How do you feel about the three consecutive losses in a row "rule"?
MMAPlayground.com »
MMA General »
MMA Lounge »
How do you feel about the three consecutive losses in a row "rule"?
Rush
9/25/07 11:17:48PM
With both Chuck and Diego racking up two consecutive losses, how do you guys feel about the three losses in a row and you're out "rule"?
Personally I think it is a stupid thing. There are some guys that have really shaky performances (i.e. go 1-3 like Leben or Pete Spratt) and are still around, but there are other guys that lose two fights (like Loiseau) to top fighters and are gone.
I can think of a few more guys that have gotten the boot despite being good and/or exciting fighters.
Nick Diaz - 3 consecutive losses and then gone
Joe Riggs - 3 losses in 5 fights
Trigg - 2 consecutive losses and gone
Robbie Lawler - 2 consecutive losses and gone
Yves Edwards
If the trend continues do you think we've seen the end of fighters like Goullet, Shonie Carter, Hardonk, , Sinosic, Wilson Gouveia, Rory Singer, Joe Doerksen (and others)?
What about other MIA fighters like Dean Lister?
Could guys like Stephen Bonnar, Diego, Chuck, Mir, Cro Cop, Alessio Sakara be on the bubble?
Do you think the UFC takes into account the calibre of opponent these guys lose to? i.e. If you lose to two top 5 fighters, does it really mean you don't belong in the UFC? Do you think the UFC is consistent with this rule or do they give special treatment to fighters they like and/or make them money?
Do you think they take wins in other orgs into consideration? i.e. fighter is 8-3 with three non-consecutive losses in the UFC
As a final comment, I don't totally buy the answer that there are contract disputes. I can't see a guy coming off losses wanting to risk getting booted from the big leagues because of a money issue. Likewise, if the UFC really wanted a fighter they would pretty much come to terms with them.
Personally I think it is a stupid thing. There are some guys that have really shaky performances (i.e. go 1-3 like Leben or Pete Spratt) and are still around, but there are other guys that lose two fights (like Loiseau) to top fighters and are gone.
I can think of a few more guys that have gotten the boot despite being good and/or exciting fighters.
Nick Diaz - 3 consecutive losses and then gone
Joe Riggs - 3 losses in 5 fights
Trigg - 2 consecutive losses and gone
Robbie Lawler - 2 consecutive losses and gone
Yves Edwards
If the trend continues do you think we've seen the end of fighters like Goullet, Shonie Carter, Hardonk, , Sinosic, Wilson Gouveia, Rory Singer, Joe Doerksen (and others)?
What about other MIA fighters like Dean Lister?
Could guys like Stephen Bonnar, Diego, Chuck, Mir, Cro Cop, Alessio Sakara be on the bubble?
Do you think the UFC takes into account the calibre of opponent these guys lose to? i.e. If you lose to two top 5 fighters, does it really mean you don't belong in the UFC? Do you think the UFC is consistent with this rule or do they give special treatment to fighters they like and/or make them money?
Do you think they take wins in other orgs into consideration? i.e. fighter is 8-3 with three non-consecutive losses in the UFC
As a final comment, I don't totally buy the answer that there are contract disputes. I can't see a guy coming off losses wanting to risk getting booted from the big leagues because of a money issue. Likewise, if the UFC really wanted a fighter they would pretty much come to terms with them.
Rush
9/25/07 11:24:16PM
BTW, I am aware that some of those examples are not the best ones, but I had to put more than a few names down.
Scott_Revels
9/25/07 11:25:01PM
I don't have an opinion on this matter, just pointing out that Bonnar won his fight against Mike Nickels and will win his fight against Schaefer therefore making it two consecutive wins. I don't think that Stephan is in any danger.
nubby
9/25/07 11:29:34PM
You are aware that none of those guys were given the boot? They left.
Rush
9/25/07 11:31:25PM
Posted by nubby
You are aware that none of those guys were given the boot? They left.
