Elite Performance...

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haggiswashere
12/11/09 11:29:14AM
So last week I went to the gym everyday for a free trial. I have no BJJ training or anything I was frequently asking the coach for help, and pretty much everyone knew I was new. But striking day came along. We did ground striking. They had us doing an exercise where one guy was on top with gloves (my partner) and one guy on bottom without (me) they said the only way for the guy on bottom to win was to submit, get up, or sweep. I don't know the proper way to do any of those. The kid wailed on me and I got up twice. Feeling dizzy I told him I couldn't do more. The kid coaching (oh by the way Jeremy Horn was not there all week so the assistant coach taught...and he was not there last night so another guy taught.) pressured me into going another. I couldn't get out and got knocked out... They had me sit on the side and drink some water. As i sat i noticed no one else was going full contact. I was seeing doubles and called my girlfriend and asked her to make the hour drive to get me because I could not see. Long story short I went to the hospital and they told me I had a concussion. And I am thinking WTF? It was my first striking class and I get knocked out and treated like I am a baby for getting knocked out. There were a few students who helped me up and talked to me but other than them I was ignored. Do you think this was a fluke thing or do you think the guy didn't realize I'm new or do you think I should find a new gym? I had heard nothing but good things and the BJJ classes were very cool but the last day was ridiculous. Am i being a baby?
submissionartist1
12/11/09 12:25:52PM
Hang in there they probly were testing you to see if they could break you do jo and gyms are very pushy sometimes not to be mean but to sepperate the people who really wanna be there remeber this sport is 90% mental your first ko is verry emotional and drinking water helps to pus the blood thru swollen veins and re hydrate and other stuff , leave it in the gym as the saying goes.
jae_1833
12/11/09 12:33:22PM
I would think (if this really is an elite gym and it sounds like it is if Horn teaches there) that they were just testing the waters with you as well. However I am kind of an A-Hole when it comes to stuff like this and when angered am pretty strong/good fighter. So what I would do is probably return the favor in my next practice and puposefully go a bit overboard and hurt the guy right back because I get pissed off pretty easily. Plus man, it's like prison rules.....can't get treated like a B, you know. I have done this a couple of times with mixed results, with some guys they stopped training with me...but wouldn't ever F with me again....with others we got into it real good and became awesome training partners who would go to war in the sessions so roughly that others would be pretty shocked. Fun times!
grappler0000
12/11/09 12:51:45PM
IMHO, a student in his first week should not be put in a situation to be KO'd. Was this supposed to be drilling or more like a sparring session? Either way, I don't think your partner had a full understanding of what he should've been doing. The fact that you being knocked out wasn't even questioned by the staff raises a red flag for me. Things can happen in the heat of the moment during sparring, but this doesn't sit right with me. Having a name run the gym is good and all, but the rest of the staff really needs to be knowledgeable for it to work properly.
SmileR
12/11/09 1:22:42PM
I'm all for jumping in the deep end with training and I do agree with the hazing of new members to a extent but I'd never expect a new student with little or no experience to do full contact sparing in the first week.
I wouldn't say don't go back but if you do try letting the guy your training with know you have little experience and ask them to go a little slower so you can see what is happening with the transitions and techniques.
Also it might be worth looking into smaller less competitive gyms to gain a base before you jump in the deep end with guys looking to do it professionally.
Aaronno9
12/11/09 1:36:49PM

Posted by SmileR

Also it might be worth looking into smaller less competitive gyms to gain a base before you jump in the deep end with guys looking to do it professionally.





Still, its pretty poor coaching if you said you werent feeling right and they made you go again. Fair enough, if you where just struggling with cardio, then its not a bad thing to pushed to breaking. But when its your first session and your not feeling right with some guy wailing on your face, you should of been allowed to sit out, or the other guy told to ease up.

Mabeys you could stick to the bjj classes for now, then when your ready to be pulling off sweeps and subs, go back to the striking classes.
RyanC
12/11/09 2:39:33PM
This sounds like a terrible gym. At a good gym there is not going to be any such thing as hazing, especially at a free trial class. What in the hell would ever make you want to go back there after this?

The gym I train at would never even allow the type of training you did for long time members. We are not there to KO each other. We are not there to hurt each other period. We are a team. We are there to push each other, and help each other grow as martial artists. What good does it do to hurt someone so they either can't come back, or don't want to come back?

