Freddie Roach: The UFC is using James Toney to prove MMA fighters are better than boxers

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » General MMA Talk » Freddie Roach: The UFC is using James Toney to prove MMA fighters are better than boxers
POLL: Is Roach right?
Hell, yeah! 45% (10)
Nope 23% (5)
Spinning, back, check kick 32% (7)
SmileR
3/11/10 5:01:58PM
"I think they're using James as a way to say MMA fighters are better than boxers. If he fights a quality ground guy, once he goes to the ground he's gonna get killed. But If a guy chooses to stand up with James, James is gonna destroy him. That’s why they call him 'Lights Out.' I really don’t think there’s one fighter in MMA that could stand with James."

Link
seanfu
3/11/10 5:48:48PM
Lyoto, BJ, Anderson, GSP, what do these fighters have in common, they would all kick James Toney's ass standing.
Jackelope
3/11/10 6:01:24PM
I honestly agree with Roach about the standup department. And about the ground game, too.

So really.. what is his point? I don't think they're using Toney for anything. He's the one that signed on the dotted line. He's not stupid- he knows what is at stake. Boxers talk a lot of noise and now they're given the chance to prove whether their style is superior or not. What is the problem????
NatedawgThaM
3/11/10 6:05:02PM
Obviously 99% accurate except I don't think that's Dana's intentions. I'm pretty sure it's a good way to make money and plus boxers have been knocking on our sport for the longest time so it's time to see if they can really back up all that talk.



Posted by seanfu

Lyoto, BJ, Anderson, GSP, what do these fighters have in common, they would all kick James Toney's ass standing.



IMO no way. Anderson definitely has the best shot because he's more versatile wth kicks and knees. GSP's biggest striking advantage is the threat you have to watch out for his amazing takedowns at all times so it takes away from your striking IMO. But if Toney didn't have to worry about the takedowns and if he was at the weight I think he could take him. Lyoto would be interesting as he likes to work from a distance and boxing has alot to do with distance so I don't wanna say anything about that. BUt I'm pretty confident if anybody throws hands with Toney he's getting dropped. His only downside IMO is that philly shell, it won't work that well against a more versatile striker with kicks and knees.
seanfu
3/11/10 6:19:57PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Obviously 99% accurate except I don't think that's Dana's intentions. I'm pretty sure it's a good way to make money and plus boxers have been knocking on our sport for the longest time so it's time to see if they can really back up all that talk.



Posted by seanfu

Lyoto, BJ, Anderson, GSP, what do these fighters have in common, they would all kick James Toney's ass standing.



IMO no way. Anderson definitely has the best shot because he's more versatile wth kicks and knees. GSP's biggest striking advantage is the threat you have to watch out for his amazing takedowns at all times so it takes away from your striking IMO. But if Toney didn't have to worry about the takedowns and if he was at the weight I think he could take him. Lyoto would be interesting as he likes to work from a distance and boxing has alot to do with distance so I don't wanna say anything about that. BUt I'm pretty confident if anybody throws hands with Toney he's getting dropped. His only downside IMO is that philly shell, it won't work that well against a more versatile striker with kicks and knees.



aggressive Toney's a beast. But the philly shell doesn't work in mma period.
bojangalz
3/11/10 6:37:13PM
Funny... I thought they were using him to make money.
Pookie
3/11/10 6:51:56PM
Anybody 205 or higher with good kicks would probably break him down, and work they're ways up.
haggiswashere
3/11/10 7:41:14PM

Posted by seanfu

Lyoto, BJ, Anderson, GSP, what do these fighters have in common, they would all kick James Toney's ass standing.



