ELITE XC DISCUSSION HERE

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Svartorm
2/11/07 4:54:36AM

Posted by Snacks

I'm pretty sure Renzo was milking it, however I do believe he was hurt.



Right, I think he got knocked out from the knee and was milking it as something worse. Between dramatically covering his face with his hands, and sitting there with his eyes wide open, I was half expecting him to act like he had amnesia next.
Trapt1nw0nder
2/11/07 5:16:08AM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by Snacks

I'm pretty sure Renzo was milking it, however I do believe he was hurt.



Right, I think he got knocked out from the knee and was milking it as something worse. Between dramatically covering his face with his hands, and sitting there with his eyes wide open, I was half expecting him to act like he had amnesia next.



...you R wrong..

How would like it to have Shamrock knee you to the back of the neck right now and see how you feel(twice)

you do know your neck is connected to your head right? (spine/brain)

hold two fingers out and feel the back of your neck...you feel that nerve there on the side?? imagine being hit there with knees

we all have eyes and we all saw Renzo's head bounce off Franks knee

for you
Snacks
2/11/07 5:20:19AM

Posted by Trapt1nw0nder


Posted by Svartorm


Posted by Snacks

I'm pretty sure Renzo was milking it, however I do believe he was hurt.



Right, I think he got knocked out from the knee and was milking it as something worse. Between dramatically covering his face with his hands, and sitting there with his eyes wide open, I was half expecting him to act like he had amnesia next.



...you're an idiot..

i would love to knee you to the back of the neck right now and see how you feel(twice)

you do know your neck is connected to your head right? (spine/brain)

hold two fingers out and feel the back of your neck...you feel that nerve there on the side?? imagine being hit there with knees

we all have eyes and we all saw Renzo's head bounce off Franks knee

for you



We also saw him kickin back afterwards laughing around afterwards as though nothing was wrong. I want you to be KO'd to the point where you're nearly blind as Renzo portrayed himself, then within 15 minutes get to the point where you're perfectly fine. Please, it'll make my day.
Svartorm
2/11/07 5:28:46AM
First off, lets leave the keyboard ninja stuff aside, shall we?

Yes, your neck is connected to your head. Your hand is also connected to your wrist. If I punch you in the wrist, does it hurt your hand? Probably not.

Yes, getting hit in the neck hurts. Its also a legal move, and plenty of fights in MMA have been won with strikes to the neck.

I have eyes as well, and Frank pulled Renzos head towards his own before throwing the knees, which landed in the neck/collarbone area. Watch it again if you don't believe me.
mrsumo
2/11/07 5:33:44AM
I won't get to see the fights for three more hours when I get off work and run home to the dvr, but I will say that it isn't uncommon for a fighter on the losing end of the stick to milk an injury. You see it all the time with ball shots and headbutts. But an illegal strike is still an illegal strike. Different rules for different playgrounds. But from the way everyone is describing it it probably should have been a no contest. I will review the fight and if necessary adjust my opinions later tonight at work.
Svartorm
2/11/07 5:37:29AM
Really, I think No Contests should be used much more often, as I hate it when someone gets a win over a bullshit decision. Different circumstance, but Vitor vs. Couture 2 was similar to this fight in that it was ended by a questionably legal strike, resulted in an injury, but Vitor got the win.
mrsumo
2/11/07 5:40:24AM
That one definitely should have been no contest in my book. I screamed at the tv on that one. No part of that strike hit him except the seam end of the glove. Randy essentially lost by way of papercut. It should be like the boxing rule. After a certain amount of time a stoppage should go to the cards, before that it is a no contest.
Svartorm
2/11/07 5:43:19AM
Agreed, that should have been a no contest, and so should the Frank fight, rather than a DQ. Agreed on the score cards issue as well, although that would be hard to do in MMA being as they only do a quarter of the rounds boxing does. In boxing, they only allow that if its gone over three rounds, right?
Snacks
2/11/07 5:44:23AM

Posted by mrsumo

I won't get to see the fights for three more hours when I get off work and run home to the dvr, but I will say that it isn't uncommon for a fighter on the losing end of the stick to milk an injury. You see it all the time with ball shots and headbutts. But an illegal strike is still an illegal strike. Different rules for different playgrounds. But from the way everyone is describing it it probably should have been a no contest. I will review the fight and if necessary adjust my opinions later tonight at work.