All of our sparring is done with protective padding, and strikes are light enough that a KO will never take place. Grappling is definitely much more aggressive, and full strength, but no one uses submissions to injure. Everyone wants their training partners to be back on the mat with them.

I'm very disturbed that there are even gyms that exist practicing this sort of thing. I would have absolutely nothing to do with them.
haggiswashere
12/11/09 4:22:15PM
It was just a drill. Sparring comes later at night. But the thing that gets me too is the strikes that put me away were all illegal too. Everyone of them to the back of the head and neck. The back of my head is swollen near where my neck and head meet. I had a tiny bruise on my cheek and forehead but thats all on my face. I have kickboxing experience but like I said no experience on the ground or ground striking which we were doing. You'd think they would teach me a little more first. BTW there were other new students who were all being treated like i would treat a new guy so I don't think this was a testing the waters thing. I could be wrong. I dunno. They are giving me a free class when Jeremy Horn comes back to actually train with him. And when I called them to talk to them I simply asked if thats how most classes go and her and the Assistant Instructor I mentioned earlier seemed outraged that I was knocked out and received a concussion so maybe it was a fluke.. maybe they were just acting that way to get me to join. I dunno.
RyanC
12/11/09 4:29:25PM
Like I said I'd have nothing to do with the place after that experience. Jeremy Horn ain't that great. If the gym allows that crap to go on, and has members with that mentality I wouldn't train there. You'd get thrown out of my gym if you pulled that kind of crap.
haggiswashere
12/11/09 6:19:16PM

Posted by Aaronno9

Still, its pretty poor coaching if you said you werent feeling right and they made you go again. Fair enough, if you where just struggling with cardio, then its not a bad thing to pushed to breaking.



I meant I felt dizzy because I was rocked. Sorry
submissionartist1
12/11/09 10:52:41PM

Posted by RyanC

Like I said I'd have nothing to do with the place after that experience. Jeremy Horn ain't that great. If the gym allows that crap to go on, and has members with that mentality I wouldn't train there. You'd get thrown out of my gym if you pulled that kind of crap.



If you live in an area without alot of training options get some dvd's. bass ruttens big books of combat and some good friends and help each other train. titleboxing.com has great deals on gear. make sure u trust the people you train with. you will spend less this way in the begining get some experience just rollin and stuff.
telnights
12/12/09 3:36:23PM
That's just poor coaching. Coaching like that can get people hurt or even killed. I'm not against tossing newbies in there to see what they have (with head gear) but once you said you didn't feel right they should have checked you out and that should have been the end of it. If you are unsure and not feeling ok then you shouldn't be in there sparing more less going full contact.
jocka
12/14/09 1:34:27PM
I trained in multiple gyms over the years and i never seen that before, i heard of it like your story but this is very stupid. Someone with no experience should never get KOed in a class.

I think the problem is more the partner that you had, at my gym only advance guys would go with new guys because they know how to control their power.

I think you should give the gym another chance and do like i would do, spare with the guy that was hitting on the ground and hurt him. If you say you have kickboxing experience use it :) thats just me and i tend to be a hammer head so.

Good luck with the training.
Svartorm
12/14/09 10:30:57PM
There's a lot of very poor advice in this thread, and those posting should read the Training Forum rules thread, and make sure they're qualified to be giving advice.

As for your issue, if the staff were upset about it after you brought it up, obviously that wasn't supposed to happen. There are some gyms that are famous for this kind of thing, like MFS and Chute Boxe, but the majority of gyms aren't going to throw you to the lions. It sounds more like the guy you were with didn't know what he was doing and decided to pound on you. If thats the case and you want to continue training there, don't work with that guy again.

And whatever you do, DONT go out there and try to hurt the guy. If you know he did it intentionally, let the instructor know and don't work with him again. If he did it on accident, you have no business hurting him on purpose, as he might have been unaware of your experience level on the mat or got caught up in the moment. Unfortunetely at this stage in MMA, there are a ton of meatheads out there looking to train, and have more muscles and aggression than brains. Just don't work with those guys again.
jocka
12/15/09 5:42:12PM

Posted by Svartorm

There's a lot of very poor advice in this thread, and those posting should read the Training Forum rules thread, and make sure they're qualified to be giving advice.