Why would they leave the "#1" MMA org? That doesn't make sense. I don't buy it. I recall a few interviews that I have read regarding UFC veterans that when asked "why they aren't fighting in the UFC" they say "ask Dana White"
scobac
9/25/07 11:35:10PM
Posted by nubby
You are aware that none of those guys were given the boot? They left.
is that a fact?
kevietre
9/26/07 12:27:16AM
Pete Sell is skatin on thin ice he has lost his last 4 fights in the UFC. If is wasn't for Serra being the welterweight champ I dont think he would be getting these chances.
Chuck hasn't lost 3 in a row yet so we'll cross that bridge if it happens.
Diaz was a bad loss for the UFC IMO he went on to do bigger things like beating Gomi even though the win was overturned.
Yves Edwards lost two fights in a row in the Octagon and he was givin the boot. I think that was another bad loss for the UFC since lightweight is heating up right now. Yves would have been dangerous matchups for all the standup fighters in lightweight like Stout, Fisher, and even Griffin.
Asseurio Silva and Josh Haynes are both 0-3 in the Octagon and I like Silva but I don't think either of them are assests to the UFC anymore.
Bottom line it all depends on the fighter rather then the record. If a fighter has proven himself in the Octagon already and losses 3 in a row then let him win on some of the smaller shows and invite him back.
Chuck hasn't lost 3 in a row yet so we'll cross that bridge if it happens.
Diaz was a bad loss for the UFC IMO he went on to do bigger things like beating Gomi even though the win was overturned.
Yves Edwards lost two fights in a row in the Octagon and he was givin the boot. I think that was another bad loss for the UFC since lightweight is heating up right now. Yves would have been dangerous matchups for all the standup fighters in lightweight like Stout, Fisher, and even Griffin.
Asseurio Silva and Josh Haynes are both 0-3 in the Octagon and I like Silva but I don't think either of them are assests to the UFC anymore.
Bottom line it all depends on the fighter rather then the record. If a fighter has proven himself in the Octagon already and losses 3 in a row then let him win on some of the smaller shows and invite him back.
ocho-cinco
9/26/07 2:17:47AM
Posted by scobac
Posted by nubby
You are aware that none of those guys were given the boot? They left.
is that a fact?
Yeah I would also like to know the answer to that. Is that your opinion, something you heard about one or two of these guys, or is it a fact.
CwB
9/26/07 2:23:50AM
when comes to fighters like chuck and mirko i think it would take 5 consecutive losses for chuck to get the boot and 4 losses for mirko to get the boot.
I think it all depends on how many fans you bring in, fan favorites can lose more before getting the boot.
In my opinion chris leben should have got the boot but he just won so is safe, goulet should get the boot, haynes should get the boot,
P.S.
bring back the king or rock and rumble elvis sinosic, he should always have a career in the ufc for going through the gauntlet that ufc has put him through elvis should get a title shot with all the confusion in 205...
I think it all depends on how many fans you bring in, fan favorites can lose more before getting the boot.
In my opinion chris leben should have got the boot but he just won so is safe, goulet should get the boot, haynes should get the boot,
P.S.
bring back the king or rock and rumble elvis sinosic, he should always have a career in the ufc for going through the gauntlet that ufc has put him through elvis should get a title shot with all the confusion in 205...
mrsmiley
9/26/07 8:40:27AM
I don't think allo fighters should be given the boot.
Didn't Mark Coleman lose five in a row?
And he still managed to come back and win the PRIDE 2000 Grand Prix,and even racked up a victory over Shogun.
To be honest with you,I would rather watch a guy like Don Frye or Phil Baroni come out and lose 10 fights straight giving it their all,rather than watch some other guy come out and win 10 straight just using L&P techniques.
Didn't Mark Coleman lose five in a row?
And he still managed to come back and win the PRIDE 2000 Grand Prix,and even racked up a victory over Shogun.
To be honest with you,I would rather watch a guy like Don Frye or Phil Baroni come out and lose 10 fights straight giving it their all,rather than watch some other guy come out and win 10 straight just using L&P techniques.
NatedawgThaM
9/26/07 8:48:50AM
Yeah I want Randleman back!!!
When he shuffles his feet back and forth before a fight you KNOW the fans would LOVE it!!! Plus his takedowns are second to few...
Same with Mark Coleman!!!!