How should it have been a no-contest? Shamrock had already been warned, then threw the same illegal stike, twice in a row and to the back of the head. If a fighter is stopped or cannont continue because of an injury resulting from an illegal strike then it is a DQ, especially in this case where it was deemed the strike was intentional.
mrsumo
2/11/07 5:45:11AM
Yep thats right, I can hear Buffers voice reciting the rules in my head. How far into the bout did this happen with Frank?
Svartorm
2/11/07 5:52:21AM
About half way through round two, of a three round fight.
Svartorm
2/11/07 5:58:35AM

Posted by Snacks

How should it have been a no-contest? Shamrock had already been warned, then threw the same illegal stike, twice in a row and to the back of the head. If a fighter is stopped or cannont continue because of an injury resulting from an illegal strike then it is a DQ, especially in this case where it was deemed the strike was intentional.



Shamrock had been warned when he was throwing the Igor Vochancyn style knuckle punches around Renzos head, which at least connected to the back of the head. The knees were not illegal. The rules are no knees to the head of a downed opponent, and no strikes to the back of the head. He didn't hit the head, so he didn't break the rules.

Herb also raised his hand right after Renzo fell over, so him suddenly deciding he was intentionally commiting a foul doesn't hold water with me.
mrsumo
2/11/07 5:59:03AM
Either way here would have been better than a dq. A no contest would have good and we would have seen a quick rematch. Going to the cards would have been good to settle some controversy. I don't know, just seems like a bitch ending to what was supposed to be the battle of the two great houses.
Snacks
2/11/07 6:00:10AM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by Snacks

How should it have been a no-contest? Shamrock had already been warned, then threw the same illegal stike, twice in a row and to the back of the head. If a fighter is stopped or cannont continue because of an injury resulting from an illegal strike then it is a DQ, especially in this case where it was deemed the strike was intentional.



Shamrock had been warned when he was throwing the Igor Vochancyn style knuckle punches around Renzos head, which at least connected to the back of the head. The knees were not illegal. The rules are no knees to the head of a downed opponent, and no strikes to the back of the head. He didn't hit the head, so he didn't break the rules.

Herb also raised his hand right after Renzo fell over, so him suddenly deciding he was intentionally commiting a foul doesn't hold water with me.



And 2 knees on the ground does not equal downed? Did we suddenly enter bizarro world?

Wait wait wait, after re-reading this, the knees didn't hit the back of the head? uhhhh..... kay.
Svartorm
2/11/07 6:04:51AM
Knees on the ground are legal, as long as they're not to the head. Frank probably threw two dozen knees on the ground during that fight.

I'm sick of arguing about this though. Mrsumo, if I could ask a favor of you, please review the dvr when you get home and give us your take on it at some point. I trust you to be an honest guy and call it like it is.
mrsumo
2/11/07 6:06:29AM
You got it.
Manfred
2/11/07 6:24:30AM
Since I couldn't find the rules on Elite XC's website, I found this concerning Unified Rules of MMA which most states adhere to:

9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head. No direct striking attacks are allowed to the spine or the back of the head. A direct strike is an aimed and executed attack to the area. The back of the head is considered the direct center of thehead with 1’ inch of tolerance to either side.


Combine that with Frank's statement makes it a DQ, NOT A NC!:
"I know I was hitting him in the back of the head a little bit. I thought he was going to move his head so I wouldn't hit him there anymore"

Source
Trapt1nw0nder
2/11/07 6:31:08AM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by Snacks

How should it have been a no-contest? Shamrock had already been warned, then threw the same illegal stike, twice in a row and to the back of the head. If a fighter is stopped or cannont continue because of an injury resulting from an illegal strike then it is a DQ, especially in this case where it was deemed the strike was intentional.



Shamrock had been warned when he was throwing the Igor Vochancyn style knuckle punches around Renzos head, which at least connected to the back of the head. The knees were not illegal. The rules are no knees to the head of a downed opponent, and no strikes to the back of the head. He didn't hit the head, so he didn't break the rules.

Herb also raised his hand right after Renzo fell over, so him suddenly deciding he was intentionally commiting a foul doesn't hold water with me.



a strike to the back of the neck is the same shit as to the back of the head.....saying otherwise is stupid

you act like if shamrocks knee is the size of a elbow that precisely hit Renzo's neck..

the circumference of Shamrocks knee is much larger than Renzo's neck area where he got hit..so its impossible that he only hit the neck precisely..he got his whole neck and lower head

anyways...f%ck Shamrock...cant believe you're backing his cheating disrespecting ass!

besides...Renzo was winning and Shame-rock was being taken down at will
Trapt1nw0nder
2/11/07 6:37:09AM

Posted by Svartorm

Really, I think No Contests should be used much more often, as I hate it when someone gets a win over a bullshit decision. Different circumstance, but Vitor vs. Couture 2 was similar to this fight in that it was ended by a questionably legal strike, resulted in an injury, but Vitor got the win.