If he fights any of those I will av bet you that he will knock any of them out if they stand. The only on I could see standing even the slightest chance would be Machida. and thats a maybe.
jae_1833
3/11/10 8:57:23PM
I think any MW or higher with decent stand up skills will surprise the world and show every one that pure Boxers don't belong in a cage......by KOing Toney without taking it to the ground! Go ahead and flame me but if you all don't think Hendo hits hard enough or has enough skills to land a solid one on Toney then I think you are sadly mistaken. I'd bet on Belcher in a fight against Toney based on the simple principle of the rules allowing for kicks of all kinds. There is just no way a 40+ old boxer is going to not get kicked in the legs ribs and head. He doesn't know what to do against them and that is going to be extremely obvious and problematic very early on in the fight. I just think that if a boxer wants to come into MMA then he shoud do it early on in his career and use boxing as one of his base fightings styles like Chris Lytle and Marcus Davis did.
postman
3/11/10 10:42:36PM

Posted by jae_1833

I think any MW or higher with decent stand up skills will surprise the world and show every one that pure Boxers don't belong in a cage......by KOing Toney without taking it to the ground! Go ahead and flame me but if you all don't think Hendo hits hard enough or has enough skills to land a solid one on Toney then I think you are sadly mistaken. I'd bet on Belcher in a fight against Toney based on the simple principle of the rules allowing for kicks of all kinds. There is just no way a 40+ old boxer is going to not get kicked in the legs ribs and head. He doesn't know what to do against them and that is going to be extremely obvious and problematic very early on in the fight. I just think that if a boxer wants to come into MMA then he shoud do it early on in his career and use boxing as one of his base fightings styles like Chris Lytle and Marcus Davis did.



Sorry Hendo would get smashed if he tried to stand with Toney. If not then Hendo would be a boxer. Hendo dosn't kick much and unless your talking about working in the clinch or on the ground Heno would get knocked out. Look at what anderson did to him on the feet. By the way Hendo is my fav fighter butg i got to call them as I see em.
Taylor8766
3/11/10 11:50:40PM
I agree and disagree, IMO the UFC is using Toney to bring out more boxers like Maywheather, Hatton, Jones Jr etc. to try their hand at MMA. Now to be honest I think Toney could handle himself very well in the stand-up against some of the top strikers, guys like Silva, Liddell, Machida, SHogun, Cro Cop etc., I mean of course he wont have the kicking power at all, but hes a straight up brawler good chin and power strikes and Im sure his speed is decent. Im not saying he would beat the top guys in MMA or even have a shot at them, but he does have a very god chance at beating guys like Kimbo, Coleman, Fedor(JUST KIDDING), but seriously he has a decent shot at getting some nice KO's and a decent future in MMA, but I dont see him making a run for the title any time soon.
kopower
3/12/10 12:26:12AM
I say lets have a best of 3. First fight is in the cage, second is in the boxing ring, third is a potato sack race.

I would actually like to see A. Silva and Toney go at it under boxing rules. The one catch would be to use the 4 oz gloves. Let us see how his chin holds up then.
jae_1833
3/12/10 2:51:51PM

Posted by postman

Sorry Hendo would get smashed if he tried to stand with Toney. If not then Hendo would be a boxer. Hendo dosn't kick much and unless your talking about working in the clinch or on the ground Heno would get knocked out. Look at what anderson did to him on the feet. By the way Hendo is my fav fighter butg i got to call them as I see em.



I guess Hendo was a bad example when it comes to versatility, but certainly not for KO Power....I just think that the versatility of the striking game that is in MMA will prove to be too much for a purebred boxer.
cmill21
3/12/10 4:52:09PM
You guys are crazy. Anderson and BJ look great against guys who have trained boxing mixed in with other things, they do not face guys like Toney or Buakaw on the reg. It's a different game, mma fighters stand with these guys and they go down, thats the way it plays out for the most part. I can't believe how arrogant mma fans have become. MMA hasn't come so far that the JJ guys have passed the pure JJ guys outside of it, and the stand up has definetly not come to the level of K-1 and boxing, sorry boys.
CwB
3/12/10 7:13:46PM

Posted by Pookie

Anybody 205 or higher with good kicks would probably break him down, and work they're ways up.



