Fedor vs Henderson Stoppage Discussion

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POLL: Was the fight stopped too early?
No, Fedor could not continue 42% (23)
Yes, Fedor could have continued 31% (17)
Not sure / just want to see the poll result 27% (15)
mrsmiley
7/31/11 2:37:15PM

Posted by Jekyll




what more needs to be said... face plant and limp.... he was out until Dan hit him again, it was a perfect stop to kill the Myth that Fedor was even half as great as people claimed...


in the last 5 years hes fought 3 decent fighters all beat him



I posted this a long time ago but feel once again it's appropirate.

After reading through these forums and other forums like it I have heard that just about every fighter is overated or a can crusher. But what people dont seem to realise is that if every fighter who was accused of been overated actually was overated then there wouldnt be any fighters left. Everyones a can! Which is BS.

Lets say for example Fedor is overated. But he completly destroyed Tim Sylvia which means Tim is a can. Which takes away credit for Couture beating him which means Couture is overrated. But Brock completly destroyed Couture which means Brock is just an overated can crusher. But Cain completly destroyed Brock. Does that mean Cain hasnt actually acheived anything?

Of course it doesnt! Fighters win and lose. Get over it. Stop saying the most populare and most talented athelets at the top of a sport are overrated. Stop calling fighters cans because your just taking credit away from the people who worked hard to beat them.
zephead
7/31/11 7:46:34PM
With 4oz. gloves, anything can happen.
bjj1605
7/31/11 9:49:47PM
I just have to say... you're Poll is hard to answer. "Could the fight have continued?" and "Was it stopped too early?" Are not necessarily the same question.

This is my post from the other thread.


I was there, about five feet away in the third row. When I saw it live I thought the fight was ended early. First couple replays I thought the fight was stopped early.

Now I'm not so sure. At the very least, I don't think you can fault Herb Dean.

I'm pretty confident that Fedor could have kept fighting and probably made it to the end of the round. He's known for taking punishment and fighting back. Especially since they were on the ground. However, the way he dropped after that first shot gave Herb a good reason to jump in. He was definitely out for a second or two. I don't agree with the people who are saying that he only came to after the fight was stopped though. He clearly started rolling and moving BEFORE Herb had stopped it (although he was on his way in.)

One thing that a lot of you might not be thinking about: That was a very quick turn around. Fedor had Henderson down and was landing good shots. Herb was probably watching very closely to see if he needed to stop the fight in FEDOR'S favor. Then, in about two seconds, Henderson hit a switch and knocked Fedor out. Herb Dean was probably as surprised as all of us when he saw that. Only difference is that there's a lot more pressure on him. It's his job to protect the fighters. That pressure combined with the sudden shock of a turn around might have lead him to make a quicker decision than usual.

So to sum it up if you don't want to read my whole post: Could Fedor have kept going? Mosty likely. Does that mean Herb made a bad call? Not at all.


Edit: xdanish020 gave me props for this post but said I should have mentioned how Fedor "got up like a drunken monkey." Its true that Fedor was on very wobbly legs. I'm not sure that really factors in to the discussion though. We've seen fighters fight through a bad case of the wobbles before, like the Kongo v Barry fight mentioned before. Especially considering they were on the ground. I doubt any one is trying to say he wasn't hurt (which the wobbles would disprove) they're saying he could have recovered. Last edited 7/31/11 8:54PM by bjj1605

Aether
7/31/11 11:53:52PM
I think it's pretty clear. A fighter either can continue fighting or he can't.

I think you're mixing up two different questions. One is "was the fight stopped early" and the other is "do I understand why Herb Dean stopped the fight"

Basically from reading your post, what you're saying is that you think the fight could have continued but you understand why Dean jumped in. The two are different issues though. Take Herb Dean out of the equation and pretend he is a robot. The questions is simply whether Fedor could continue fighting or not, and if he could, then it should be a bad stoppage, if he was knocked out then it should be a good and maybe even LATE stoppage.

Forget about what Herb Dean was thinking or the fact that he even exists when answering the question. Just ask if the fight SHOULD have been stopped, not if you understand why it was stopped. These are two different questions.
tn_rebel
8/1/11 12:22:59AM

Posted by Aether

I think it's pretty clear. A fighter either can continue fighting or he can't.

