Frank Mir Vs Brock Lesnar

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SociopathX
4/27/09 9:25:37PM
In all honesty... Who do you think will win this fight?

I was checking the odds in some sportsbooks and Lesnar is the heavy favorite.

I thought Frank looked awesome vs Nog and also took it to Brock last fight with a sub win in just over a minute.


I think he wins this fight in another sub.

I know i'm jumping the gun a little as this fight isn't happening in like 4 months or something but wanted to see peoples thoughts.
Jackelope
4/27/09 9:45:40PM
Most people are going to say Brock. I want Mir to win, and I'm a fan of his, but I gotta admit I can see why people would pick Brock.

If Brock plays it smart and is able to land some of those heavy fists on the feet he can definitely take it. If he decides to play on the ground, well, he's still entering an area he's liable to find his defeat in.

Frank is big, so he should be able to do a bit more damage on the feet than Randy, but how is he going to nullify those power shots from Brock? Randy's gameplan was obviously to smother Brock to take away his power, but Randy is an olympic level Greco Roman wrestler, so he can handle Brock in the clinch. Can Frank? I don't know.

I'm hoping Frank takes this one, but I'm not so sure.
mentalcase
4/27/09 9:53:41PM
Brock will give more respect to Mir's ground game and may try to stand but Mir has decent stand up of his own Brock may instinctively go for a take down or Mir just need to get a hold of him and pull guard and the start working for a sub

the thing i love about Mir is his a finisher once he gets a holds of something he tries to rip it off or break it like his life depends on it
fizzle
4/27/09 11:40:28PM
Brock by TKO unless Mir gets a miracle sub.
Jackelope
4/28/09 12:19:11AM

Posted by fizzle

Brock by TKO unless Mir gets a miracle sub.



This, specifically, is something I take issue with. What is, and how in God's name does someone pull off a "miracle sub"? I could sort of, somehow, somewhat understand a "miracle KO" but a miracle sub? It doesn't even make sense. It's not like you throw up a rear naked choke on a prayer and someone steps into it or something.
monk111
4/28/09 12:43:55AM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by fizzle

Brock by TKO unless Mir gets a miracle sub.



This, specifically, is something I take issue with. What is, and how in God's name does someone pull off a "miracle sub"? I could sort of, somehow, somewhat understand a "miracle KO" but a miracle sub? It doesn't even make sense. It's not like you throw up a rear naked choke on a prayer and someone steps into it or something.



I TOTALLY AGREE It takes real skill and poise to be getting pounded and still come through with a submission like frank did. on topic though i think frank will b more ready for Brock this time and i would like to see Frank win. Brock will be a major factor in this sport someday cuz of the way he trains and he is pretty young and already has a hellacious wrestling background. Go Frank!
Franklinfan47
4/28/09 12:56:55AM
I'm going with Lesnar by tko as well, though this fight worries me. Mir showed some dangerous striking against Nog and his sub game has almost always been world class. Despite how the first fight went down, I agree that Lesnar will probably respect Mir's ground game more this time around and be able to get the tko. Either way, I dont see this fight going very long.
fizzle
4/28/09 2:04:16AM
I think you need to chill a bit i didn't mean that it requires any less skill, i used that term because i think that when you have a guy as big as Lesnar pounding you in the face, and if by use of your own SKILL and opportunity you get a submission, i only call this a miracle sub because while it takes skill, the opportunity has to be there, same for a miracle KO. If you're losing the entire fight and you happen to be in the right place at the right time, and use your skills to throw the right punch, i still consider that to be a miracle KO. I think i used the wrong term, but i also think you are barking up the wrong tree because i agree with you, i think my short post with lack of detail led me to be misconstrued in a way that was not intended.
fonduktoe
4/28/09 2:08:44AM
brock has had plenty of time to train how to keep his drumsticks out of leglocks
and i think people are overrating mir's standup when it was against a less than 100% minotauro
i still see this fight being another of brock's wins via being powerful
Jackelope
4/28/09 9:26:31AM

Posted by fizzle

I think you need to chill a bit i didn't mean that it requires any less skill, i used that term because i think that when you have a guy as big as Lesnar pounding you in the face, and if by use of your own SKILL and opportunity you get a submission, i only call this a miracle sub because while it takes skill, the opportunity has to be there, same for a miracle KO. If you're losing the entire fight and you happen to be in the right place at the right time, and use your skills to throw the right punch, i still consider that to be a miracle KO. I think i used the wrong term, but i also think you are barking up the wrong tree because i agree with you, i think my short post with lack of detail led me to be misconstrued in a way that was not intended.