As for your issue, if the staff were upset about it after you brought it up, obviously that wasn't supposed to happen. There are some gyms that are famous for this kind of thing, like MFS and Chute Boxe, but the majority of gyms aren't going to throw you to the lions. It sounds more like the guy you were with didn't know what he was doing and decided to pound on you. If thats the case and you want to continue training there, don't work with that guy again.

And whatever you do, DONT go out there and try to hurt the guy. If you know he did it intentionally, let the instructor know and don't work with him again. If he did it on accident, you have no business hurting him on purpose, as he might have been unaware of your experience level on the mat or got caught up in the moment. Unfortunetely at this stage in MMA, there are a ton of meatheads out there looking to train, and have more muscles and aggression than brains. Just don't work with those guys again.



From what i can gather you seem like a guy that has been training for a while, don't take this the wrong way but you have never hurt someone intentionally in training in a revenge situation.

What i mean by that is per example in sparring we normally keep it around 50% (at my gym), if someone starts going all out in me (which is fine) he needs to except me to start hitting harder and obviously i will want to hurt it, i have to say that i would not go all out on someone's face in sparring but on the body and legs i definitely would for the exceptions of knees of course way too easy to break ribs.

I probably should of specify what i meant by trying to hurt the person.
telnights
12/15/09 6:11:45PM
The problem with this is the trainees and his training partners experience level and his partners aggression level. Its the coach's job to know his fighters and to know what level they are at and their aggression level when training. If you have a guy that always goes full out you don't put him with a guy that's new at this. As a training coach you should always know your fighters and match them up with the right training partners. Now I will say I don't get to deal with new guys very much as I'm an advanced trainer but still I feel this was a mistake by the coach by matching him with the wrong person and by his training part being overly aggressive. Now that doesn't mean the hole gym is to blame as he said it was a stand in coach. I will say guys that get pissed or get out of hand most of the time don't last long in a lot of gyms because they cant have guys starting fights and getting hurt themselves or hurting a fighter that's getting ready for a fight.


Posted by jocka
From what i can gather you seem like a guy that has been training for a while, don't take this the wrong way but you have never hurt someone intentionally in training in a revenge situation.

What i mean by that is per example in sparring we normally keep it around 50% (at my gym), if someone starts going all out in me (which is fine) he needs to except me to start hitting harder and obviously i will want to hurt it, i have to say that i would not go all out on someone's face in sparring but on the body and legs i definitely would for the exceptions of knees of course way too easy to break ribs.

I probably should of specify what i meant by trying to hurt the person.



If your hurting someone intentionally then that isn't training that's fighting.

Jackelope
12/15/09 6:49:57PM
Tel and Svartorm pretty much hit on the points I would have.

At my gym, which isn't just some hole in the wall- it's a well known gym that puts out a lot of good fighters- if you start fighting like that then you will be punished. If people want to get tough and act like a badass then you will be forced to spar with one of the pros, and he will make sure you don't ever get tough on someone and try to hurt them again. Either that or you will be asked to leave class or put through hellacious physical punishment in the form of conditioning drills.

I would never condone anyone in the gym KO'ing someone or trying to hurt them intentionally. You're there to train- not hurt each other. The only reason why I threw out the facts about my gym is to show that even the pros don't train this way. They train to get better. Nobody gets better sitting on the side nursing an injury.
jocka
12/16/09 1:15:19PM

Posted by Jackelope

Tel and Svartorm pretty much hit on the points I would have.

At my gym, which isn't just some hole in the wall- it's a well known gym that puts out a lot of good fighters- if you start fighting like that then you will be punished. If people want to get tough and act like a badass then you will be forced to spar with one of the pros, and he will make sure you don't ever get tough on someone and try to hurt them again. Either that or you will be asked to leave class or put through hellacious physical punishment in the form of conditioning drills.

I would never condone anyone in the gym KO'ing someone or trying to hurt them intentionally. You're there to train- not hurt each other. The only reason why I threw out the facts about my gym is to show that even the pros don't train this way. They train to get better. Nobody gets better sitting on the side nursing an injury.



Just to provide a bit more information i have a few amateur muay thai fights and I train with professional fighters on a daily basis, from experience they are never the one to go all out on you since they do know how to control their power.