I think you're mixing up two different questions. One is "was the fight stopped early" and the other is "do I understand why Herb Dean stopped the fight"

Basically from reading your post, what you're saying is that you think the fight could have continued but you understand why Dean jumped in. The two are different issues though. Take Herb Dean out of the equation and pretend he is a robot. The questions is simply whether Fedor could continue fighting or not, and if he could, then it should be a bad stoppage, if he was knocked out then it should be a good and maybe even LATE stoppage.

Forget about what Herb Dean was thinking or the fact that he even exists when answering the question. Just ask if the fight SHOULD have been stopped, not if you understand why it was stopped. These are two different questions.



So your saying pretend it was a street fight with no ref to stop it? If so Fedor might have ended up in intensive care, so thank God thats not the case.
Pookie
8/1/11 1:40:00AM
Anything "might" have happened. Gsp "might" have suffered a seizure from the impact of dan henderson's hand hitting Fedor's skull.

What "might" have happened means nothing.
Aether
8/1/11 4:27:49AM

Posted by tn_rebel


Posted by Aether

I think it's pretty clear. A fighter either can continue fighting or he can't.

I think you're mixing up two different questions. One is "was the fight stopped early" and the other is "do I understand why Herb Dean stopped the fight"

Basically from reading your post, what you're saying is that you think the fight could have continued but you understand why Dean jumped in. The two are different issues though. Take Herb Dean out of the equation and pretend he is a robot. The questions is simply whether Fedor could continue fighting or not, and if he could, then it should be a bad stoppage, if he was knocked out then it should be a good and maybe even LATE stoppage.

Forget about what Herb Dean was thinking or the fact that he even exists when answering the question. Just ask if the fight SHOULD have been stopped, not if you understand why it was stopped. These are two different questions.



So your saying pretend it was a street fight with no ref to stop it? If so Fedor might have ended up in intensive care, so thank God thats not the case.



Uhhh how exactly do you get that from what I said? I think it's quite clear what I'm saying, you should re-read my post if you honestly believe I was saying "pretend this was an unsanctioned street fight".

I'm telling the guy who was saying the poll was difficult to answer to separate the questions of whether the stoppage was correct and whether herb dean had a reason for stopping the fight and just answer the question of whether he thinks the fight should have been stopped. Not whether there is an argument for the fight to be stopped, but whether they as an individual believe that the fight should have been stopped when it was.

For the record, I haven't said whether I agree or disagree with the stoppage, I'm just clarifying the discussion because I think there are people who are misinterpreting the question.
Aether
8/1/11 4:40:41AM

Posted by mrsmiley

I'm torn on this one. What I don't understand is why Herb didn't stop it when hendo had his back? That's when it seemed to me Fedor was doing nothing.
When they rolled over Fedor kicked once and had an arm up and looked like he was defending.It was so close to the stoppage though. Then again I couldn't see what Herb saw,did Fedors eyes roll?

Either way I can see a good argument from both sides of the story.



This is the best post on the issue IMO. I'm starting to think that Dean found like a 9 second window which was the worst possible time to stop the fight. If he had stopped the fight 5 seconds earlier, when Fedor was flat on his face I think people would've thought it was a great stoppage, and I think that if he waited 5 more seconds to see if Fedor could have recovered people would also be praising his decision to let the fight go on, but he jumped in at this really bizarre window of time between what looked like a knockout and a fast recovery.

Still am not sure where I stand. I generally think it's better to give fighters, especially fighters who have shown huge potential to recover from damage, the benefit of the doubt, and once he waited long enough to allow Fedor to turn and put his arms up, he probably should've given him a few more seconds to see if he was recovered enough to tie up.

-edit-
Yeah I think I'm on the bad stoppage side now that I've had a lot of time to think about it. Once Dean let it go to the point where Fedor spun and put his arms up, that has to be considered intelligent defense. If that is the case, either Dean stopped it too late, allowing Fedor to regain consciousness before stepping in, or he just stepped in too early to begin with, either way I think it was a bad decision, because at the exact time of the stoppage, Fedor was definitely making an attempt to defend.

I think it could very well have been stopped EARLIER and been a good stoppage, but at the moment of the stoppage Fedor was defending, so I have to say I disagree with it after much thought.
bjj1605
8/1/11 11:53:10AM
If thats how you mean it....