I still don't understand why people say things like this. Sometimes you have to put yourself into a dangerous position in order to do your thing. It's a risk/reward type thing. I think when people say things like "miracle sub" or "miracle KO" they're insulting the fighters who have put in a TON of work to reach the level they're at.

I mean, can you possibly explain to me how a person like Frank Mir, who has been a martial artist his whole life, having fought in the UFC several times and even held the HW belt gets lucky when he's facing a guy who has a couple of MMA bouts?

It's insulting to Frank Mir for people to say things like "miracle sub". You may have chosen your words incorrectly (which is something apparently you're fond of doing) but the underlying sentiments of what you really mean are still there.

Let me ask you this- If someone was given 1 minute to beat on someone, and they did that but were unable to finish, how would they compare to a person who was given 5 seconds to beat on someone and they nearly broke their leg and in doing so finished the fight? The fact is, they both had their opportunities, and CLEARLY Frank Mir was more skilled and/or proficient at capitalizing on his opportunity. That is how you determine skill. It is creating or seizing opportunities, and capitalizing in either situation. Noguiera has been beaten to a bloody pulp so many times in his career, but all it ever took was his opponents making one mistake. Bang, he'd capitalize. Because he's got skill.

Brock has natural talent and ability, but the fact was at that time he had little to no MMA skill. His natural abilities placed him in an advantageous position to start the fight, but his lack of experience landed him in a position that he was beaten in. (which you would apparently attribute to Frank Mir's "miracle" luck)

Times have changed, though. I'm not so sure the fight will pan out the same this time around since Brock has obviously gained some experience and more skill this time around. If Frank did pull out the victory, though, the last thing I would call it is any form of luck. Unless a random meteorite crashed through the arena and onto Brock Lesnar.
Dragoslav
4/28/09 9:41:17AM
This is really a hard fight to call. Mir showed improved striking against Nog, who has great boxing skills. Though the first fight Brock never went for a takedown. He knocked Mir down with strikes, twice. Grats to Mir for showing great poise and working a submission through all that heat he was getting. However the fight was in real danger of getting stopped. Mir was hurt, no doubt about it. That knee-bar wasn't the tightest in the world either. Brock could possibly have rolled out of it. I remember screaming "ROLL ROLL ROLL" at the television.
KingCmb
4/28/09 10:28:25AM
i think mir takes based on him having faster hands and just more skilled standup brocks big but hes an arm puncher and i think frank can out box him then obvously when getting beat on the feet brock will go to what he know take frank down and get subbed

or i could be wrong and brock kos frank on a big shot i hope not but its a real chance
AchillesHeel
4/28/09 1:13:22PM
I'm also pulling for Mir. I expect this fight will happen mostly on the feet. I think both guys lost the fight on the ground the first time, in a manner of speaking. I don't think Mir will be able to take Lesnar down, and if Lesnar takes Mir down, I think he's playing into Mir's strength and would get submitted again. I think the best Lesnar could do on the ground is stall until he can get back to his feet (or until the referee stands them up).

One thing that I haven't seen in Lesnar's arsenal is kicks. I think he can afford to throw kicks more than Mir can, because of his wrestling advantage. Lesnar might have the edge in power, but I think he's already recognized that aggressiveness is less of an advantage with every successive fight, so I think it's unlikely he'll catch Mir the way he caught Heath Herring.

I think this will be a boxing match, with Lesnar the more likely to score a TKO and Mir more likely to win a Decision. I'm not sure yet which one I'll actually predict, but I'm leaning towards the latter right now.
fizzle
4/28/09 1:56:36PM
I think with everything, there needs to be opportunity as well the person in the fight needs to have skill, it is a marriage of both. If a JJ wizard is fighting a guy who is good at everything, for example, and is unable to secure the sub, i don't consider the guy having any less skill but never found himself in an OPPORTUNITY to finish, I consider this unlucky. I think that luck always has has a part to play in all sports, no matter what it is. I think that no matter what i say, im going to wrong to you and my point will not get across, so im just going to leave it at this. Though i don't appreciate you telling me for one reason or another that i am fond of choosing my words poorly. An opinion is an opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
tdietel01
4/28/09 2:00:32PM
I think a miracle sub is what happened the first fight. Brock was well on his wayh to winning the fight and stood up for some reason and gave mir his foot.

