ELITE XC DISCUSSION HERE

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Posted by Savy

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Posted by aceprone

Not to change the subject a little bit, but my thought is still connected. I know commisioned rules in the US state that you can't knee or kick a downed opponent in the head. But an interesting twist to this shamrock incident what if those knees connected to the side of the head and not behind the head, would those strikes been legal? The reason why I'm saying this is because Shamrock was the downed opponent, not Renzo. Now I haven't read anywhere if a guy on the bottom (the "downed" opponent) can legally knee to the head. Anythoughts of info on this?

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Renzo was downed as well. A fighter becomes downed when any part of his body besides his two feet come in contact w/ the mat.
Because Renzo was a "downed fighter," Frank's knees to Renzos head were all 100% illegal techniques under the rules.
On top of that, some of those knees struck base of the skull/back of the neck/spine region. That is ALWAYS a big no no! I don't care what continent you fight on, no promotion allows strikes to the spine.
Frank got exactly what he deserved.
Thank God Renzo is OK.
I would understand if Renzo refuses to fight Frank again. There are many game fighters around who will play by the rules.

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Shooto allows strikes to the back of the head.

Do they allow you to strike the cervical vertebrae on the back of a guys neck??

Okay, so I got to see the fight this morning and I can certainly see what all the hubub is about. Now, IMO, the knees were blatant and clearly illegal techniques. And yes it's true that in japan you can knee to the head on the ground, but not knowing the rules can't really count here because Frank hasn't fought in Japan in almost 10 years. In this instance a no contest is not appropriate. If the strikes were accidental then I would favor a no contest. Or as we talked about earlier, going to the cards if it is the first half of the scheduled bout. Even if Shamrock didn't intend to break the rules, or he knew it was illegal or not, he did it even after warning. It's the old adage about ignorance of the law. I disagree with that rule. But it is the rule.
This incident does not however affect in any way how I feel about Frank as a fighter. He is still the man. Great fighters tend to be a bit cockier. This doesn't mean he is a lesser fighter. I do also think that Gracie was less hurt than he let on. He saw the chance for an easy W and took it. I hope he feels that a speedy rematch is in order. How much pride can you take from this sort of win. This bout was promoted as the fight between the two great houses. If Gracie would have continued it would have been a point deduction and they would have finished. A "W" is a "W", but a DQ is hollow.
Both Frank and Renzo are warriors, deserving of every praise they have ever recieved. I am unsatisfied and hope they settle this thing once and for all.

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Posted by Savy

Do they allow you to strike the cervical vertebrae on the back of a guys neck??

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Yes, they do.

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Posted by mrsumo

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Posted by Savy

Do they allow you to strike the cervical vertebrae on the back of a guys neck??

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Yes, they do.

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strikes to the spine are NOT allowed!

Prove it was to the spine and not his back. Pressure point strikes are not allowed. Nothing more specific than that.

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Posted by mrsumo

Prove it was to the spine and not his back. Pressure point strikes are not allowed. Nothing more specific than that.

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what?

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Posted by mrsumo

Okay, so I got to see the fight this morning and I can certainly see what all the hubub is about. Now, IMO, the knees were blatant and clearly illegal techniques. And yes it's true that in japan you can knee to the head on the ground, but not knowing the rules can't really count here because Frank hasn't fought in Japan in almost 10 years. In this instance a no contest is not appropriate. If the strikes were accidental then I would favor a no contest. Or as we talked about earlier, going to the cards if it is the first half of the scheduled bout. Even if Shamrock didn't intend to break the rules, or he knew it was illegal or not, he did it even after warning. It's the old adage about ignorance of the law. I disagree with that rule. But it is the rule.
This incident does not however affect in any way how I feel about Frank as a fighter. He is still the man. Great fighters tend to be a bit cockier. This doesn't mean he is a lesser fighter. I do also think that Gracie was less hurt than he let on. He saw the chance for an easy W and took it. I hope he feels that a speedy rematch is in order. How much pride can you take from this sort of win. This bout was promoted as the fight between the two great houses. If Gracie would have continued it would have been a point deduction and they would have finished. A "W" is a "W", but a DQ is hollow.
Both Frank and Renzo are warriors, deserving of every praise they have ever recieved. I am unsatisfied and hope they settle this thing once and for all.

