Who do you think is the fighter to have Shogun's Number?

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Pookie
4/28/10 2:47:01PM
Earlier today i was pondering Rampage v. Shogun 2 and i came to the conclusion that Shogun just has Rampages number. He can pressure(kicks) from a greater range without repercussion in return. And Rampage will probably never be able to deal with that matchup. Rampage is not fast enough.

Lyoto is a stylistic nightmare for alot of fighters, but Shogun seemed to even have the tools to disassemble him too. He was able to land the more powerful shots In a fight where both fighters got hit just as much. And personally i dont think Lyoto can pull it off in the rematch. Lyoto's just not powerful enough.

Shogun was able to deal with both extremes of the striking spectrum, and did so with with ease.



Now with all this said, Who do you think matches up favorably against Shogun at 205?
cowcatcher
4/28/10 2:54:51PM
forrest




sorry had to.
Pookie
4/28/10 3:03:07PM

Posted by cowcatcher

forrest




sorry had to.



Oh,
Wallass
4/28/10 3:16:34PM
Coleman possibly? HAHA
Caesarrrr
4/28/10 3:18:51PM
first of, LOL at the forrest comment. loved it.


Secondly, I'd say someone like Jon Jones (obviously not yet, but sometime soon).

He has the ground pedigree to get shogun to the ground, and from there I believe he is one of the best at 205 for GNP. I belive his ground game is only going to get better considering his camp. I feel like he has probably the best attitude and approach to the game (this based on interviews and what not). He has great work ethic.


and then you go to the feet. Shogun is amazing on his feet. I think Jon Jones might be better. Honestly, I know I'm nuthugging here, but I feel Jon Jones has the tools to be the best LHW ever.
Jackelope
4/28/10 3:24:31PM
Damn I jumped in this thread to jokingly say "Jon Jones" before anybody had a chance to but it looks like I've been beaten to it. Honestly right now you could ask-

"Who do you think is the fighter to have "INSERT FIGHTER NAME HERE"'s number?"

and guaranteed the response you would get is-

"Insert Jon Jones and some form of justification here"

Honestly I can't say the huggers are wrong at this point, though. The guy has certainly shown some pretty impressive skills. Then again I remember about 3 years ago you could have asked the same question and the answer would have been

"Insert Brandon Vera and some form of justification here"
cowcatcher
4/28/10 4:28:05PM
i hear you jackelope, but ive got to admit to buying into the jones hype train too. at this point i dont know who i would have as a big favorite against him. when vera was all the rage i never fully bought into the guy as a future belt holder, with jones i find it hard to come up with a reason why he wont be champ someday.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/28/10 5:29:53PM
I've gotta defend my boy Machida and call out Pookie at the same time. First I will post a prop that Pookie gave me on August 6, 2008. "Machida's nuts, they have more than enough room for the both of us."

Machida definitely has the power to defeat Shogun, if anything Shogun didn't have the power to knock out Machida since as you say "he landed the more powerful shots." Lyoto will game plan accordingly and also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shogun get another mark in the loss column when he fought Machida?
lohmann
4/28/10 5:36:29PM
Some dude that's fighting at 185 at the moment.

That may change should Shogun defeat Machida again (which I'm picking against).
chickmagnet
4/28/10 6:28:40PM
Machida. Shogun outscored Machida and still couldnt beat him! haha This next fight I think Machida will win decisively now that his hand is healed. Machida when into the first Shogun fight with an injured hand..
juggernautakira
4/28/10 7:21:43PM

Posted by chickmagnet

Machida. Shogun outscored Machida and still couldnt beat him! haha This next fight I think Machida will win decisively now that his hand is healed. Machida when into the first Shogun fight with an injured hand..



Excuses = Crybabies

We already know Machida is one. Dont be one too. :(
seanfu
4/28/10 7:49:48PM
Any top wrestler in the division that decides to lay on him and not strike him or press action.

Matt Hamill could probably beat him by laying on him. Bottom subs are just too damn hard to get these days.
Ordep
4/28/10 10:10:53PM
I've always said Bon Jones have very skinny legs, Shogun could easily leg kick him into misery.
I cant think of anyone to have "his number" you can make the case for some to beat him but it wont be like a sure shot or anytime (i.e. number).


Injured hand?
First, lame excuse. Second, what difference does that make? He was backpedaling like always but Shogun was smart enough to not fall on the trap. Unless he wasn't fighting forward because of the "injury" yeah right.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/28/10 11:05:02PM

I've always said Bon Jones have very skinny legs,


Is Bon Jones a cousin of Bon Scott?
chickmagnet
4/29/10 12:09:13AM

Posted by juggernautakira


Posted by chickmagnet

Machida. Shogun outscored Machida and still couldnt beat him! haha This next fight I think Machida will win decisively now that his hand is healed. Machida when into the first Shogun fight with an injured hand..