No Contest would not be a fair decision,when Renzo was clearly winning

imagine if tito kicked chuck in the balls at the middle of the 3rd round and chuck was not able to continue(for whatever reason)before he got knocked out and the fight would be scored "No Contest"

all fighters should kick people in the nuts if they're losing a fight so they dont get a loss huh?

very smart...
Manfred
2/11/07 7:43:27AM
hippysmacker
2/11/07 7:52:52AM
Svartom you are a good guy and all, but I completely disagree with you on this. He cranked his neck, let it whip into his upthrusting knee IMO. I am shocked they blamed Herb Dean, this was not his fault, Frank broke the rules. Also, Frank completely saddened me with his childish refusal to admit his error, and claiming Renzo knew he was about to get KOed and Didn't want to fight anymore. Whether anyone likes his LnP style or not, Renzo was completely in control . Did Frank do it on purpose? Was Renzo as he hurt as made out? Only God and them know for sure it looked to me like he did it on purpose. This is a guy who got his arm snapped by Sakuraba and barely blinked! Love em or hate him, I can't ever see him taking a dive. Add the fact that he was winning, and I just think Shamrock is full of it. As for head injuries, they are tough to call. I've had 3 concussions I know of, and maybe more. I once went head to head like a dummy with a 250lb. fullback sliding off a trap block in the hole and missed 2 play's and then played the rest of the game. I have no memory of the game, and wondered where I was ( buddies house, wouldn't let me drive home) when I woke. I watched the film of the game like a stranger.I still have no memory's that don't come from the game film to this day I've had worse collisions where my bell was ring and remember the whole thing.However, I do think Renzo was doing very little on the ground as someone previously stated, and I was not entertained much by this fight in general. Guys, I know temper's flare and people disagree, but no insults to each other. Thanks
dstlvb
2/11/07 10:02:28AM
Its amazing what people come up with. The first knee was right behind the ear, the second was to the base of the neck. Immediatly after the second Renzo reacted and started to roll off of Frank. Then Herb moved in. I think Herb should have moved in after the first knee and maybe fight could have continued. As far as Renzo faking, i can see that. This guy obviously has a tract record of shooting angles to try and win the fight. Give me a break. You watch this guy on TV and you know for a fact he was faking? As far as Frank goes wit hhis comments, i wish Glaver had asked him if maybe bringing bottles or chairs should be allowed because "He came to fight".
zephead
2/11/07 10:41:12AM
Frank was hitting Renzo in the back of the head all through the first round. Dean warned him. The first knee was a close call. The second knee caught Renzo in the back of the neck. A illegal shot. To say Renzo wasn't hurt is a joke. The guy is a true warrior.

Against Sak, Renzo had is elbow dislocated and didn't tap. If Renzo was acting, then Hollywood needs to get him. His eyes weren't focused. He looked a little in "La La Land." Great acting job Renzo.

No need to name call or get bent out of shape. At the end of the day, other then emtoions invested into a fight, we as fan, have nothing else involved. Chill people. Enjoy the fights. Our sport is blowing up.
Stickan
2/11/07 11:26:52AM
I don't like Gary Shaw. He doesn't seem to know anything about the sport and he seems to be a little slow, close to stupid.

If you watch sherdogs post-fight interview with Gina Carano, Gary is there and makes a fool out of himself with comments like "I'm gonna send her to a pro boxing camp so she gets her striking game down and learns how to feint a little".

First off, which promotor decides where it's fighters gonna train. Secondly the striking is the least of Caranos problems. It's the ground game she hasn't developed enough yet.
And the last point.... THIS ISN'T BOXING!!!!

Then after all this talk from him about the women getting the same chance to fight as men some guy asks him if he's going to keep Kedzie. He answers somethin like "I'm not the kind of promoter who cuts anybody just because he or she loses and Kedzie is cute and fought her heart out."

Yeah lets keep her because she's cute.....

Gary always seems to try to cover up his lack of knowledge for the sport by talking about all this abstract parts of the game like "the heart of the fighter", "fighting spirit" and "the will to fight". I want a guy who knows his shit in his position.
aceprone
2/11/07 3:19:59PM
Not to change the subject a little bit, but my thought is still connected. I know commisioned rules in the US state that you can't knee or kick a downed opponent in the head. But an interesting twist to this shamrock incident what if those knees connected to the side of the head and not behind the head, would those strikes been legal? The reason why I'm saying this is because Shamrock was the downed opponent, not Renzo. Now I haven't read anywhere if a guy on the bottom (the "downed" opponent) can legally knee to the head. Anythoughts of info on this?
aceprone
2/11/07 3:22:40PM
by the way here are commisioned rules on illegal strikes. Herb dean made the right call, argue or not, here are the rules.