I dont see why everyone counts brock out on the ground, the last fight was mostly on the ground and lesnar was not in any kind of trouble until he gave him his foot. I think brocks wrestling nullifies mirs jj. he couldnt do anything last time while both were on the ground and he wont be able to this time
bjj1605
4/28/09 2:40:32PM
I see this fight a lot differently than most people. Brock got subbed easy last time and he won't be stupid. He's got heavy hands and he'll be able to dictate where the fight goes. I see his strategy as trying to stand with Mir and land a big right hand. That will be his down fall. Mir showed great striking against Nog and I think he'll outclass brock standing. All he has to do is not get knocked out and the fight is his. i think its actually a much closer fight on the mat. Mir has sick jits but brock is big and a good wrestler. I think he'll have improved his submission defense a lot and could eek out a lay and pray decision or maybe even a TKO from the top.

Still he won't wanna go there. Brock has wrestling and size while Mir has technique and experience. I for one will always go with the latter. Mir by 3rd round standing TKO
Jackelope
4/28/09 2:40:49PM

Posted by fizzle

I think with everything, there needs to be opportunity as well the person in the fight needs to have skill, it is a marriage of both. If a JJ wizard is fighting a guy who is good at everything, for example, and is unable to secure the sub, i don't consider the guy having any less skill but never found himself in an OPPORTUNITY to finish, I consider this unlucky. I think that luck always has has a part to play in all sports, no matter what it is. I think that no matter what i say, im going to wrong to you and my point will not get across, so im just going to leave it at this. Though i don't appreciate you telling me for one reason or another that i am fond of choosing my words poorly. An opinion is an opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Well for the record I never attacked you, I just defended any fighter who puts in incredible amounts of work as someone who would get "lucky". As for poking fun at your choice of words, I think most members here would agree that telling a mod to chill out and that he's "barking up the wrong tree" would constitute poorly chosen words.

Luck involves circumstances outside of your control. Like a meteorite crashing through the ceiling and KTFO'ing Lesnar.

Skill involves capitalizing on opportunities presented to you. Brock left his leg out there. Frank grabbed it and submitted him. That's skill. There is absolutely 0 room for logical argument to that. However, I am all ears and I encourage any response that would make an attempt.

P.S. the only real "luck" or "miracle" argument you could make involves the referee standing them up. So feel free to take that road if you wish

bjj1605
4/28/09 3:01:47PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by fizzle

I think with everything, there needs to be opportunity as well the person in the fight needs to have skill, it is a marriage of both. If a JJ wizard is fighting a guy who is good at everything, for example, and is unable to secure the sub, i don't consider the guy having any less skill but never found himself in an OPPORTUNITY to finish, I consider this unlucky. I think that luck always has has a part to play in all sports, no matter what it is. I think that no matter what i say, im going to wrong to you and my point will not get across, so im just going to leave it at this. Though i don't appreciate you telling me for one reason or another that i am fond of choosing my words poorly. An opinion is an opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Well for the record I never attacked you, I just defended any fighter who puts in incredible amounts of work as someone who would get "lucky". As for poking fun at your choice of words, I think most members here would agree that telling a mod to chill out and that he's "barking up the wrong tree" would constitute poorly chosen words.

Luck involves circumstances outside of your control. Like a meteorite crashing through the ceiling and KTFO'ing Lesnar.

Skill involves capitalizing on opportunities presented to you. Brock left his leg out there. Frank grabbed it and submitted him. That's skill. There is absolutely 0 room for logical argument to that. However, I am all ears and I encourage any response that would make an attempt.

P.S. the only real "luck" or "miracle" argument you could make involves the referee standing them up. So feel free to take that road if you wish




You know what Jackelope I completely disagree with you. There are miracle subs. In any case where Jesus himself jumps into the ring and slaps on a rear naked choke it is a miracle sub.

On a more serious no I don't think the term lucky punch or lucky sub make any sense. You meant to do it, you did it, and it worked. I think there is more room to claim that something was lucky punch but thats still pushing it. I've honestly never before heard lucky sub or miracle sub and I think the idea is as ludicrous as anything I've ever heard. If you take the time to trap a limb and apply a submission I don't see how it could be anything other then a planned and well executed maneuver with no room for luck at all.