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Thanks for getting back to us on this.

The entire thing is too fishy to sort out at this point with the ridiculously short hospital stay, the post-fight interviews and whatnot.

I wish I had this on video to watch it again, but was I imaging it when Herb Dean raised Shamrocks hand to declare him the winner?

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Posted by Svartorm

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Posted by mrsumo

Okay, so I got to see the fight this morning and I can certainly see what all the hubub is about. Now, IMO, the knees were blatant and clearly illegal techniques. And yes it's true that in japan you can knee to the head on the ground, but not knowing the rules can't really count here because Frank hasn't fought in Japan in almost 10 years. In this instance a no contest is not appropriate. If the strikes were accidental then I would favor a no contest. Or as we talked about earlier, going to the cards if it is the first half of the scheduled bout. Even if Shamrock didn't intend to break the rules, or he knew it was illegal or not, he did it even after warning. It's the old adage about ignorance of the law. I disagree with that rule. But it is the rule.
This incident does not however affect in any way how I feel about Frank as a fighter. He is still the man. Great fighters tend to be a bit cockier. This doesn't mean he is a lesser fighter. I do also think that Gracie was less hurt than he let on. He saw the chance for an easy W and took it. I hope he feels that a speedy rematch is in order. How much pride can you take from this sort of win. This bout was promoted as the fight between the two great houses. If Gracie would have continued it would have been a point deduction and they would have finished. A "W" is a "W", but a DQ is hollow.
Both Frank and Renzo are warriors, deserving of every praise they have ever recieved. I am unsatisfied and hope they settle this thing once and for all.

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Thanks for getting back to us on this.

The entire thing is too fishy to sort out at this point with the ridiculously short hospital stay, the post-fight interviews and whatnot.

I wish I had this on video to watch it again, but was I imaging it when Herb Dean raised Shamrocks hand to declare him the winner?

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he was raising his had to notify the judges he was deducting a point...

I've never seen that before. Generally they bring the fighter to his corner, so the fighter and his corner are notified that hes receieved a foul, then the ref will walk to the judges side of the cage/ring and inform the judges to make note of the foul.

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Posted by Trapt1nw0nder

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Posted by mrsumo

Prove it was to the spine and not his back. Pressure point strikes are not allowed. Nothing more specific than that.

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what?

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This line of discussion was about the rules in shooto. In shooto and in Pride hits to the back of the neck and on the back happen often. There may or may not be a specific rule on striking the sping, but there isn't any differentation between the spine and the back. Witth the Shamrock Gracie fight, there is a very specific rule about this, and it was indeed violated.

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Posted by Svartorm

I've never seen that before. Generally they bring the fighter to his corner, so the fighter and his corner are notified that hes receieved a foul, then the ref will walk to the judges side of the cage/ring and inform the judges to make note of the foul.

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This is where a yellowcard might be handy. Or like in wrestling, colored wristbands to identify which fighter is being referred to.

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Posted by aceprone

by the way here are commisioned rules on illegal strikes. Herb dean made the right call, argue or not, here are the rules.

Disqualification: a "warning" will be given when a fighter commits a foul or illegal action or does not follow the referee's instruction. Three warnings will result in a disqualification. Moreover, if a fighter is injured and unable to continue due to a deliberate illegal technique from his opponent, the opponent will be disqualified.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts#Common_rules

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Well, that;s clear, obviously the DQ is warranted. As far as the part where Herb was deducting a point. Frank tried to raise his own off hand to make himself look victorious IMO. I agree there needs to be a quick rematch, but I really was dissapointed in Frank ( especially his post fight comments) and until he fight's and beats someone in the top 10 ( heck even top 20, have him fight Villasenor) I wish he would just be quiet. This isn't 1999 and he is no longer top dog IMO.