Excuses = Crybabies

We already know Machida is one. Dont be one too. :(



complaints about decisions = CryBabies, all the ppl who think Shogun is the uncrowned champ


chickmagnet
4/29/10 12:11:42AM

Posted by Ordep

Injured hand?
First, lame excuse. Second, what difference does that make? He was backpedaling like always but Shogun was smart enough to not fall on the trap. Unless he wasn't fighting forward because of the "injury" yeah right.



well, whose name did Buffer call? injured hand or no Machida went home with the belt.
sbulldavid
4/29/10 12:25:17AM
Shogun Nuthugger Here ! LOL. I still think Machida is his equal, Shogun should have won the first fight but, the crying is over, he's gotta do it again and that is a tough task. Shogun has the best tools in the world, he's the better fighter on the ground, but he'll probably never get it there. He still has to play the guessing game for 5 rounds and he's been dropped often in his career, if Machida drops him it's going to be a short night. A big part of Shogun's game is his finishing skills, but he's going to need to land something solid on Machida's chin first. I think that if he can dominate the same as he did the last fight he will be aggressive enough to get the late KO, but I think that Machida will go in as the slight favorite.
warglory
4/29/10 12:18:40PM

Posted by Ordep

I've always said Bon Jones have very skinny legs, Shogun could easily leg kick him into misery.
I cant think of anyone to have "his number" you can make the case for some to beat him but it wont be like a sure shot or anytime (i.e. number).


Injured hand?
First, lame excuse. Second, what difference does that make? He was backpedaling like always but Shogun was smart enough to not fall on the trap. Unless he wasn't fighting forward because of the "injury" yeah right.



What is this, 2008 all over again? Machida doesn't backpedal, he is evasive, there is a huge difference. You make it sound like he refused to exchange with Shogun when in reality for every leg kick Shogun threw Machida would answer with a punch. Machida has every tool to beat Shogun, and I think he will.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/29/10 4:42:52PM

Posted by sbulldavid

Shogun Nuthugger Here ! LOL. I still think Machida is his equal, Shogun should have won the first fight but, the crying is over, he's gotta do it again and that is a tough task. Shogun has the best tools in the world, he's the better fighter on the ground, but he'll probably never get it there. He still has to play the guessing game for 5 rounds and he's been dropped often in his career, if Machida drops him it's going to be a short night. A big part of Shogun's game is his finishing skills, but he's going to need to land something solid on Machida's chin first. I think that if he can dominate the same as he did the last fight he will be aggressive enough to get the late KO, but I think that Machida will go in as the slight favorite.



Um, how is Shogun better on the ground? Both are BJJ black belts but Lyoto also trained in Sumo. And were these the shots that you said he needed to land?
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Pookie
4/29/10 4:54:02PM
I think their ground games are very different. Shogun transitions extremely well and is hard to control. Machida holds position very well and would likely hold top position.

If Machida was on Top, i can see him winning the round by sitting in guard, posturing, and controlling. If Shogun was on top, i can see him improving position landing Gnp and losing his position in favor of seeking damage.

For their respective skillsets, i think they are both equally good on the ground as their bjj skills compliment their fighting styles.

WIth that said, i think Machida has some of the best takedown defense in the game. I dont like shogun's odds of winning if he tries for takedowns. He'll just tire himself out.
Pookie
4/29/10 5:00:37PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I've gotta defend my boy Machida and call out Pookie at the same time. First I will post a prop that Pookie gave me on August 6, 2008. "Machida's nuts, they have more than enough room for the both of us."

Machida definitely has the power to defeat Shogun, if anything Shogun didn't have the power to knock out Machida since as you say "he landed the more powerful shots." Lyoto will game plan accordingly and also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shogun get another mark in the loss column when he fought Machida?



Aww, you noticed

I dont think Machida has the power necassary to make shogun abandon his aggressive gameplan. But shogun did prove his power was enough to debilitate machida's base and mobility. He worked his way up, Machida rarely got hit in the face so of course there's not going to be a knockout.

He did get a loss marked in the column, but that means little compared to how effective his gameplan was for countering Lyoto's damn near untoachable style of fighting. In my opinion, Lyoto's way of fighting is not adequate for dealing with powerful leg strikes, and coupled with the fact that Lyoto has never had to deal with them - i dont think he will adapt as well as Shogun. A fighter who's made his name by adapting his game to the styles hes faced.
lohmann
4/29/10 5:01:35PM
This fight is going to be great.

It could end in ten seconds, but the answer will be worth it.

EDIT: Anderson Silva.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/29/10 5:10:00PM

Posted by Pookie

I dont think Machida has the power necassary to make shogun abandon his aggressive gameplan. But shogun did prove his power was enough to debilitate machida's base and mobility. He worked his way up, Machida rarely got hit in the face so of course there's not going to be a knockout.

He did get a loss marked in the column, but that means little compared to how effective his gameplan was for countering Lyoto's damn near untoachable style of fighting. In my opinion, Lyoto's way of fighting is not adequate for dealing with powerful leg strikes, and coupled with the fact that Lyoto has never had to deal with them - i dont think he will adapt as well as Shogun. A fighter who's made his name by adapting his game to the styles hes faced.



