Is the gaurd becoming obsolete?

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The-Don
5/16/08 8:10:15PM
Hmm I have read in a cpuple of places now, (Mind you these were just opinions) abnd it has me thinking... Is the gaurd slowly becoming uneffective at the higer leves? I have enven noticed this myself a bit.. guys trapped in teh gaurd still manage to rain down effective blows.. now granted this could be in part due to the one pon the bottom not knowing how to effectively use the gaurd but I have seen other people make this comment.. I personally hope this is not true cause I have a pretty good gaurd and have been very effective with it in the past in my training.. Am I just reading into the posts of a couple of people who don't understand a gaurd or are they onto something?


My personal thgoughts is it is still effective and what I have seen in matches is just one person that much more experienced then the other...
postman
5/16/08 8:27:29PM
I think for the most part its the guy on the bottom not being any good at the gaurd. Also the " Eddie Bravo Rubber Gaurd" he done right is very effective.
The-Don
5/16/08 8:38:06PM
So your opinion is like mine, that alot of times the guy on the bottom just does not know how to effectively use the gaurd to its fullest...
postman
5/16/08 8:46:46PM
For the most part. I mean not many guys other then Mir and Nog in the HW division are going to have a gaurd that will keep lesnar at bay hes just to strong. There are those guys that are A. Just too strong and power there way out and B. Have the good top BJJ and can pass the gaurd. but guys like Mir, Nog, BJ Penn who know what they are doing will be able to over come that. A striker who gets droped on his head and is just laying in closed gaurd for the most part is in a bad spot.
bigbubbano23
5/16/08 9:42:15PM
the guard works very well in jiu jitsu but only detains your opponent in mma. untill he passes or you work to improve your position.
Svartorm
5/17/08 3:14:22AM
Absolutely not obsolete, but I do think with the amount of people rushing to becoming "well-rounded fighters", a lot of the up and comers never spent the time to learn solid BJJ fundimentals, like the guard. Look at Nate Diaz vs. Kurt Pellegrino. Nate was getting his head pounded in and subbed Kurt from guard because he has an extremely well-versed guard game. The guard is so complex though that people don't want to learn anything about it except how to pass it and how to triangle or armbar from it.
Jackelope
5/17/08 3:40:42AM
100% agree with Svartom.

The guard is useful in hundreds, if not thousands of ways. Currently the most dangerous BJJ guys in MMA all have a well versed guard game. Nog's submission over Sylvia came from a guard sweep, Anderson Silva's submission of Dan Henderson originated from a guard sweep. Most submissions at this point are coming from the guard in the highest levels of the game. I won't get into the craziest specifics about it, but suffice it to say that I agree with Svartom and then some.
fedorwins1
5/17/08 2:34:36PM
No, it's the person on the bottom who doesn't know how to use the guard effectively. There are plenty of fighters, who if you take them down and they get guard, they can take very very minimal damage (Torres, A. Silva, Penn). The guard is tricky, there's so many things you can do from the guard. Also, the level of fighters is higher than it was a few years ago, so the fighter on top might have a part in this also. A lot of fighters now are good at JJ and have good sub. defense.
seanfu
5/17/08 2:47:44PM
I would have to disagree with the majority of the guys above me. The (full guard) is a solid tool but as far as being offensive I would say the end is nearing. Diaz and Silva are tall guys with long legs and a long frame, very difficult to control due to their natural attributes.

The legs can grab that triangle right up.

I would probably argue that the best guard is the rubber guard and in the cage (which is the location for pretty much all the major orgs anymore) an experianced top guy just has to push the bottom guys head against the wall.

keep in mind that the question posed was whether the guard was an effective defensive weapon and Diaz to a beating in that fight (as Noguirea is known for) before slapping on the sub for the win.

The guy above me made a good point saying Penn and Silva make good use of the guard but these two are phenomal fighters period.

The-Don
5/17/08 5:38:25PM
well as the origional poster It is not just for defensive purposes or offensive as well basicly all around usefulness of the gaurd... and by the way some excellent posts so far. I am glad I found this section.
Svartorm
5/17/08 8:01:50PM

Posted by seanfu
keep in mind that the question posed was whether the guard was an effective defensive weapon and Diaz to a beating in that fight (as Noguirea is known for) before slapping on the sub for the win..