I rather see these tough guys go out there and give it there all and lose every fight because they gas the first 30 seconds then see another LNP or Floyd Mayweather Jab and run fight!!!
If you don't want to give it your all and put on a show and a spectacular WAR then get the fudge out!!!
When he shuffles his feet back and forth before a fight you KNOW the fans would LOVE it!!! Plus his takedowns are second to few...
Same with Mark Coleman!!!!
I rather see these tough guys go out there and give it there all and lose every fight because they gas the first 30 seconds then see another LNP or Floyd Mayweather Jab and run fight!!!
If you don't want to give it your all and put on a show and a spectacular WAR then get the fudge out!!!
fedorwins1
9/26/07 8:57:20AM
Posted by NatedawgThaM
Yeah I want Randleman back!!!
When he shuffles his feet back and forth before a fight you KNOW the fans would LOVE it!!! Plus his takedowns are second to few...
Same with Mark Coleman!!!!
I rather see these tough guys go out there and give it there all and lose every fight because they gas the first 30 seconds then see another LNP or Floyd Mayweather Jab and run fight!!!
If you don't want to give it your all and put on a show and a spectacular WAR then get the fudge out!!!
second to a few...........?
NatedawgThaM
9/26/07 8:59:48AM
Posted by fedorwins1
Posted by NatedawgThaM
Yeah I want Randleman back!!!
When he shuffles his feet back and forth before a fight you KNOW the fans would LOVE it!!! Plus his takedowns are second to few...
Same with Mark Coleman!!!!
I rather see these tough guys go out there and give it there all and lose every fight because they gas the first 30 seconds then see another LNP or Floyd Mayweather Jab and run fight!!!
If you don't want to give it your all and put on a show and a spectacular WAR then get the fudge out!!!
second to a few...........?
YEAH!!! The list is very few for the people that have actually "stuffed" a Randleman takedown...Especially at the beginning of a fight when hes so explosive but when he gasses out then yeah, maybe they are second to "many"..
Rush
9/26/07 9:47:16AM
Wow, I didn't think you guys would be going back that far. lol
Since we're on the subject:
Coleman lost 3 fights in a row before going to Pride
Pete Williams lost 3 fights in a row (and has never fought since)
Pedro Rizzo lost 2, won 1 and lost another 2 and then won another 2 (3-4)
Since we're on the subject:
Coleman lost 3 fights in a row before going to Pride
Pete Williams lost 3 fights in a row (and has never fought since)
Pedro Rizzo lost 2, won 1 and lost another 2 and then won another 2 (3-4)
NatedawgThaM
9/26/07 9:55:48AM
Posted by Rush
Wow, I didn't think you guys would be going back that far. lol
Since we're on the subject:
Coleman lost 3 fights in a row before going to Pride
Pete Williams lost 3 fights in a row (and has never fought since)
Pedro Rizzo lost 2, won 1 and lost another 2 and then won another 2 (3-4)
Yeah Pedro Rizzo is one of the guys I want back..He had a impressive KO over Jeff Monson even though the 1st 2 rounds were anything but exciting the 3rd round was great and he stopped him. I think he could do some damage in the Heavyweight division unless he goes against Fedor, Randy, Big Nog, or Mark Hunt...
Pete Williams is only known for that lucky kick on Coleman....
I want Coleman back into the UFC because him and Randy would be an exciting chess match kind of like that boxing match Hopkins vs. Winky that fight was entertaining and exciting so this would be too!!!
Stickan
9/26/07 10:20:09AM
They'll never give Chuck the boot no matter how many times he loses. He's an icon for the UFC, is a close friend to Dana and would be a big draw for whatever company he would work for.
I don't think they've even considered given Diego the boot yet considering the extremely high caliber opposition he's faced. If he loses to a Drew Fickett or a Rich Clementi he might be in trouble.
I don't think they've even considered given Diego the boot yet considering the extremely high caliber opposition he's faced. If he loses to a Drew Fickett or a Rich Clementi he might be in trouble.
MMAnomale
9/26/07 10:55:44AM
The UFC knows how to alienate some fighters. One of these days it may come back to haunt them. They aren't wanting to pay these fighters as much as Pride did(of course that may be why Pride went under) and their losing many good fighters.