I respect Josh Gross as one of the best MMA reporters out there. Here's his take on the fight: (and the rest of the card)

Gross Article


It's a good read from someone who was there and knows his stuff. Excerps:

"Instead of becoming a star in his coming out party on premium cable, Shamrock turned into an excuse-making blowhard after being disqualified Saturday for an illegal knee to the head while the middleweights were on the floor. "

"Beyond ridiculous was Shamrock’s assertion that he was unfamiliar with rules outlawing knees or kicks to the head of a downed fighter."

Excellent point. Gross is not the type to say something so blatant like that without reason IMO. I would like to add any fight card where he women have the best fight does not bode well for the future.

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Posted by Manfred

I respect Josh Gross as one of the best MMA reporters out there. Here's his take on the fight: (and the rest of the card)

Gross Article


It's a good read from someone who was there and knows his stuff. Excerps:

"Instead of becoming a star in his coming out party on premium cable, Shamrock turned into an excuse-making blowhard after being disqualified Saturday for an illegal knee to the head while the middleweights were on the floor. "

"Beyond ridiculous was Shamrock’s assertion that he was unfamiliar with rules outlawing knees or kicks to the head of a downed fighter."

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These are my thoughts too. There is no way that Frank COULD NOT have known that those knees were illegal. If he did he is a frickin moron. Who signs a huge contract to fight then doesnt even look at the rules?

If Frank was that ignorant it is a message to all fighters. Take 5 minutes and look at the orgs rules you are fighting for.
Hell arent refrees usually supposed to meet with fighters before matchs and discuss the rules?
I Don't think Frank, someone in the game so long. Could honestly believe that those knees were legal. i think he was in a very bad and embarassing position and he got desperte. He wanted a way out and he got one. Too bad it was a worse way to lose than anything else. Rather than just looking like he had a bad night, Frank came out looking like a Ass and someon who wasnt at the top anymore.

Renzo backstage after the fight:

Link

He looks.. well not right

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Posted by Manfred

Renzo backstage after the fight:

Link

He looks.. well not right

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Wow your right. Josh Gross said that he was vomitting and shit.

he looks pretty sick

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Posted by hippysmacker

Excellent point. Gross is not the type to say something so blatant like that without reason IMO. I would like to add any fight card where he women have the best fight does not bode well for the future.

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The sexism in this post is beyond horrific.

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Posted by mrsumo

Prove it was to the spine and not his back. Pressure point strikes are not allowed. Nothing more specific than that.

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Just watch the replay....the final knee strike is to Renzo's cervical vertebrae. There is your proof.
Whether or not Frank did it intentionally, that, you cannot prove.

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While I too someday dream of having a sport that only has elitist fans, to not want to educate new fans is such a horrible idea I don't even know where to begin.

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Theres a huge difference from not wanting to educate new fans and telling fans completely wrong information, or information that is redundant. Goldberg has gotten much better and I do like him more so than before BUT sometimes his comments would be false and really obvious. Its like going to a hockey game and constantly reminding people that the little rubber thing they are banging around is called a "puck" Goldberg has got to give people a little more credit on their intellegence AND hes being doing so a lot better with Joe Rogan at his side. IMO Mauro and Bas are the better commentating team

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Posted by mrsumo

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Posted by Trapt1nw0nder

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Posted by mrsumo

Prove it was to the spine and not his back. Pressure point strikes are not allowed. Nothing more specific than that.

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what?

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This line of discussion was about the rules in shooto. In shooto and in Pride hits to the back of the neck and on the back happen often. There may or may not be a specific rule on striking the sping, but there isn't any differentation between the spine and the back. Witth the Shamrock Gracie fight, there is a very specific rule about this, and it was indeed violated.

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Pride FC defines ten "illegal actions" that are grounds for a DQ.
#3 states, "No strikes (kicks, elbows, punching) to the back of the head (which includes the occipital region and the spine). The sides of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head."

