Is Funky Ben Askren a top 10 Welterweight?

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hashyandy4
4/10/11 4:35:23PM
So after last nights action i need to update my WW rankings.
Before the fights i had Daley at 10 at Ben not in the top 10. Do i make the switch?
kingsmasher
4/10/11 5:07:12PM
I said on other post he would beat GSP....not beat him but dominate him....I don't care who it is Askren is years beyond anyone in the division with his wrestling alone....he will win...i said it would take a guy like Aoki Jiu Jitsu to get him when he makes one of his goofy transitions...but theres nobody quick enough or strong enough in the division...anyone has a shot to beat him by connecting when he goes for takedown...But if they don't connect I will bet Askren against anyone...
hashyandy4
4/10/11 5:50:37PM

I said on other post he would beat GSP....not beat him but dominate him....I don't care who it is Askren is years beyond anyone in the division with his wrestling alone....he will win...i said it would take a guy like Aoki Jiu Jitsu to get him when he makes one of his goofy transitions...but theres nobody quick enough or strong enough in the division...anyone has a shot to beat him by connecting when he goes for takedown...But if they don't connect I will bet Askren against anyone...

I don't know about that GSP stuff, but in my new rankings i got ben at 9, bumping daley out and diego at the 10 spot.
postman
4/10/11 6:12:17PM
I don't know he really hasn't even fought a top 15 guy yet IMO. He has some real good wins and is taking a great path but this GSP talk is insane IMO at this point.
sclasclemski
4/10/11 6:17:26PM
I dont understand the concept of a guy dropping in the rankings when they lose to someone ranked higher than they are...I mean to me that merely means your ranking was probably fairly accurate to begin with...until Ben beats someone currently in the top ten I wont be putting him in there...now having said that I think were he to fight Semtex, assuming he can shoot at will and not get caught with one of those massive punches then Funky wins all day...but until it happens I will leave him out for now.
Budgellism
4/10/11 6:23:56PM

Posted by sclasclemski

I dont understand the concept of a guy dropping in the rankings when they lose to someone ranked higher than they are...I mean to me that merely means your ranking was probably fairly accurate to begin with...until Ben beats someone currently in the top ten I wont be putting him in there...now having said that I think were he to fight Semtex, assuming he can shoot at will and not get caught with one of those massive punches then Funky wins all day...but until it happens I will leave him out for now.



Couldn't have said it better myself
kingsmasher
4/10/11 6:36:15PM

Posted by postman

I don't know he really hasn't even fought a top 15 guy yet IMO. He has some real good wins and is taking a great path but this GSP talk is insane IMO at this point.




it sounds insane I know but this guys wrestling is out of this world just check his college career....and it looked like a man against a boy seriously.....

Wrestling is the dominant factor in winning these days and rightfully so...
kingsmasher
4/10/11 6:45:38PM

Posted by postman

I don't know he really hasn't even fought a top 15 guy yet IMO. He has some real good wins and is taking a great path but this GSP talk is insane IMO at this point.



Whats crazy about Askren is his takedowns are fantastic and top control....then doesn't just lay on top...I wasn't taht up on him because he was such a wrestler but I see a huge improvement and sky the limit and if you need a reminder of how far wrestling can take u in MMA...Look at each division champ....all are great wrestlers...Aldo will get beat by one....if they wrestle and don't try to stand...Sonnen will eventually get the belt likely and Anderson Silva will say he just wasnt feeling it anymore...
postman
4/11/11 7:49:49AM
Not one of the current champs is simply a pure wrestler all of them have very well rounded skill sets and to be honest other then GSP they are all using their striking to win fights. Askren just hasn't fought anyone that would come close to hanging with the UFC's WWs. I know sky is the limit for the kid and now going to work with Ruffus he will be a beast.
kingsmasher
4/11/11 8:57:01AM

Posted by postman

Not one of the current champs is simply a pure wrestler all of them have very well rounded skill sets and to be honest other then GSP they are all using their striking to win fights. Askren just hasn't fought anyone that would come close to hanging with the UFC's WWs. I know sky is the limit for the kid and now going to work with Ruffus he will be a beast.



