where alcohol or drugs may be involved, the sensation of being throw ass over teakettle tends to take someone out of the fight momentarily as they have to get their sense of direction back.
3. (this is from personal experience) If there IS the concern of a group encounter, it shows that you know your stuff, as people don't "accidently" pull off technical throws, and can make people think twice about fighting.
Also, from a legal standpoint, things like throws, trips, etc show you're not actually looking to hurt people, as opposed to punches and kicks.
Rush
3/20/08 9:49:29AM
If I had to choose between Judo and BJJ, I would say judo, but realistically I would not go with either of them. I would prefer Daito Ryo Aikijujutsu any day.
The reason I chose judo is more or less what Svar said. That and the fact that I think most judo guys' ground work is better than most BJJ guys' takedowns and takedown defense.
One thing I don't like about BJJ is the notion that the fight must be on the ground. This is not the place I want to be when
a) there could be more than one assailant
b) if I have friends or family that also need protection
c) a hazardous environment with glass or metal on the ground
The Gracie's self-defense tape is just a bunch of sloppy jujutsu techniques IMO and are not BJJ by any standard.
One drawback of judo is that most dojo teach either competitive or recreational judo. That being said, they teach judo for sport competition or for fun. While both can benefit you in real life situations, more so the competitive judo (some of those guys are tough), I have yet to see a judo dojo that teaches a practical form of self-defense, especially from being attacked from any kind of striking. They also do not teach two of the three aspects that I find important.
I cannot speak for BJJ in that respect because I have not done any formal BJJ training, but I am guessing, from the BJJ guys that I know and have fought, that the approach to training is not much different.
I agree with Svar the most. For self-defense, the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is the best method. All you need is one or two moves each for striking and grappling and you will be much better than knowing a 100 techniques from just one aspect or the other.
Other two points
RE: eye gouges. I have been eye gouged before. IT hurts like hell and my eyes burned for an hour. This is something I recommend all women (and men too ) to keep in mind for self-defense.
RE groin shots. They should be kept in mind, but don't always work. As I said, most people freeze in a particular situation. These things only work if you train to react to a situation. Here's a story:
My sister once made fun of my training. She said, I don't need that crap. If someone comes at me I'll just kick them in the balls. So I told her that I was going to attack her (we were in the kitchen) and gave her permission to kick me in the balls. All I did was jump toward her with my nostrils flared and let out the loudest yell. She stumbled back, hit the back of her head on the cupboard fell to the ground and started crying. Had she been able to react, I would have been the one on the ground (possibly crying). She never mocked my training since then.
The reason I chose judo is more or less what Svar said. That and the fact that I think most judo guys' ground work is better than most BJJ guys' takedowns and takedown defense.
One thing I don't like about BJJ is the notion that the fight must be on the ground. This is not the place I want to be when
a) there could be more than one assailant
b) if I have friends or family that also need protection
c) a hazardous environment with glass or metal on the ground
The Gracie's self-defense tape is just a bunch of sloppy jujutsu techniques IMO and are not BJJ by any standard.
One drawback of judo is that most dojo teach either competitive or recreational judo. That being said, they teach judo for sport competition or for fun. While both can benefit you in real life situations, more so the competitive judo (some of those guys are tough), I have yet to see a judo dojo that teaches a practical form of self-defense, especially from being attacked from any kind of striking. They also do not teach two of the three aspects that I find important.
I cannot speak for BJJ in that respect because I have not done any formal BJJ training, but I am guessing, from the BJJ guys that I know and have fought, that the approach to training is not much different.
I agree with Svar the most. For self-defense, the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is the best method. All you need is one or two moves each for striking and grappling and you will be much better than knowing a 100 techniques from just one aspect or the other.
Other two points
RE: eye gouges. I have been eye gouged before. IT hurts like hell and my eyes burned for an hour. This is something I recommend all women (and men too ) to keep in mind for self-defense.
RE groin shots. They should be kept in mind, but don't always work. As I said, most people freeze in a particular situation. These things only work if you train to react to a situation. Here's a story:
My sister once made fun of my training. She said, I don't need that crap. If someone comes at me I'll just kick them in the balls. So I told her that I was going to attack her (we were in the kitchen) and gave her permission to kick me in the balls. All I did was jump toward her with my nostrils flared and let out the loudest yell. She stumbled back, hit the back of her head on the cupboard fell to the ground and started crying. Had she been able to react, I would have been the one on the ground (possibly crying). She never mocked my training since then.