To say he was lucky that brock left his leg in there makes less sense. That means brock was stupid or did something stupid. Not that frank was lucky. I'm not sure how this even became a discussion as it seems obvious that a lucky submission is practically an oxymoron. The very act of getting a submission seems to contradict the idea that it was lucky.
mrsmiley
4/28/09 3:07:23PM
I think I gotta go with Mir winning this.
I think Brock will be cautious about going back to the ground this time around and will work a little standup.
However,I see Mir's standup looking crisper and much faster.
I say Brock gets frustrated and makes a mistake sometime in the 3rd or 4th round.
Hendo67
4/28/09 3:34:25PM
Brock via KO, or TKO in the early second round.
mkiv9secsupra
4/28/09 4:02:49PM
I dont see any way for Brock to win except by purposely getting himslef caught in a triangle and doing the Rampage power bomb on Mir. But also Brock has tremendous power so if Mir gets careless there is a chance he could be TKO'd....

Its fights like these that make me hate the HW division right now.. Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir for the heavyweight title while Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Emelianenko, and Overeem are nowhere in sight!!! HW=irrelevant
Jackelope
4/28/09 5:44:22PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra

I dont see any way for Brock to win except by purposely getting himslef caught in a triangle and doing the Rampage power bomb on Mir. But also Brock has tremendous power so if Mir gets careless there is a chance he could be TKO'd....

Its fights like these that make me hate the HW division right now.. Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir for the heavyweight title while Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Emelianenko, and Overeem are nowhere in sight!!! HW=irrelevant



For the most part I agree. Although I'll admit I am getting excited about Velasquez, Dos Santos, Carwin, and I've got to admit that even Kongo has shown some growth lately. Plus, you've got to admit that since Frank and Brock beat Noguiera and Couture respectively, there's something to be said for their place in a title fight. Just some thoughts
Franklinfan47
4/29/09 1:10:50PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra

I dont see any way for Brock to win except by purposely getting himslef caught in a triangle and doing the Rampage power bomb on Mir. But also Brock has tremendous power so if Mir gets careless there is a chance he could be TKO'd....

Its fights like these that make me hate the HW division right now.. Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir for the heavyweight title while Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Emelianenko, and Overeem are nowhere in sight!!! HW=irrelevant



I don't know how valid this statement is, since Lesnar and Mir beat Couture and Big Nog to get to this fight. Plus, they are fighting at ufc 102, so to say they are no where in sight is a bit of an overstatement.

As for Emelianenko, Arlovski, and Overeem, I think the only one who would make any difference is Fedor imo.
imanidiot777
4/29/09 6:16:41PM
If Brock sticks to the right game plan he should be able to win this fight. If you watch his three fights, his striking looked significantly better in each. He looked completely uncomfortable on his feet against Mir the first time. Against Herring, he could throw punches a little better and plan his takedowns a little more but still kept it mostly on the ground. Against Randy his form looked fine and his punches were obviously hard because the knockdown punch wasn't even direct. We have been told he has been working on his submission defense skills but we haven't seen those in action yet. If his skills keep increasing at this rate his standup will be better than Mir's.

Even if he does take Mir down, how do we know he won't do what he did to Herring? He kept him in a position where he couldn't pull guard or do any submissions and he did it easily for three rounds. Herring was 255 lbs for that fight so basically Mir's size so I don't want to hear that Mir is too big for that.

On the feet, at the rate Brock has improved I'd give him the standup. Basically the only thing he MUST avoid is Mir's guard. If Mir tries to pull guard he has to let him stand up.
Jackelope
4/29/09 8:02:44PM
@ imanidiot

You've got some points, but I don't agree with your assessment of Brock's growth pushing him beyond Mir. This is actually counter-intuitive to some views I've had in the past, but I think technique wise Mir still has a massive edge in striking. The only difference is that Brock, being so huge and strong, will have a natural chin and heavy hands. If I was Mir, in the 1st round I would avoid any normal ranged exchanges on the feet with Brock. I'd be trying to clinch him up, tire him out, possibly play on the ground for a bit, and then play with his striking later. Guys who aren't advanced in striking will show their true colors as they grow even more tired and take even more damage. The reason why I wouldn't want to play with Brock in the 1st is because his natural explosiveness and power will be there, and he's shown a willingness to take some damage in order to throw a bomb.