Shooto does NOT allow strikes to the spine either.

UFC, IFL and Pancrase all protect fighters against "strikes to the back of the head and spine."

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Posted by Snacks

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Posted by hippysmacker

Excellent point. Gross is not the type to say something so blatant like that without reason IMO. I would like to add any fight card where he women have the best fight does not bode well for the future.

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The sexism in this post is beyond horrific.

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I do not disagree, but I think it a valid criticism regardless . Women are new to MMA compared to their male counterparts, and very few are well rounded. Carano/Kedzie are both much more comfortable standing, and Carnao's huge reach advantage and technical superiority made this pretty one side through 2 rounds. Only Kedzies heart/chin and some later takedowns kept her conscoius to me. The 3rd was closer when Kedzie took her down, but they definately lacked skill there. I can think of 5 total female MMA fighter's( and I am a devout MMA fan) and one ( Shelby Walker )just died. Even Debi Purcell who is the best overall that I have seen fight is still lacking skill-wise comparingly. Why wasn't she fighting? IMO it's because she is not as pretty. Kedzie at the least is cute, and Carano is drop-dead gorgeous. Gary Shaw made repeated references to their looks in Pre and post fight interviews. To me, that's what their fight was about as much as the competition. I expected at least one really good televised fight between men who have been training much longer, and was sorely dissapointed.

i love sexism. Just without the "ism"

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Posted by madmarck

i love sexism. Just without the "ism"

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Ba-da-bump! Ching! Thank you , Thank you very much, I'm here all week folks, don't forget to tip your waitress

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Posted by hippysmacker

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Posted by madmarck

i love sexism. Just without the "ism"

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Ba-da-bump! Ching! Thank you , Thank you very much, I'm here all week folks, don't forget to tip your waitress

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God i hope you arent my waitress........................................................................
Muck it. Waitress don't deserve tips if they hit on you(when they are 20 years older)

HAHa this organiazation is a joke....Starts out how all the others that folded a main event that was HORRIBLE..ELITE is made up of washed up talent and young guys...a good mix i guess.....CHARLES BELONGS IN PRISON

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Posted by hippysmacker

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Posted by Snacks

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Posted by hippysmacker

Excellent point. Gross is not the type to say something so blatant like that without reason IMO. I would like to add any fight card where he women have the best fight does not bode well for the future.

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The sexism in this post is beyond horrific.

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I do not disagree, but I think it a valid criticism regardless . Women are new to MMA compared to their male counterparts, and very few are well rounded. Carano/Kedzie are both much more comfortable standing, and Carnao's huge reach advantage and technical superiority made this pretty one side through 2 rounds. Only Kedzies heart/chin and some later takedowns kept her conscoius to me. The 3rd was closer when Kedzie took her down, but they definately lacked skill there. I can think of 5 total female MMA fighter's( and I am a devout MMA fan) and one ( Shelby Walker )just died. Even Debi Purcell who is the best overall that I have seen fight is still lacking skill-wise comparingly. Why wasn't she fighting? IMO it's because she is not as pretty. Kedzie at the least is cute, and Carano is drop-dead gorgeous. Gary Shaw made repeated references to their looks in Pre and post fight interviews. To me, that's what their fight was about as much as the competition. I expected at least one really good televised fight between men who have been training much longer, and was sorely dissapointed.

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Megumi Fujii, Hisae, and Yabushita are beyond pissed right now.

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Posted by hathcock32

HAHa this organiazation is a joke....Starts out how all the others that folded a main event that was HORRIBLE..ELITE is made up of washed up talent and young guys...a good mix i guess.....CHARLES BELONGS IN PRISON

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Angry Angry. It may not be the greatest but i think it is gonna come along farily nicely. Im pretty sure most of the fighters on the card weren't washed up. at the very least you could say 2 were. But the Crow got in and went 3 rounds no way he is past his glory days. He has better things to come.