Exactly what I was thinking... Chop his legs until the head kick opens up.
BustedKnuckle
3/12/10 11:08:46PM
I picked spinning back check kick....although i am pretty sure the quote is " Side Check Kick" Toney is a set up for Dana to dump on boxing. Toney is a former champ(yet out of the game) and is setting him up for destruction. He is willing to fight anyone the UFC throws at him. His arrogance will be his downfall. Toney could dispatch easier fighters but will most likely go after the most lucrative$$$$$$ fights. Against top competition he wil fail. The top HW guys are primarily grapplers that would kill him. LHW ...ehh I think Machidas counter strikes and use of Sumo to win rounds with TD's could win him a UD over Toney
jae_1833
3/13/10 1:59:57PM

Posted by cmill21

You guys are crazy. Anderson and BJ look great against guys who have trained boxing mixed in with other things, they do not face guys like Toney or Buakaw on the reg. It's a different game, mma fighters stand with these guys and they go down, thats the way it plays out for the most part. I can't believe how arrogant mma fans have become. MMA hasn't come so far that the JJ guys have passed the pure JJ guys outside of it, and the stand up has definetly not come to the level of K-1 and boxing, sorry boys.


I don't think we are arrogant nor ignorant of what Toney brings to the game, quite the contrary.....it's what he doesn't bring to the game. He's going to get owned because no one is going to box Toney in an MMA match, nobody with half a brain at least. They are going to kick him, take him down, or demolish him in the clinch. There is just too many aspects of the game for a single skilled fighter to be successful these days. It's not like he's been training MMA for years now and there is just too much for him to learn at this stage IMO.
mrsmiley
3/13/10 2:16:31PM
I would say Anderson would demolish him standing,but I don't know about GSP or Machida.
jarod1005
3/18/10 5:19:34PM
Well, first off, Toney is 41 years old. That being stated, he would still beat any MMA fighter standing. The ground will be difficult unless he has some well-rounded takedown defense skills. You see, this is what happens when you are no longer a threat in pro boxing; enter MMA. I love MMA, but seriously, in order to be taken as a legit sport, you cannot have just any person jumping ship. It does not make sense. Boxing would never allow this. Period!

You will never see a young top ten pro boxer in MMA, because simply, the economics of boxing are still stronger; they will make more money in the ring verses the cage. Only when the fighter is long in the tooth, and a former shell of what he once was, does he enter the MMA world. Toney will not apply the time and work to learn ground fighting skills.

I mean, look at Herschel Walker. He is 47, albeit in good shape, but he would never get a chance to enter a pro boxing ring. Butterbean? Please! All of the boxers of have fought in MMA in recent years were not top 10 caliber.

If MMA, especially the UFC, would like to continue more widespread success, instead of a farsical comedy, then they need to only offer contracts to the best fighters whether they are (top 10 pro) boxers or wrestlers.

Let's keep it real.
Pookie
3/18/10 7:11:10PM

Posted by jarod1005

Well, first off, Toney is 41 years old. That being stated, he would still beat any MMA fighter standing. The ground will be difficult unless he has some well-rounded takedown defense skills. You see, this is what happens when you are no longer a threat in pro boxing; enter MMA. I love MMA, but seriously, in order to be taken as a legit sport, you cannot have just any person jumping ship. It does not make sense. Boxing would never allow this. Period!





Umm... you know that Toney is going back and forth between the two, proving your assertion that boxing would never do this to be totally inaccurate and a complete assumption.

Secondly, Do you not remember Roy Jones trying to secure Anderson Silva for a boxing match?


Pookie
3/18/10 7:13:11PM

Posted by cmill21

You guys are crazy. Anderson and BJ look great against guys who have trained boxing mixed in with other things, they do not face guys like Toney or Buakaw on the reg. It's a different game, mma fighters stand with these guys and they go down, thats the way it plays out for the most part. I can't believe how arrogant mma fans have become. MMA hasn't come so far that the JJ guys have passed the pure JJ guys outside of it, and the stand up has definetly not come to the level of K-1 and boxing, sorry boys.