I would say "Yes Fedor could have continued fighting."

I agree with you that Herb should have considered his past. He's taken punishment and kept going before. Big fights with experienced refs should be held to a higher standard. Herb can be expected to know about Fedor's history.

So I do think he stopped it early (but like I said in my first post, I totally understand why and I think a lot of good refs would have made the same decision) . Unfortunately, we can never know what would have happened if he didn't.
grappler0000
8/1/11 12:37:55PM

Posted by Aether


Posted by mrsmiley

I'm torn on this one. What I don't understand is why Herb didn't stop it when hendo had his back? That's when it seemed to me Fedor was doing nothing.
When they rolled over Fedor kicked once and had an arm up and looked like he was defending.It was so close to the stoppage though. Then again I couldn't see what Herb saw,did Fedors eyes roll?

Either way I can see a good argument from both sides of the story.



This is the best post on the issue IMO. I'm starting to think that Dean found like a 9 second window which was the worst possible time to stop the fight. If he had stopped the fight 5 seconds earlier, when Fedor was flat on his face I think people would've thought it was a great stoppage, and I think that if he waited 5 more seconds to see if Fedor could have recovered people would also be praising his decision to let the fight go on, but he jumped in at this really bizarre window of time between what looked like a knockout and a fast recovery.

Still am not sure where I stand. I generally think it's better to give fighters, especially fighters who have shown huge potential to recover from damage, the benefit of the doubt, and once he waited long enough to allow Fedor to turn and put his arms up, he probably should've given him a few more seconds to see if he was recovered enough to tie up.

-edit-
Yeah I think I'm on the bad stoppage side now that I've had a lot of time to think about it. Once Dean let it go to the point where Fedor spun and put his arms up, that has to be considered intelligent defense. If that is the case, either Dean stopped it too late, allowing Fedor to regain consciousness before stepping in, or he just stepped in too early to begin with, either way I think it was a bad decision, because at the exact time of the stoppage, Fedor was definitely making an attempt to defend.

I think it could very well have been stopped EARLIER and been a good stoppage, but at the moment of the stoppage Fedor was defending, so I have to say I disagree with it after much thought.



I'm a bit confused where your timeline is coming from. It all happened in just a few seconds. If he had stopped it 5 seconds earlier, the stoppage woul've been in Fedor's favor.

The GIF below shows just as Hendo goes from getting pounded on to a reversal and finishing it. As soon as Fedor goes out, Herb runs up to get a look at Fedor's face for confirmation. He sees he's out and begins to step in. It's at about the same time that Fedor comes to and begins to roll, but it's too late at that point. Herb sees a limp body and then checks his face to be sure...I would have a hard time with a ref not stopping it at that point. When I watched it live, I wasn't completely sold on the stoppage, but every time I watch it, especially from the proper angle, it makes more sense each and every time.

mrsmiley
8/1/11 2:54:33PM

Posted by grappler0000


Posted by Aether


Posted by mrsmiley

I'm torn on this one. What I don't understand is why Herb didn't stop it when hendo had his back? That's when it seemed to me Fedor was doing nothing.
When they rolled over Fedor kicked once and had an arm up and looked like he was defending.It was so close to the stoppage though. Then again I couldn't see what Herb saw,did Fedors eyes roll?

Either way I can see a good argument from both sides of the story.



This is the best post on the issue IMO. I'm starting to think that Dean found like a 9 second window which was the worst possible time to stop the fight. If he had stopped the fight 5 seconds earlier, when Fedor was flat on his face I think people would've thought it was a great stoppage, and I think that if he waited 5 more seconds to see if Fedor could have recovered people would also be praising his decision to let the fight go on, but he jumped in at this really bizarre window of time between what looked like a knockout and a fast recovery.

Still am not sure where I stand. I generally think it's better to give fighters, especially fighters who have shown huge potential to recover from damage, the benefit of the doubt, and once he waited long enough to allow Fedor to turn and put his arms up, he probably should've given him a few more seconds to see if he was recovered enough to tie up.

-edit-
Yeah I think I'm on the bad stoppage side now that I've had a lot of time to think about it. Once Dean let it go to the point where Fedor spun and put his arms up, that has to be considered intelligent defense. If that is the case, either Dean stopped it too late, allowing Fedor to regain consciousness before stepping in, or he just stepped in too early to begin with, either way I think it was a bad decision, because at the exact time of the stoppage, Fedor was definitely making an attempt to defend.