I'd love to see Nick Diaz, Lawler, Edwards, and many others back in the octogon, but these other org's are paying them more money, at least in Yves Edwards case they are. I think Bodog paid him pretty good to get him there.
If they keep alienating the fighters they're going to end up alienating the fans as well.
They won't get rid of Chuck. It's up to Chuck when he wants to call it quits or fight in another org (which'll never happen). Pete Sell has lost, but his last fight was close until Quarry knocked him out. There's many fighters, but not enough events to keep everyone fighting enough to keep them happy. They need to either bring Pride back, or have more fight nights, which they've been doing, but they're is still many fighters in limbo right now.
How can you explain not fighting AA? That's ridiculous. They won't get rid of Diego, he's fought good competition, and many new fans like him alot. They won't get rid of Stephen Bonnar because of he's one of the "original TUF" guys, Forrest/Bonnar,blahblahblah.
I don't like the three and out rule. Nowadays, there isn't any easy fights. The competition is growing and becoming harder every day. Wanderlei has lost his last two fight (granted against damn good fighters) and ppl are talking about giving him an immediate title shot (which I think is stupid). Getting rid of Mirko would just be ignorent. He's one of the most exciting fighters to watch and is always providing highlight reals.
I'd love to see Nick Diaz, Lawler, Edwards, and many others back in the octogon, but these other org's are paying them more money, at least in Yves Edwards case they are. I think Bodog paid him pretty good to get him there.
If they keep alienating the fighters they're going to end up alienating the fans as well.
They won't get rid of Chuck. It's up to Chuck when he wants to call it quits or fight in another org (which'll never happen). Pete Sell has lost, but his last fight was close until Quarry knocked him out. There's many fighters, but not enough events to keep everyone fighting enough to keep them happy. They need to either bring Pride back, or have more fight nights, which they've been doing, but they're is still many fighters in limbo right now.
How can you explain not fighting AA? That's ridiculous. They won't get rid of Diego, he's fought good competition, and many new fans like him alot. They won't get rid of Stephen Bonnar because of he's one of the "original TUF" guys, Forrest/Bonnar,blahblahblah.
I don't like the three and out rule. Nowadays, there isn't any easy fights. The competition is growing and becoming harder every day. Wanderlei has lost his last two fight (granted against damn good fighters) and ppl are talking about giving him an immediate title shot (which I think is stupid). Getting rid of Mirko would just be ignorent. He's one of the most exciting fighters to watch and is always providing highlight reals.
mrsmiley
9/26/07 11:42:08AM
Posted by NatedawgThaM
Posted by Rush
Wow, I didn't think you guys would be going back that far. lol
Since we're on the subject:
Coleman lost 3 fights in a row before going to Pride
Pete Williams lost 3 fights in a row (and has never fought since)
Pedro Rizzo lost 2, won 1 and lost another 2 and then won another 2 (3-4)
Yeah Pedro Rizzo is one of the guys I want back..He had a impressive KO over Jeff Monson even though the 1st 2 rounds were anything but exciting the 3rd round was great and he stopped him. I think he could do some damage in the Heavyweight division unless he goes against Fedor, Randy, Big Nog, or Mark Hunt...
Pete Williams is only known for that lucky kick on Coleman....
I want Coleman back into the UFC because him and Randy would be an exciting chess match kind of like that boxing match Hopkins vs. Winky that fight was entertaining and exciting so this would be too!!!
Exactly.
I would almost rather see Coleman go back to the UFC than to have Fedor their.Coleman VS Couture would be awesome!
BigEvil
9/26/07 1:10:09PM
It has way more to do with how exciting a fighter is than their win or loss record. The record does affect things but their are plenty of fighters who stick around just because they make fights interesting. It aso has to do with how well a fighter markets themselves, if a fighter becomes a fan favorite or a person the fans love to see get their ass handed to them then you can be sure they'll be back.
HulkRage
9/26/07 1:49:32PM
They have to have some kind of rule like that to cut the dead wood, but If you fight three of the top guys in that weight class and lose all three I don't belive you should be cut, but then again I would not want the UFC to give a fighter a "gimme" fight for there third fight either just to keep them around longer.