Only one fighter I know is a pure wrestler and Thats Fitch if you want to be a stickler...Hes number two in WW division


Theres a post from someone that was pinned about past champions and how dominate they were...in closing Matt Hughes was declared the best ever and Silva potentially passing...I think Jon Jones will get there..Silva I am not so sure love to see a rematch with Chael soon..

Read up on who Ben Askren is and his younger brother is a National champion too..There is alot of guys who make all american in wrestling...But he outshines those guys...

I would Bet on Ben Askren to beat GSP even if GSP started on top in half guard..And in all honesty GSP hasnt been very dominating as of late..Koscheck reversed him and took him down...GSP sets up takedowns wonderfully but he will get dragged to the ground by Askren plain and simple and not want to be there..

Im not a Ben Askren fan but I recognize hes just on another level...read what Nick Thompson said about Askren...Hes been in 50 something fights and said hes never felt like that before in his life...Being dominated and hes fought a lot of guys..

The only problem I see for Askren is getting in the UFC while holding a Bellator belt...might be contract issues..
grappler0000
4/11/11 10:09:02AM

Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by postman

Not one of the current champs is simply a pure wrestler all of them have very well rounded skill sets and to be honest other then GSP they are all using their striking to win fights. Askren just hasn't fought anyone that would come close to hanging with the UFC's WWs. I know sky is the limit for the kid and now going to work with Ruffus he will be a beast.



Only one fighter I know is a pure wrestler and Thats Fitch if you want to be a stickler...Hes number two in WW division


Theres a post from someone that was pinned about past champions and how dominate they were...in closing Matt Hughes was declared the best ever and Silva potentially passing...I think Jon Jones will get there..Silva I am not so sure love to see a rematch with Chael soon..

Read up on who Ben Askren is and his younger brother is a National champion too..There is alot of guys who make all american in wrestling...But he outshines those guys...

I would Bet on Ben Askren to beat GSP even if GSP started on top in half guard..And in all honesty GSP hasnt been very dominating as of late..Koscheck reversed him and took him down...GSP sets up takedowns wonderfully but he will get dragged to the ground by Askren plain and simple and not want to be there..

Im not a Ben Askren fan but I recognize hes just on another level...read what Nick Thompson said about Askren...Hes been in 50 something fights and said hes never felt like that before in his life...Being dominated and hes fought a lot of guys..

The only problem I see for Askren is getting in the UFC while holding a Bellator belt...might be contract issues..



1. Fitch is not a pure wrestler

2. To say that he could score a TD on GSP and to dominate him are two completely different things. We'll talk a few years down the road, but it's gullible IMO to believe so at this point. We've seen other guys at his level before. He's not the first. See Joe Warren as an example...and he's actually a notch above Ben. He faced tougher competition than Askren and tasted defeat as a result. I have no doubt he will have tremendous success, but until he is tested, I don't see any reason to say that he'll crush one of the top 2 P4P fighters in the sport.
postman
4/11/11 10:38:22PM

Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by postman

Not one of the current champs is simply a pure wrestler all of them have very well rounded skill sets and to be honest other then GSP they are all using their striking to win fights. Askren just hasn't fought anyone that would come close to hanging with the UFC's WWs. I know sky is the limit for the kid and now going to work with Ruffus he will be a beast.



Only one fighter I know is a pure wrestler and Thats Fitch if you want to be a stickler...Hes number two in WW division


Theres a post from someone that was pinned about past champions and how dominate they were...in closing Matt Hughes was declared the best ever and Silva potentially passing...I think Jon Jones will get there..Silva I am not so sure love to see a rematch with Chael soon..

Read up on who Ben Askren is and his younger brother is a National champion too..There is alot of guys who make all american in wrestling...But he outshines those guys...

I would Bet on Ben Askren to beat GSP even if GSP started on top in half guard..And in all honesty GSP hasnt been very dominating as of late..Koscheck reversed him and took him down...GSP sets up takedowns wonderfully but he will get dragged to the ground by Askren plain and simple and not want to be there..

Im not a Ben Askren fan but I recognize hes just on another level...read what Nick Thompson said about Askren...Hes been in 50 something fights and said hes never felt like that before in his life...Being dominated and hes fought a lot of guys..

The only problem I see for Askren is getting in the UFC while holding a Bellator belt...might be contract issues..