Disqualification: a "warning" will be given when a fighter commits a foul or illegal action or does not follow the referee's instruction. Three warnings will result in a disqualification. Moreover, if a fighter is injured and unable to continue due to a deliberate illegal technique from his opponent, the opponent will be disqualified.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts#Common_rules
Snacks
2/11/07 3:38:58PM

Posted by Manfred

Since I couldn't find the rules on Elite XC's website, I found this concerning Unified Rules of MMA which most states adhere to:

9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head. No direct striking attacks are allowed to the spine or the back of the head. A direct strike is an aimed and executed attack to the area. The back of the head is considered the direct center of thehead with 1’ inch of tolerance to either side.


Combine that with Frank's statement makes it a DQ, NOT A NC!:
"I know I was hitting him in the back of the head a little bit. I thought he was going to move his head so I wouldn't hit him there anymore"

Source



Props for knowing about the Unified rules. It seems not many people actually know these, which is unfortunate, as it seems to lead to arguements/discussions such as this.
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/11/07 10:23:20PM


Mauro Renello's voice is so fake..it dont even fit him....and Goldberg only acts like he dont know whats up,i have noticed that he only acts like a noobie to the sport,but thats the way it works..goldberg only act,so he can bring up questions so he can educate the people watching

in other words...Goldberg asks the questions a noobie to the sport would ask if they were watching so they can learn

i have noticed M goldberg say alot of very educated statments of the sport and i would think to myself..."i thought this guy didnt know jack"!

thats the way it works buddy...so..


Mike G > Mauro R


Are u serious? i'll admit Goldberg has gotten a lot better but early in his career he was really bad, when Royce fought Shamrock way back he called the Royce armbar attempt an "elbow suplex"
Im a little biased to Mauro from his days with pride with Bas and IMO Bas and Mauro are much more entertaining than Goldberg and friends.

And as for Goldberg asking "questions a noobie to the sport would ask" so people can learn I dont think catering to the Lowest common denominator by asking retarded questions helps the sport out.
Snacks
2/11/07 10:39:12PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi



Mauro Renello's voice is so fake..it dont even fit him....and Goldberg only acts like he dont know whats up,i have noticed that he only acts like a noobie to the sport,but thats the way it works..goldberg only act,so he can bring up questions so he can educate the people watching

in other words...Goldberg asks the questions a noobie to the sport would ask if they were watching so they can learn

i have noticed M goldberg say alot of very educated statments of the sport and i would think to myself..."i thought this guy didnt know jack"!

thats the way it works buddy...so..


Mike G > Mauro R



Are u serious? i'll admit Goldberg has gotten a lot better but early in his career he was really bad, when Royce fought Shamrock way back he called the Royce armbar attempt an "elbow suplex"
Im a little biased to Mauro from his days with pride with Bas and IMO Bas and Mauro are much more entertaining than Goldberg and friends.

And as for Goldberg asking "questions a noobie to the sport would ask" so people can learn I dont think catering to the Lowest common denominator by asking retarded questions helps the sport out.


While I too someday dream of having a sport that only has elitist fans, to not want to educate new fans is such a horrible idea I don't even know where to begin.
Savy
2/11/07 10:48:24PM

Posted by aceprone

Not to change the subject a little bit, but my thought is still connected. I know commisioned rules in the US state that you can't knee or kick a downed opponent in the head. But an interesting twist to this shamrock incident what if those knees connected to the side of the head and not behind the head, would those strikes been legal? The reason why I'm saying this is because Shamrock was the downed opponent, not Renzo. Now I haven't read anywhere if a guy on the bottom (the "downed" opponent) can legally knee to the head. Anythoughts of info on this?


Renzo was downed as well. A fighter becomes downed when any part of his body besides his two feet come in contact w/ the mat.
Because Renzo was a "downed fighter," Frank's knees to Renzos head were all 100% illegal techniques under the rules.
On top of that, some of those knees struck base of the skull/back of the neck/spine region. That is ALWAYS a big no no! I don't care what continent you fight on, no promotion allows strikes to the spine.
Frank got exactly what he deserved.
Thank God Renzo is OK.
I would understand if Renzo refuses to fight Frank again. There are many game fighters around who will play by the rules.
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