But you must admit, If a boxer went over to k-1 the kicks would destroy their base and ultimately prove their attempts at crossing over futile.

Any top striker in MMA with kicks will be able to do the exact same thing to any boxer/person who doesnt know how to check a kick.
jiujitsufreak74
3/18/10 7:43:49PM
the UFC signed Toney to shut him up. yes he is a good fighter, one of the greatest boxers to ever compete, but at the end of the day Toney was doing more damage out of the UFC than he was in the UFC. all his bitching about Dana, the UFC and MMA in general was put to a stop as soon as he was signed. it was a win-in for the UFC; it got Toney to shut up, plus it provides some very itneresting match ups that will gain a lot of viewers
jarod1005
3/19/10 11:02:17AM




Umm... you know that Toney is going back and forth between the two, proving your assertion that boxing would never do this to be totally inaccurate and a complete assumption.

Secondly, Do you not remember Roy Jones trying to secure Anderson Silva for a boxing match?


Again, Toney is doing this because their is no more room for him in boxing. He can't even get a fight with one of the Klitschoko brothers. No one in the U.S. wants to see them fight either. This is the main reason for the majority of their last several fights being staged in Europe. They are not a draw in Vegas; if so, they would have fought someone by now, there.

Yep, I do remember thatJones and Silva wanted to go at it in a boxing ring. But again, this was just a few years ago. Jones is waaaaaaaay past his good day. No names have beaten him since 2004. I mentioned if a pro boxer were in their respected prime years, then, they would not have an interest in MMA and/or a boxing bout with an MMA fighter (i.e. Silva).

If Toney is fighting in MMA today, it is because he cannot make any money in boxing; he is no longer a draw. If Toney were 24 years old, he would not have had an interest in the UFC.

If he is willing to learn some takedown defense, then he will be okay. But if he is just going to stand in there and expect for a fighter to not take him down, then he will have a much difficult time. He may need 1-1.5 years of takedown defense training with top-notch wrestlers before stepping into the cage to be a legitimate threat to anyone.
Jackelope
3/19/10 1:35:10PM

Posted by jarod1005




He can't even get a fight with one of the Klitschoko brothers.



LOL you make it sound like getting a fight with the champs should be easy. That's the exact equivalent of saying "He can't even get a fight with Brock Lesnar"

Anyways, I don't totally disagree with all of your points but you can't expect a comment like this to be taken seriously.
jarod1005
3/19/10 4:29:33PM
It has to be taken seriously. How long has Toney been around? Also, I believe that Emanuel Steward once said that he did not want to be apart of a James Toney vs. Wladimir Klitschoko bout. The Klitschoko's fights are predominantly stage in another continent for good reason. There is no draw for them in Vegas; hence, no PPV. The Klitschoko fights are on ("free") HBO. There is no money to be made with them. This is one of the main why boxing is receding. Boxing does not have an (American) heavyweight contender that the public wants to see.

At least, if Arum, or whomever promotes who, could set a bout between Toney and one of the Klitschoko's, then certainly, it would be PPV driven. But there is nothing there to be made of. If you cannot bring 'em to the gates to attract PPV, there is simply no interest. Hence, no money to be made. Do you think if Dana White put UFC 111, 112, 113,114, 115, 116, etc. and so on with the big name fighters on Spike TV, he could make real money? Hell no! He on occasion does it, but not too often in a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wladimir_Klitschko

The link will give an intinerary of the fights of Wladimir Klitschoko. Outside of a handfull in New York and a couple in Vegas, the majority or in Europe. I have seen the mass-majority of the fights...... and they were all on HBO.

James Toney has had more PPV fights in recent years than the Klitschoko's. The bottom line is that Toney should have already gotten a fight with the Klitschoko's when he fought at heavyweight.

If the promoters wanted to make the fight, they would have.
Pookie
3/19/10 7:38:54PM
But they didnt, because boxing is full of the political nonsense that you asserted boxing doesnt allow in your first post.

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