I would like to see Rizzo and Randleman back in the UFC and Coleman aswell, but I don't think that any of them are as good as they once were, but could be good gatekeepers.
A fight with Coleman and Cotoure would have been good, but I think that Randy could match Coleman in wrestling, but Randy is a far better striker now that Coleman is or ever was.
I would like to see Rizzo and Randleman back in the UFC and Coleman aswell, but I don't think that any of them are as good as they once were, but could be good gatekeepers.
A fight with Coleman and Cotoure would have been good, but I think that Randy could match Coleman in wrestling, but Randy is a far better striker now that Coleman is or ever was.
crimethinc
9/26/07 3:20:02PM
These fighters aren't getting "the boot." People are assuming that whenever a fighter loses a few fights in the UFC and goes to fight for other orgs. that he got "the boot" from the UFC. That's not really the case. These are MMA athletes not UFC athletes. If someone has a poor showing in one organization it doesn't really give that org. a reason to re-sign that athlete after there contract is up. If a guy does poorly in the UFC, the UFC probably won't continue to offer him fights. Being an MMA athlete he will most likely look for contracts in other orgs which he will probably find being as how he just fought for the number one name in mixed martial arts. I think when people say they left because of contract disputes it just means that they had trouble negotiating a new contract not trying to extend an old one.
Jackelope
9/26/07 3:35:53PM
Nick Diaz was a huge loss for the UFC. I see him coming back one day, though. Maybe in 2 or 3 years.
I think the UFC also takes into consideration how much development they can expect out of a fighter. If they think a fighter's skills are peaked out and he can't get past those top tier guys then what is the point in keeping him around? Babalu, to me, is a good example. Obviously now he's done, but he went on a rough streak for a while there. I think the guys who needed to know knew that Babalu had the skills to any day lose or beat one of the top guys and that's why up until his latest mishap you could always expect to see him in the Octagon. (Although the division was much weaker a year ago)
I think the UFC also takes into consideration how much development they can expect out of a fighter. If they think a fighter's skills are peaked out and he can't get past those top tier guys then what is the point in keeping him around? Babalu, to me, is a good example. Obviously now he's done, but he went on a rough streak for a while there. I think the guys who needed to know knew that Babalu had the skills to any day lose or beat one of the top guys and that's why up until his latest mishap you could always expect to see him in the Octagon. (Although the division was much weaker a year ago)
scobac
9/26/07 5:47:16PM
Posted by crimethinc
These fighters aren't getting "the boot." People are assuming that whenever a fighter loses a few fights in the UFC and goes to fight for other orgs. that he got "the boot" from the UFC. That's not really the case. These are MMA athletes not UFC athletes. If someone has a poor showing in one organization it doesn't really give that org. a reason to re-sign that athlete after there contract is up. If a guy does poorly in the UFC, the UFC probably won't continue to offer him fights. Being an MMA athlete he will most likely look for contracts in other orgs which he will probably find being as how he just fought for the number one name in mixed martial arts. I think when people say they left because of contract disputes it just means that they had trouble negotiating a new contract not trying to extend an old one.
Not resigning a fighter or "inviting him back" is loosely translated to "the boot". Not to nit pick I dont understand what you are trying to say?
nubby
9/26/07 6:16:53PM
Nick Diaz move to Pride was of his own doing. In fact the UFC made him an offer and he declined.
Joe Riggs asked to be released from his UFC/WEC deal to move to strike force
Lawler, all I can find is that after two losses he left the UFC, I couldn't find specific details but I do not believe it caused by a release from his contract.
Frank Trigg I could find almost no details concerning the reasons behind leaving but he also did not lose 3 in a row. He might have been released but I just can't find evidence one way or the other.
Yves Edwards left the UFC to go fight for Bodog.
Joe Riggs asked to be released from his UFC/WEC deal to move to strike force
Lawler, all I can find is that after two losses he left the UFC, I couldn't find specific details but I do not believe it caused by a release from his contract.
Frank Trigg I could find almost no details concerning the reasons behind leaving but he also did not lose 3 in a row. He might have been released but I just can't find evidence one way or the other.