I think it could very well have been stopped EARLIER and been a good stoppage, but at the moment of the stoppage Fedor was defending, so I have to say I disagree with it after much thought.



I'm a bit confused where your timeline is coming from. It all happened in just a few seconds. If he had stopped it 5 seconds earlier, the stoppage woul've been in Fedor's favor.

The GIF below shows just as Hendo goes from getting pounded on to a reversal and finishing it. As soon as Fedor goes out, Herb runs up to get a look at Fedor's face for confirmation. He sees he's out and begins to step in. It's at about the same time that Fedor comes to and begins to roll, but it's too late at that point. Herb sees a limp body and then checks his face to be sure...I would have a hard time with a ref not stopping it at that point. When I watched it live, I wasn't completely sold on the stoppage, but every time I watch it, especially from the proper angle, it makes more sense each and every time.




This is what it looks like to me. Dan pounds Fedors head,taking his back,Herb steps in to stop the bout,Fedors skull smeared in the canvas, but suddenly Fedor rolls however, by that time Herb had his mind made up. It looks as if Herb puts his left hand between the two as Fedor begins to roll.
I'm still debating this issue in my head. Still a tough call for me.
40ouncetpkid
8/1/11 3:52:01PM
Great stoppage? HELL NO. Good stoppage? eeeehhhh still pushing it. Bad stoppage? Not that either.

I can see where Herb Dean was coming from but I still think it was a pretty quick. It no doubt was an early quick stoppage, but not really bad either.
Kpro
8/1/11 10:12:30PM
Reading threads like these remind me of Greasegate type threads and make me puke in my mouth a little so I apologetically don't have anything to add to the conversation, but in an attempted hijack:

How cool would it be if they got the technology in MMA gloves that the NHL used to make the pucks have tracers so viewers could see where the puck was. Every punch has a blue or red tracer behind it. It would even be amazing to watch without hallucinogens.
mrsmiley
8/2/11 4:55:11AM

Posted by Kpro

Reading threads like these remind me of Greasegate type threads and make me puke in my mouth a little so I apologetically don't have anything to add to the conversation, but in an attempted hijack:

How cool would it be if they got the technology in MMA gloves that the NHL used to make the pucks have tracers so viewers could see where the puck was. Every punch has a blue or red tracer behind it. It would even be amazing to watch without hallucinogens.



Joe Rogan would be soooo spaced out!

I wonder if it would be possible to add psi indicators within the pads gloves or something to measure how powerful each strike is?
JimiMak
8/7/11 1:53:33PM
He was limp. Great stoppage. Even when he rolled over he wasn't defending his head or rolling with his hips to get guard. He wasn't trying to defend himself. He looked like someone who just woke up trying to push the dog off of him. I'm really surprised this is even a discussion on a good board like this. and no, he shouldn't consider Fedor's past. His job is fighter safety. Fighter goes unconscious = fight is over.

And as for the "back of the head" punches... threads about this fight and Vitor/Akiyama show me that most mma fans don't understand what is a foul and what is not, neither fight had illegal shots, at least not so blatantly illegal as to be called, at worst they were borderline and in neither case effected the outcome.
Pookie
8/10/11 1:46:01AM

Posted by JimiMak

And as for the "back of the head" punches... threads about this fight and Vitor/Akiyama show me that most mma fans don't understand what is a foul and what is not, neither fight had illegal shots, at least not so blatantly illegal as to be called, at worst they were borderline and in neither case effected the outcome.



I agree that it didn't really change the outcome, and that niether were blatant either. But you have got to be out of your mind if you think those punches didnt land to the back of the head. They are clearly a foul. Akiyama/Vitor moreso.
JimiMak
8/10/11 9:20:20AM
They were behind the ear, not on the spine. Not a foul. The refs understand the difference, most fans seem to not.
Pookie
8/11/11 12:57:45AM

Posted by JimiMak

They were behind the ear, not on the spine. Not a foul. The refs understand the difference, most fans seem to not.



Well then i'd have to say that most ref's do not know the difference. Because what you refer to as behind the ear, always begets referees to warn the fighter.
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