I know all about Askrens wrestling and agree it is great. There is no way Ben sweeps GSP and I really don't think he would get him to the ground. Alot of people forget GSP trains his wrestling with the canadian olympic team. Not to mention GSP would tool him on the feet I really at this point think GSP would finish Askren.
ncordless
4/12/11 12:17:22AM

Posted by postman


Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by postman

Not one of the current champs is simply a pure wrestler all of them have very well rounded skill sets and to be honest other then GSP they are all using their striking to win fights. Askren just hasn't fought anyone that would come close to hanging with the UFC's WWs. I know sky is the limit for the kid and now going to work with Ruffus he will be a beast.



Only one fighter I know is a pure wrestler and Thats Fitch if you want to be a stickler...Hes number two in WW division


Theres a post from someone that was pinned about past champions and how dominate they were...in closing Matt Hughes was declared the best ever and Silva potentially passing...I think Jon Jones will get there..Silva I am not so sure love to see a rematch with Chael soon..

Read up on who Ben Askren is and his younger brother is a National champion too..There is alot of guys who make all american in wrestling...But he outshines those guys...

I would Bet on Ben Askren to beat GSP even if GSP started on top in half guard..And in all honesty GSP hasnt been very dominating as of late..Koscheck reversed him and took him down...GSP sets up takedowns wonderfully but he will get dragged to the ground by Askren plain and simple and not want to be there..

Im not a Ben Askren fan but I recognize hes just on another level...read what Nick Thompson said about Askren...Hes been in 50 something fights and said hes never felt like that before in his life...Being dominated and hes fought a lot of guys..

The only problem I see for Askren is getting in the UFC while holding a Bellator belt...might be contract issues..


I know all about Askrens wrestling and agree it is great. There is no way Ben sweeps GSP and I really don't think he would get him to the ground. Alot of people forget GSP trains his wrestling with the canadian olympic team. Not to mention GSP would tool him on the feet I really at this point think GSP would finish Askren.



IF GSP went to the ground with Askren, even on top, he would get swept. Askren might not be able to keep him down, and I don't think Askren would have an easy time getting GSP down, but if it got to that position i have very little doubt that Askren could outscramble GSP all day. Sure GSP trains with the Canadian Olympic team, but Ben Askren is a member of the US Olympic team.

Speaking of Olympic wrestling, I have always thought that international freestyle rules were really bad for Askren. Freestyle is all about the takedowns, and doesn't include near as much post-takedown action as collegiate, or folkstyle wrestling. Askren's real strength has always been what happens after the takedown, and I am kind of srprised that he was able to compete well enough in the freestyle world to earn an Olympic bid in '08.

I think the interesting thing with Askren has always been how a wrestling game like his would transfer over to MMA. I'd say many fighters have as good if not better takedowns as him, but there has never been anyone with near the chain wrestling and scrambling ability of him. It was amazing to watch him always end up on top against the best wrestlers in the country in college, and so far in MMA he has shown that his style can transfer over to MMA success.

Ben Askren is a unique talent as a wrestler, and while he might never develop the striking to reach the top, anyone who goes to the ground with him, even into advanced positions, is going to end up on bottom for a while. Askren's ability to anticipate his opponent's moves and sense of weight and balance on the mat are unmatched in MMA.
grappler0000
4/12/11 2:30:59AM

Posted by ncordless

Speaking of Olympic wrestling, I have always thought that international freestyle rules were really bad for Askren. Freestyle is all about the takedowns, and doesn't include near as much post-takedown action as collegiate, or folkstyle wrestling. Askren's real strength has always been what happens after the takedown, and I am kind of srprised that he was able to compete well enough in the freestyle world to earn an Olympic bid in '08.



Just about every folkstyle wrestler worth his weight in skittles also trains and competes in freestyle. I'm a bit curious why everyone seems to assume that Askren was the exception to the rule.
postman
4/12/11 9:17:40AM
We can specualte all day but I can tell you this he went to a dec with Ryan Thomas, Dan Hornbuckle, Lyman Good, and Nick Thompson. Nick Thompson decided he was getting out of the sport after the fight, that tells me he isn't at the top of his game anymore. None of those fighters are UFC talent maybe Hornbuckle but thats it. Now I'm suposed to belive that Askren is going to beat GSP who IMO is the P4P best fighter in the world? Sorry not right now.
AchillesHeel
4/12/11 9:51:50AM
Here's Ben Askren training with Jake Shields (on YouTube), in advance of Shields' title fight with GSP.

