can someone please explain something to me...

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dannyfrank
10/5/08 9:45:25AM
okay, so i was reading my towns local newspaper this morning and saw an article that really made me mad.

a black business man by the name of Ward Connerly has been on a "state-by-state war against affirmative action." he is now being called a "race traitor" by many and is also being accused of "trying to profit off a campaign to outlaw equal opportunity." he has said that that is ridiculous because he makes $300,000 a year, and would have no motive to profit off a campaign that would ultimately bring no benefit to either him or his family. the reason that he is against affirmative action is because he says that it only "reinforces the perception [that minorities] are second-class citizens who need help to succeed."

that is what i've been saying about affirmative action FOR YEARS. now, what i need help trying to understand is: how is trying to get rid of a policy that values one race over another trying to "outlaw equal opportunity"? if you are a supporter of affirmative action, please try to explain this to me, because i am obviously lost. and please, i don't want this to turn into some argument, i just want this to be a reasonable discussion

sorry i couldn't give a link, but this was out of an actual newspaper
Rush
10/5/08 9:57:59AM
I agree. It baffles me too. It's like the feminist that wants to be treated as an "equal", but if you don't pull the chair out for them or let the door go in their face, they get all pissed off. Double standards and I hate them.



Get this strange story. I read this in paper too.

A high ranking (maybe CEO - I can't remember) guy in a company is fired (without severance) for viewing porn on a company computer. He was counter suing the company for severance because he said he was caught doing this before, but instead of being given a warning (or some form of disciplinary action), he was given a raise. He claimed that that response suggested that the company accepted what he did if not condoned it.

Now here is the kicker. Turns out not only the guy was denied severance, but he was also charged with sexual harassment. Why? Because the female IT person that was going through he surfing activity was offended by the stuff he searched. How messed up is that? Does that mean I can sue every webmaster if I stumble on their site and don't like their material? Give me a break.
dannyfrank
10/5/08 10:09:40AM
that's completely ridiculous! sexual harassment! maybe if he saw a chick walk by when he was looking at it and he said, "hey, baby, why don't you give me a hand-job while i watch some porn!" then that would be asexual harassment. and hell, if i got a raise for doing it once, you know id be on there every day. this world is starting to scare me
DCRage
10/5/08 10:30:49AM
Affirmative action also applies to gender in hiring, not just race. So what I take from what you posted is that he also may be trying to also put men over women in that regard.
dannyfrank
10/5/08 10:42:23AM

Posted by DCRage

Affirmative action also applies to gender in hiring, not just race. So what I take from what you posted is that he also may be trying to also put men over women in that regard.



well, it works the same way for men and women as it does race. making it so one race or gender is preferred over another is not equal opportunity. if a group of people wants to pick themselves up, they they have to work. they should not be able to expect handouts, because that is discrimination.
Darnok
10/5/08 12:05:51PM
Good thread
bullettdodger
10/5/08 12:16:00PM
I dunno about the race vs race argument, i agree with you guys for the most part i must say.. but when the woman wan equal rights and equal pay, at least in the US, i'd like to see em have to fill out a draft card for financial aid just like i did..
EQUAL RIGHTS?
EQUAL PAY?
OK....
EQUAL RESPONSIBILITY
Chivalry is dead and its women that killed it
Jackelope
10/5/08 12:31:51PM
It's more like Lawyers killed it. Along with everything else moral in this nation. Lawyers are out of control.

ASU Law School just released a study that showed black students were 1,100X as likely to get accepted into the law school given a level playing field. If affirmative action isn't wrong how the hell can people explain that???



http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/260220

http://chronicle.com/news/article/5252/report-accuses-arizona-public-law-schools-of-bias-against-white-applicants
Manfred
10/5/08 12:51:02PM
I've been against Affirmative Action since the Buffalo (where I'm orig. from) School System was FORCED to hire some black and latino teachers even though they FAILED the NY State teaching exam because of quotas! White teachers who passed didn't get a job. Talk about reverse discrimination!

Sorry, but I care more about the quality of my kids teachers than the color of them.


Sexual harassment is a whole other can of worms but I'll just say it's gotten out of control.

People need to toughen up a little.
dannyfrank
10/5/08 12:53:25PM

Posted by Jackelope

It's more like Lawyers killed it. Along with everything else moral in this nation. Lawyers are out of control.

ASU Law School just released a study that showed black students were 1,100X as likely to get accepted into the law school given a level playing field. If affirmative action isn't wrong how the hell can people explain that???



http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/260220

http://chronicle.com/news/article/5252/report-accuses-arizona-public-law-schools-of-bias-against-white-applicants



seriously. they say that they need to "promote diversity" but even if that's true, a law school is not the type of school that should be doing it. law is a very important thing in this country. if i'm in court, i would want to have the best possible lawyer i could get to represent me, not someone who had a lower grade and got their degree because of their race. but hey, that's just me
aaa9erh8er
10/5/08 12:53:44PM
i think the best man for the job is the best man for the job period ive lived long enuff to no that all races have shitty members i dont agree with affirmative actio. alltho on that sexual harresment thing wtf is that if you look at porn and get a rais im looking at porn all day lol buttheres always gotta be a scapgoat
mikevolz
10/5/08 1:02:35PM
affirmative action in the workplace im undecided on, i think it will be weeded out as the next generation or two start passing into office.