Yves Edwards left the UFC to go fight for Bodog.
scobac
9/26/07 6:20:55PM
I would like to think the UFC like most all big corps. do their research and have polls and things of that such to see who is marketable and what is marketable. Losses usually mean not marketable and wins usually mean marketable. But thats not always the case as Im sure they find out when they research a fighters popularity and I believe thats why sometimes when a guy is winning he dosnt return and when a guy is loosing (Elvis S.) he dose return,popularity=Marketable=Money. Im sure their is plenty of gray area, disputes with dana and other execs. Not wanting to be in that big of a spotlight and not returning on their own terms, guys not representing the UFC(mma) in the media and interviews well (Diaz) a good image also translates well to $ , plenty other reasons im sure.
Jackelope
9/27/07 12:22:02PM
Posted by nubby
Nick Diaz move to Pride was of his own doing. In fact the UFC made him an offer and he declined.
Joe Riggs asked to be released from his UFC/WEC deal to move to strike force
Lawler, all I can find is that after two losses he left the UFC, I couldn't find specific details but I do not believe it caused by a release from his contract.
Frank Trigg I could find almost no details concerning the reasons behind leaving but he also did not lose 3 in a row. He might have been released but I just can't find evidence one way or the other.
Yves Edwards left the UFC to go fight for Bodog.
Like someone said before... final paperwork may say this, but is this really what happened? I know I've left a couple jobs under strange circumstances that only ended up saying "quit" on a resume.
Not saying this is the case for sure or that it isn't for sure, but it's worth considering.
Rush
9/27/07 12:47:25PM
That is very true. Also if it's a matter of money that is exactly the same as saying that your current boss does not want you in the org enough to pay more than a competitor. The UFC is big enough that it can't use the excuse that it can't afford a particular fighter.
nubby
9/27/07 1:16:12PM
Posted by Rush
That is very true. Also if it's a matter of money that is exactly the same as saying that your current boss does not want you in the org enough to pay more than a competitor. The UFC is big enough that it can't use the excuse that it can't afford a particular fighter.
It's not about what they can afford it's what the fighter is worth to the company. Someone like Nick Diaz may be an awesome fighter with some great skills, but he's trully not that marketable. It would explain why the UFC probably didn't make him a big offer. Same with all these guys. Anyone who continuously loses is not going to get the best contract.
Rush
9/27/07 2:40:50PM
Posted by nubby
It's not about what they can afford it's what the fighter is worth to the company.
Yes, you proved our point that not being offered a decent contract = not worth much to the company = getting the boot
Posted by nubby
Someone like Nick Diaz may be an awesome fighter with some great skills, but he's trully not that marketable. It would explain why the UFC probably didn't make him a big offer. Same with all these guys. Anyone who continuously loses is not going to get the best contract.
Judging by the number of Nick Diaz fans out there I don't buy that he isn't marketable. There are a number of guys fighting in the UFC that are not marketable (skills aside) IMO (Huerta, Sherk, Stevenson, Diego, and many more).
Deductive reasoning implys that you are saying that guys that lose a lot are not going to get a big contract because they aren't marketable. This is also not true because guys may lose, but put on great fights. To me great fights are what should be marketable.
I understand the desire for the UFC to want the top fightes in their ranks, but a lot of times it goes against what is necessarily marketable, IMO.
Jackelope
9/27/07 4:42:31PM
Huerta's marketable to the latino fan base that they are trying to build up.
Stevenson.. I can't believe someone would say he's not marketable! The guy is young as hell, very skilled, and very likeable IMO. I think Stevenson has a big future in the UFC.
Sherk and Diego I understand, though
And I do see that you said "IMO" so I'm not calling your opinion out, I'm just kind of surprised. I'm especially surprised a BJJ practicioner such as yourself wouldn't like Stevenson.. but 
Stevenson.. I can't believe someone would say he's not marketable! The guy is young as hell, very skilled, and very likeable IMO. I think Stevenson has a big future in the UFC.
Sherk and Diego I understand, though
And I do see that you said "IMO" so I'm not calling your opinion out, I'm just kind of surprised. I'm especially surprised a BJJ practicioner such as yourself wouldn't like Stevenson.. but