EDIT: It says it was posted on 26 October of last year.
postman
4/12/11 12:09:52PM

Posted by AchillesHeel

Here's Ben Askren training with Jake Shields (on YouTube), in advance of Shields' title fight with GSP.

EDIT: It says it was posted on 26 October of last year.



Intresting all thats missing is that missle of a jab that GSP owns
ncordless
4/12/11 1:10:28PM

Posted by grappler0000


Posted by ncordless

Speaking of Olympic wrestling, I have always thought that international freestyle rules were really bad for Askren. Freestyle is all about the takedowns, and doesn't include near as much post-takedown action as collegiate, or folkstyle wrestling. Askren's real strength has always been what happens after the takedown, and I am kind of srprised that he was able to compete well enough in the freestyle world to earn an Olympic bid in '08.



Just about every folkstyle wrestler worth his weight in skittles also trains and competes in freestyle. I'm a bit curious why everyone seems to assume that Askren was the exception to the rule.



You misunderstand. It isn't that Askren didn't train freestyle, it is that what he is good at fits within the rules of folkstyle much better than freestyle.
grappler0000
4/12/11 3:05:20PM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by grappler0000


Posted by ncordless

Speaking of Olympic wrestling, I have always thought that international freestyle rules were really bad for Askren. Freestyle is all about the takedowns, and doesn't include near as much post-takedown action as collegiate, or folkstyle wrestling. Askren's real strength has always been what happens after the takedown, and I am kind of srprised that he was able to compete well enough in the freestyle world to earn an Olympic bid in '08.



Just about every folkstyle wrestler worth his weight in skittles also trains and competes in freestyle. I'm a bit curious why everyone seems to assume that Askren was the exception to the rule.



You misunderstand. It isn't that Askren didn't train freestyle, it is that what he is good at fits within the rules of folkstyle much better than freestyle.



I see. I saw someone else make a very similar statement recently, so I guess I assumed the sentiment was the same.

Back to the original topic though...I do agree with your statement for the most part. However, I would like to add that from my experience, the guys who were good enough and creative enough on the ground in freestyle, were the ones winning at the higher levels. At a certain level of competition, similar to that of collegiate wrestling, the takedowns are very even. Many times it's so even that riding time makes the difference in those matches. In freestyle, when one guy is able to score exposure points, when the other isn't, it seems to be that same sort of tie breaker. I know what you're saying though. The window of opportunity on the ground is smaller in freestyle, but I think that's why someone who excels on the ground would be able to reap the benefits. Obviously, the objectives and maneuvers vary between the two, so it's hard to make an even comparison...so, while I agree with your assessment, I think the actual ground game "can" be equally important, just for different reasons.
Aether
4/14/11 9:03:58PM
I don't see how you can rank the guy top10 when he hasn't fought anyone anywhere close to being top 10 or even top 20

we've seen a million times that being good at pure wrestling is not the same as being good at wrestling in MMA. Your stance is totally different, you need to worry about getting kicked and punched in the face when you shoot in, and you need some degree of striking ability to be able to set your takedowns up. Look at a guy like Mark Munoz who is a phenomenal wrestler, but when he entered the sport he was pretty much telegraphing takedown attempts by diving in from 5 feet away. He had to develop other aspects of his MMA arsenal before he could really even put his wrestling to use.

I'm not saying that Askren's striking is as bad as Munoz's was (Munoz had some of the worst striking in the UFC when he started out IMO) but the point is that the fact that he's an olympic level wrestler doesn't automatically mean he can wrestle at an olympic level inside of the octagon against someone like GSP who will jab his face into oblivion if he telegraphs any of his takedown attempts.

He's also showing an inability to finish guys who are not exactly known to be iron-jawed. This is a massive disadvantage at the highest levels, as it means that he has to avoid having his striking and submission defense exploited for 15-25 minutes by world-class, well-rounded fighters. It's also worth nothing that Nick Thompson hasn't won a fight in nearly 2 and a half years, has been finished in every single one of his losses, and Askren wasn't able to put him away. I have a really hard time seeing how you can bump his ranking up based on taking a guy who was literally in the last fight of his career at the end of a 2 year losing streak to a decision.
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