BUT, i do firmly agree with it in an academic setting (especially college).

for the main reason that, it helps get them into college (and forces colleges to not be as discriminatory), but it has no chance of keeping them in.
dannyfrank
10/5/08 1:07:56PM

Posted by mikevolz

affirmative action in the workplace im undecided on, i think it will be weeded out as the next generation or two start passing into office.

BUT, i do firmly agree with it in an academic setting (especially college).

for the main reason that, it helps get them into college (and forces colleges to not be as discriminatory), but it has no chance of keeping them in.



well, i think that the best and only real way for colleges to not discriminate would be to not ask what race an applicant is IMO
jiujitsufreak74
10/5/08 1:11:39PM

Posted by dannyfrank

okay, so i was reading my towns local newspaper this morning and saw an article that really made me mad.

a black business man by the name of Ward Connerly has been on a "state-by-state war against affirmative action." he is now being called a "race traitor" by many and is also being accused of "trying to profit off a campaign to outlaw equal opportunity." he has said that that is ridiculous because he makes $300,000 a year, and would have no motive to profit off a campaign that would ultimately bring no benefit to either him or his family. the reason that he is against affirmative action is because he says that it only "reinforces the perception [that minorities] are second-class citizens who need help to succeed."

that is what i've been saying about affirmative action FOR YEARS. now, what i need help trying to understand is: how is trying to get rid of a policy that values one race over another trying to "outlaw equal opportunity"? if you are a supporter of affirmative action, please try to explain this to me, because i am obviously lost. and please, i don't want this to turn into some argument, i just want this to be a reasonable discussion

sorry i couldn't give a link, but this was out of an actual newspaper



i 100% agree with you, it does not achieve equality in today's society but rather promotes inequality. as a middle class white citizen i cannot help but to disagree with affirmative action and i support this man and his mission. it does really reinforce the idea that "minorities" are second class citizens and it defeats its own purpose. i think that as a society we have established a relatively level playing field that has no use for affirmative action anymore.


Posted by bullettdodger

I dunno about the race vs race argument, i agree with you guys for the most part i must say.. but when the woman wan equal rights and equal pay, at least in the US, i'd like to see em have to fill out a draft card for financial aid just like i did..
EQUAL RIGHTS?
EQUAL PAY?
OK....
EQUAL RESPONSIBILITY
Chivalry is dead and its women that killed it



i just had an argument with my English teacher about this on Friday. it's like you read my mind
Lord_Lenny
10/5/08 1:24:57PM

Posted by Manfred

I've been against Affirmative Action since the Buffalo (where I'm orig. from) School System was FORCED to hire some black and latino teachers even though they FAILED the NY State teaching exam because of quotas! White teachers who passed didn't get a job. Talk about reverse discrimination!

Sorry, but I care more about the quality of my kids teachers than the color of them.


Sexual harassment is a whole other can of worms but I'll just say it's gotten out of control.

People need to toughen up a little.


That's messed up, i have also heard of women fireman, who cant physically complete their task, and minorities with lower scores getting hired over white males because of this. That's scary knowing some people's property and lives are in the hands of less competent firemen/women. Religion, Race, and Gender shouldn't have an advantage over any other race, gender or religion. It's minority supremacy is what it is, i doubt Martin Luther King would be in favor of affirmative action, at least not anymore (maybe the first generation of slaves deserved Affirmative Action but not their great great great great grandkids), its things like affirmative action and white guilt heaped on the world from Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton that remind us how we are different, not that we should have an equal chance. Racism will always survive as long as their is stuff like this in the world
mikevolz
10/5/08 1:33:18PM

Posted by dannyfrank


Posted by mikevolz

affirmative action in the workplace im undecided on, i think it will be weeded out as the next generation or two start passing into office.

BUT, i do firmly agree with it in an academic setting (especially college).

for the main reason that, it helps get them into college (and forces colleges to not be as discriminatory), but it has no chance of keeping them in.



well, i think that the best and only real way for colleges to not discriminate would be to not ask what race an applicant is IMO



true, but they can generally get a feel, by where they are from, and their application. Part of the problem is acceptance decisions, are usually left to one single person reading over the application, and if they don't like someone they can get rid of their app. without seeming prejudice. but, my opinion is, sure put the lowest scored people in a college, if they pass, they deserve it, if they fail out, race had nothing to do with it.
dannyfrank
10/5/08 1:41:46PM

Posted by mikevolz


Posted by dannyfrank


Posted by mikevolz

affirmative action in the workplace im undecided on, i think it will be weeded out as the next generation or two start passing into office.