You don't think that Anderson Silva can help Machida with leg kicks?
Pookie
4/29/10 5:14:23PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie

I dont think Machida has the power necassary to make shogun abandon his aggressive gameplan. But shogun did prove his power was enough to debilitate machida's base and mobility. He worked his way up, Machida rarely got hit in the face so of course there's not going to be a knockout.

He did get a loss marked in the column, but that means little compared to how effective his gameplan was for countering Lyoto's damn near untoachable style of fighting. In my opinion, Lyoto's way of fighting is not adequate for dealing with powerful leg strikes, and coupled with the fact that Lyoto has never had to deal with them - i dont think he will adapt as well as Shogun. A fighter who's made his name by adapting his game to the styles hes faced.



You don't think that Anderson Silva can help Machida with leg kicks?



I think if he can than he already did going into the first fight.

Also, even though Anderson and Shogun are both muay thai fighters, i think they have completely different styles.
warglory
4/29/10 5:44:31PM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Pookie

I dont think Machida has the power necassary to make shogun abandon his aggressive gameplan. But shogun did prove his power was enough to debilitate machida's base and mobility. He worked his way up, Machida rarely got hit in the face so of course there's not going to be a knockout.

He did get a loss marked in the column, but that means little compared to how effective his gameplan was for countering Lyoto's damn near untoachable style of fighting. In my opinion, Lyoto's way of fighting is not adequate for dealing with powerful leg strikes, and coupled with the fact that Lyoto has never had to deal with them - i dont think he will adapt as well as Shogun. A fighter who's made his name by adapting his game to the styles hes faced.



You don't think that Anderson Silva can help Machida with leg kicks?



I think if he can than he already did going into the first fight.

Also, even though Anderson and Shogun are both muay thai fighters, i think they have completely different styles.



Yeah but he now has experience under his belt which is a huge factor. Now that he knows the power of Shogun's biggest offense, I think he will have the proper education to train with.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/29/10 6:30:16PM
It's not so to say that Anderson didn't help him going into the first fight, I just don't think they anticipated that Shogun was gonna put a premium on the leg kicks. Machida is like a Peyton Manning. He's a master game-planner. Which is why up until the Shogun fight he was the least hit fighter in MMA history. I think he will gameplan accordingly. Obviously, there's only enough room on Machida's nuts for one of us
enrique1
4/29/10 7:29:07PM
i would love too see a rematch between Forrest & Shogun. The first fight Shogun wasn't ready and not familar with the octogon....... Shogun would streamrool over Forrest in the rematch...
BlueSkiesBurn
4/29/10 7:44:25PM
I think that was just a bad match-up for Shogun. I don't think the results would be too much different if Griffin re-matched him. Just my humble opinion.
Jackelope
4/29/10 7:45:33PM
I was at the first fight sitting pretty close.. and I still have to say that there was no clear cut winner of that fight from the way I saw it.

Shogun has the power advantage for sure. He definitely landed the bigger shots.

That being said, Lyoto clearly has the speed advantage from the way I saw it. I have never seen anyone that was anywhere near his size move so fast in my life. Especially his leg speed.

It's going to be interesting how it plays out. I remember Pookie talking about leg kicks potentially hurting Lyoto's style but I honestly didn't buy it going into the first fight. I thought his recognition of leg strikes was too quick for him to get caught. Honestly- middle of the Octagon it was. But when Shogun squashed Lyoto's range by using the cage effectively that's when he could land on Lyoto. Which was another thing I remember talking to Pookie about. You've got to squash Lyoto's ability to use diagonal movement to retreat. Which Shogun seemed to do pretty well with great offensive footwork that I clearly underestimated.

The only answer I can honestly see Machida coming up with to counter Shogun's excellent footwork and use of the cage is to use more hand defense and keep his hips under him in order to defend those leg kicks. If you notice Machida never gets hit in the face because when he's attacked he pulls his upper body backwards and thrusts his lower body forward in order to take away space and make his opponents reach to touch his chin. That's why head hunter type fighters will always have trouble with him and that's why if you take away his ability to retreat diagonally backwards his legs are exposed.

Anyways- my point begin I think I will pick Shogun in that rematch unless Machida comes out with more active hands and less movement backwards into the cage. I think it will be damn close again, though. Shogun will more than likely catch a couple shots during some pursuits and Lyoto will more than likely catch a couple body/leg shots when he's had his range stuffed.
BlueSkiesBurn
4/29/10 7:53:30PM
I can't help but wonder if Lyoto is going to implement more of a ground game for this rematch. I think it would be an effective tool for him to use since Shogun clearly had issues trying to take him down in their first fight. I understand that Machida is a counter fighter but that would be all the more reason to use his takedowns because it's probably not something that Shogun would be expecting.
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