The only time i ever wanted to hurt someone and once again i am not talking braking bones or KOing someone I am talking about a nice liver shot or just a nice body shot to the stomach.

Let me ask you then, if you are sparring with an experimented guy not a newbie not a pro that has a fight coming up and that person start going all out how would you react, how would you deal with the situation?
haggiswashere
12/16/09 6:32:52PM
Jeremy Horn took me aside yesterday. It was kinda crazy talking to someone like him haha. He assured me that what happened was not normal or following gym policy. He seemed genuinely pissed about what happened. I trained the kickboxing again last night and had alot of fun. It was a whole different atmosphere. very very cool. I'm glad i gave it one more shot. Jeremy is way cool. It made me laugh because he introduced himself when he talked to me... like I wouldn't already know haha. He is a very nice guy and is a very good teacher. Alot of the other students and pro fighters talked to me and all felt the same way I did about what happened on thursday. Very pleased with the gym. Thanks everybody. I'm glad I tried again!
jocka
12/16/09 6:59:36PM

Posted by haggiswashere

Jeremy Horn took me aside yesterday. It was kinda crazy talking to someone like him haha. He assured me that what happened was not normal or following gym policy. He seemed genuinely pissed about what happened. I trained the kickboxing again last night and had alot of fun. It was a whole different atmosphere. very very cool. I'm glad i gave it one more shot. Jeremy is way cool. It made me laugh because he introduced himself when he talked to me... like I wouldn't already know haha. He is a very nice guy and is a very good teacher. Alot of the other students and pro fighters talked to me and all felt the same way I did about what happened on thursday. Very pleased with the gym. Thanks everybody. I'm glad I tried again!



good stuff happy to hear you gave it another shot good luck with training
Jackelope
12/17/09 12:39:12PM

Posted by jocka


Posted by Jackelope

Tel and Svartorm pretty much hit on the points I would have.

At my gym, which isn't just some hole in the wall- it's a well known gym that puts out a lot of good fighters- if you start fighting like that then you will be punished. If people want to get tough and act like a badass then you will be forced to spar with one of the pros, and he will make sure you don't ever get tough on someone and try to hurt them again. Either that or you will be asked to leave class or put through hellacious physical punishment in the form of conditioning drills.

I would never condone anyone in the gym KO'ing someone or trying to hurt them intentionally. You're there to train- not hurt each other. The only reason why I threw out the facts about my gym is to show that even the pros don't train this way. They train to get better. Nobody gets better sitting on the side nursing an injury.



Just to provide a bit more information i have a few amateur muay thai fights and I train with professional fighters on a daily basis, from experience they are never the one to go all out on you since they do know how to control their power.

The only time i ever wanted to hurt someone and once again i am not talking braking bones or KOing someone I am talking about a nice liver shot or just a nice body shot to the stomach.

Let me ask you then, if you are sparring with an experimented guy not a newbie not a pro that has a fight coming up and that person start going all out how would you react, how would you deal with the situation?



Well I have been in that situation and it's a completely different one than what the OP laid out.

When I train with guys who have fights coming up I know there is a certain level of intensity expected. The way we do this is by doing round robin type training. In these drills it's expected that you're going to get slammed, tweaked, and maybe a bloody nose or black eye. That's fine. That's two experienced guys going at it with a ramped up intensity level because they're training to fight.

The situation the OP laid out was a new guy trying out a new gym with some dude who clearly knew wtf he was doing wailing on him. That's something I'd never, ever support. The guy who wailed on him ought to be punished harshly for acting that way.
RyanC
12/20/09 9:46:32AM

Posted by haggiswashere

Jeremy Horn took me aside yesterday. It was kinda crazy talking to someone like him haha. He assured me that what happened was not normal or following gym policy. He seemed genuinely pissed about what happened. I trained the kickboxing again last night and had alot of fun. It was a whole different atmosphere. very very cool. I'm glad i gave it one more shot. Jeremy is way cool. It made me laugh because he introduced himself when he talked to me... like I wouldn't already know haha. He is a very nice guy and is a very good teacher. Alot of the other students and pro fighters talked to me and all felt the same way I did about what happened on thursday. Very pleased with the gym. Thanks everybody. I'm glad I tried again!



Awesome. Way glad to hear it worked out. Sounds like you basically just ran into one bad partner, and not a gym filled with them. Happy training.
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