BUT, i do firmly agree with it in an academic setting (especially college).

for the main reason that, it helps get them into college (and forces colleges to not be as discriminatory), but it has no chance of keeping them in.



well, i think that the best and only real way for colleges to not discriminate would be to not ask what race an applicant is IMO



true, but they can generally get a feel, by where they are from, and their application. Part of the problem is acceptance decisions, are usually left to one single person reading over the application, and if they don't like someone they can get rid of their app. without seeming prejudice. but, my opinion is, sure put the lowest scored people in a college, if they pass, they deserve it, if they fail out, race had nothing to do with it.



i kind of get where you're coming from, but i still just don't believe that affirmative action should have a place in any sort of decision making process. the whole idea just seems contradictory to what they are trying to accomplish
Kracker_Jap
10/5/08 2:27:53PM

Posted by dannyfrank


Posted by mikevolz

affirmative action in the workplace im undecided on, i think it will be weeded out as the next generation or two start passing into office.

BUT, i do firmly agree with it in an academic setting (especially college).

for the main reason that, it helps get them into college (and forces colleges to not be as discriminatory), but it has no chance of keeping them in.



well, i think that the best and only real way for colleges to not discriminate would be to not ask what race an applicant is IMO



The example goes as this.....

If you are a native american woman from a rich casino owning tribe with very bad grades the colleges will accept you

But if your a poor white male with average grades they will choose the native american female above you......

Thank you affirmative action
decken
10/5/08 4:17:33PM
White males historically have ran this country and business in this country. The point of affirmative action is to help out groups of people that have been historically disadvantaged (woman and african americans). Affirmative action allows for this to happen by giving minorities opportunities that are not there because of these historical factors. It is not something that should be in place forever but should be in place. It is a way to give minorities as a whole to slowly get to the same playing field as the majority so affirmative action is no longer needed and people can be judge slowly on there merit. Chart Blacks and latinos still make less money than whites so as a group they are at a disadvantage because of this. Affirmative action is in place to speed up the process so there is not a significant difference between groups. That does not mean that at sometimes it is not fair or that people always apply it in the appropriate manner.
dannyfrank
10/5/08 5:22:01PM

Posted by decken

White males historically have ran this country and business in this country. The point of affirmative action is to help out groups of people that have been historically disadvantaged (woman and african americans). Affirmative action allows for this to happen by giving minorities opportunities that are not there because of these historical factors. It is not something that should be in place forever but should be in place. It is a way to give minorities as a whole to slowly get to the same playing field as the majority so affirmative action is no longer needed and people can be judge slowly on there merit. Chart Blacks and latinos still make less money than whites so as a group they are at a disadvantage because of this. Affirmative action is in place to speed up the process so there is not a significant difference between groups. That does not mean that at sometimes it is not fair or that people always apply it in the appropriate manner.



i think that affirmative action was necessary at one point in time, but now i think all it is doing is making people think that they do not have to work to get what they want. it is really doing more harm than good in this day in age

EDIT: i also don't think that that chart has anything to do with blacks and latinos being discriminated against. now, im not being racist because it's true, but in south carolina, blacks and latinos usually are paid less because most of them have crappy jobs. they have crappy jobs because they choose to drop out of school. but, those blacks and latinos that do well in school and go to college end up doing well for themselves. like i said in a previous post, if someone wants to be uplifted, they can't expect to have someone else do it for them, they've got to put in the time and effort themselves.
Rush
10/5/08 6:53:42PM
Affirmative action, by definition, is (or should be) to give jobs and opportunities to minorities (women and non-white anglo males) in a situation where there are two equally qualified candidates.

I presume that a few decades ago, a lot of smart and talented women, blacks, etc. were denied jobs or opportunities because of their gender or race, but not because of a lack of skills. These days, the situation has gotten out of control. People take advantage of it and employers are scared of being accused of going against it. Hence we end up with a lot of people in jobs that are not qualified.

The whole situation just brings society down. It's a perfect example of how the people themselves have to change, but probably never will.
tdietel01
10/5/08 10:23:59PM
If minorities want to be treated equally they need to stop walking around with thier hands out. if you want equality dont take a job because your a minoriy, dont get a special grant because you are a minority, quit blaming problems on "the man", dont have parades that are just for you. be proud of your heritage but dont use it to get what you want. This is NOT a time where you get arrested just because you are black, latin or gay. I go to a college where there is a black and latin student union!?!? if I started a white student union i garauntee it would be considered racist. you CANT say you wanted to be treated equally and then take advantage ofyour race or gender. that is like me saying im not racist but i am a member of the KKK!?!?
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