So the post is counter-intuitive in the sense that I actually agree with you about learning curves being much steeper when someone is young in the sport, but I think it is fair to say that Mir has been striking long enough (his whole life basically) that his technique on the feet will be years ahead of Brock's. The only X factor here is that Brock is so massive.

As for Lesnar being able to lay on Frank like he did on Herring- I would be outright shocked to see him pull that off. Heath Herring has always been a top position grappler and a decent scrambler. Herring, to me, is like the quintessential defensive fighter. His survival skills are so good no matter the circumstances that he has been able to build a lot of wins based on the "Homer Simpson factor" as I would call it. Basically his opponents have been so neutralized by his powerful survival skills that his lackluster finishing skills have carried him to victory over neutralized opponents. Does that make any sense to anyone?

Mir is completely different in the sense that he's got a very dangerous, if not one of the most dangerous offenses in all of MMA. His defense is actually where he lacks the most. Most of the time Frank Mir is either going to finish you early, or he's going to lose. Mir will not be happy to lay there and take a beating. He will either go for something dangerous and get KTFO'd, or he'll snag any tiny little piece of limb you leave out there and make something happen with it. That's why he has several rare and completely acrobatic submissions on his record. His sweep to ankle lock on Tank Abbott, the Mir Lock he pulled off, and his flowing transitions one to the other for the arm lock he submitted Antoni Hardonk with. He's willing to take chances with that incredible grip and core strength he must have considering the submissions he's pulled off. When he grabs something he is grabbing with the intention to take it home with him, and the agility of his guard is something we've very rarely (if ever) seen from heavyweights. That translates to a powerful offense. So, with respect for some of the points you've made, I think that to compare Mir and Herring is a total waste of time. Not that I'm trying to totally crap on your points here
mrsmiley
4/29/09 8:11:30PM
I think Mir is just a bad match up for Brock.
When you watch Mir fight,it's almost like he's not their for an athletic competition, but instead is showing "self defence". (sorry if that don't make sense)

I think Rogan said it best when he made the claim that Mir is great at small man Ju-Jitsu.
AchillesHeel
4/30/09 10:12:49AM

Posted by imanidiot777

Even if he does take Mir down, how do we know he won't do what he did to Herring?


Mir is a better jiu-jitsu fighter than Herring.


Posted by mrsmiley

When you watch Mir fight,it's almost like he's not their for an athletic competition, but instead is showing "self defence". (sorry if that don't make sense)


Mir has said "We train to break it; if you tap out first, then good for you." This could be (a) trash talk designed to get in his opponents' heads, and (b) true for a lot of pro fighters, but then he went ahead and actually snapped a guy's arm in half.
sbulldavid
5/27/09 8:21:35PM
I can see this fight ending like the Pete Williams fight , but I think Brock is quicker than that.

It could go like the first fight , with Lesnar getting the finish this time , but I think Mir knows what to expect this time .

This version of Frank Mir is better than the former HW champion version of Mir. Brock Lesnar is for real though.

So they come out and feel each other out

if Mir throws a kick he gets taken down
if Lesnar throws a punch he's going to follow with a takedown If Lesnar connects , Mir rolls into guard

Mir pulls guard right away this time. Mir by kimura .
mikevolz
5/27/09 9:13:41PM
I have always thought frank mir was capable of that kind of stand up he used against nog. he has always had really technical stand up, but just a lot of power.


he does get wildly flustered when he gets hit though. his chin isnt very good, and he goes haywire when he gets hit.


i wouldnt bet on the fight, i think we are right in thinking brock is a 2-1 maybe even a 3-1 favorite, but anything other than that is giving either one of them too much credit.

im praying like hell lesnar gets his leg broken, although if that happens mir is going to be unbearable. i just dont want to here the lesnar/fedor talk. i dont think anybody cares about mir/fedor.
telnights
5/27/09 10:40:10PM
I'm up in the air on this fight. I don't think Mir got lucky at all wrestler are very open to leg locks and knee bars and when Mir got his leg he grabbed on to him like a damn anaconda and most guys wouldn't have been able to pull off that sub but Mir has always been able to pull stuff like that off. I leaning towards Mir by sub again just because he has done it once before and there is a good chance he will do it again. Lesnar has looked better in his past 2 fights but he hasn't fought anyone with the sub skills as good as Mir to top it off Mir has been training with Maia for this fight and bulking up to boot.
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