The entirety of that fight took place outside of the guard. Once it hit the guard, it was over. I strongly feel that its the fact people run through their training to get into the cage and miss out on the solid BJJ fundementals that guys like Diaz (both), Silva, Condit, and many others have worked towards.
jiujitsufreak74
5/17/08 9:01:38PM
guard is not obsolete. i 100% agree with Svatorm and Jackelope. Just from recent examples, look at Demain Maia, Jason Day, Shinya Aoki, Nate Diaz, Big Nog, Frank Mir, Gregard Mousasi and Little Crop Cop. there are so many submissions such as armbars, triangles, gogos, omoplatas and shoulder locks not to mention the plethora of leg locks. it is more a problem of how the guard is taught. it seems a lot of wrestlers are picking up the guard as a way to weather the storm off of their backs and only use it to avoid strikes, but the BJJ guys and submission fighters are still using it effectively. it is very dangerous to be in a guard of a JJ practitioner and many times the fight is over once it gets there. so the answer to your question is absolutely not as any fighters still take full advantage of the guard.
Jackelope
5/18/08 3:15:26AM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

guard is not obsolete. i 100% agree with Svatorm and Jackelope. Just from recent examples, look at Demain Maia, Jason Day, Shinya Aoki, Nate Diaz, Big Nog, Frank Mir, Gregard Mousasi and Little Crop Cop. there are so many submissions such as armbars, triangles, gogos, omoplatas and shoulder locks not to mention the plethora of leg locks. it is more a problem of how the guard is taught. it seems a lot of wrestlers are picking up the guard as a way to weather the storm off of their backs and only use it to avoid strikes, but the BJJ guys and submission fighters are still using it effectively. it is very dangerous to be in a guard of a JJ practitioner and many times the fight is over once it gets there. so the answer to your question is absolutely not as any fighters still take full advantage of the guard.



I can't believe I didn't mention Aoki. Aoki is by far the best example. Look at the guy's physical stature- he's nothing in comparison to many of the people he fights. If you saw Shinya Aoki walking on the street and you didn't know who he was you wouldn't think twice about whether or not you would fight him. (compared to a guy like Kawajiri, JZ, Hansen, etc. etc.) Yet, he reigns as one of the supreme in a division full of guys like Kawajiri, JZ, Hansen, etc. etc. because though he may appear weaker he has a very well developed skillset that he knows how to use. With Aoki that skillset is mostly his guard that has carried him to this point in his career.

As for the Pellegrino/Diaz fight Pellegrino was tooling Diaz up the entire fight until about 10 secs after it hit the guard. From there it was over quickfast in a hurry and in the complete opposite direction.

More power to anybody who thinks the guard is ineffective. They can make the same mistakes all these other guys have made.
seanfu
5/18/08 11:32:55AM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by seanfu
keep in mind that the question posed was whether the guard was an effective defensive weapon and Diaz to a beating in that fight (as Noguirea is known for) before slapping on the sub for the win..




The entirety of that fight took place outside of the guard. Once it hit the guard, it was over. I strongly feel that its the fact people run through their training to get into the cage and miss out on the solid BJJ fundementals that guys like Diaz (both), Silva, Condit, and many others have worked towards.



But the guard kept getting passed. That's the part I ws talking about, but either way. I just think that the days of a bottom person having an advantage over a top person are just about gone.

All these kids are coming in with no distinct weaknesses and in the amatures I've seen an emphasis on jiu jitsu (in the rules you can't strike the bottom guy in the head) So I just don't see it being a deciding factor in a fight.
jiujitsufreak74
5/18/08 3:09:53PM

Posted by seanfu


Posted by Svartorm


Posted by seanfu
keep in mind that the question posed was whether the guard was an effective defensive weapon and Diaz to a beating in that fight (as Noguirea is known for) before slapping on the sub for the win..




The entirety of that fight took place outside of the guard. Once it hit the guard, it was over. I strongly feel that its the fact people run through their training to get into the cage and miss out on the solid BJJ fundementals that guys like Diaz (both), Silva, Condit, and many others have worked towards.



But the guard kept getting passed. That's the part I ws talking about, but either way. I just think that the days of a bottom person having an advantage over a top person are just about gone.

All these kids are coming in with no distinct weaknesses and in the amatures I've seen an emphasis on jiu jitsu (in the rules you can't strike the bottom guy in the head) So I just don't see it being a deciding factor in a fight.



we just listed recent examples of people who do have an advantage from the bottom...and add Roger Gracie and Jorge Santiago to that list as well. and a lot of today's JJ is being taught for MMA rules. and you used Diaz again...when in fact the moment it hit guard he had the advantage and was able to win. look at his older brother as well, as soon as Gomi hit his guard, he had the advantage and won by Gogoplata. Werdum is another fighter who shows that the guard gives you an advantage because look how GG avoided getting into his. i just don't see how you can still say that it no longer gives bottom guys an advantage when there are so many examples proving the contrary.
The-Don
5/18/08 3:39:52PM
well after reading alot of these posts.. I am still gonna keep training my gaurd for something more then just buying time... which is good cause I ahve always felt comfortable there....
ncordless
5/18/08 3:44:32PM
No. Absolutely not. What other position would replace it? For something to become obsolete there has to be no need for it anymore or to be replaced by something better. "Guard" and it's variations will always be the best bottom position you can be in by definition, and as such will never be obsolete.

Some fighters' guard is not very good, and that may make it seem ineffective... but what would that fighter have done if he hadn't pulled guard? Work from mount or side control? Give up his back? Those are not better options.


No disrespect to TS, but this is kind of a silly topic really.