How effective is this guard pass in MMA?

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fedorwins1
11/9/07 4:40:34PM
You're in your opponents guard and you reach under both of their legs and scoot them close to you and then push their legs to the side. BJ Penn demonstrates it here at about 2:23 into the video. How effective do you think this guard pass is in MMA?
Rush
11/9/07 5:09:26PM
I think there are more chances for guard passes in MMA that end up getting ignored than people getting in trouble for attempting a guard pass.

I think too many fighters are content to swing at a guy whilst being in his guard and ignore the possibility (and better decision in most cases, IMO) to pass. I think the majority of the better fighters utilize the guard pass more rather.
Jackelope
11/9/07 5:13:42PM
I don't know about in MMA but that is a money pass for me in standard BJJ. It's too easy to execute for one, and for two it is incredibly effective.

I tend to agree that in MMA people usually are content to swing from inside guard. I guess you could say that it leaves your head open going for that pass, but really it can be executed so quickly that I would personally use that any day in an MMA match.
madmarck
11/9/07 6:50:12PM
i actually learned that pass yesterday. The thing to remember is BJ put his Knee behind the guys butt. You can stand up a littel when you do it to. Then just push the legs off.

Its easier said than done your first time.
stock
11/9/07 7:29:46PM
That's definitely a guard pass that I have never been taught.
It seems like it would have to be very fast and seamless as to not get caught in a triangle or omaplata.
I'll get a better feel once I try it out.

Props for the vid!!
Jackelope
11/9/07 9:58:24PM
There's actually very little triangle risk to it because your arms go in between their legs. One thing he didn't emphasize in the video is just how much you have to pick the opponent up into you. you want to scoop his butt so far off the ground that he's almost rolling over backwards and you also want to be keeping your head up while you're making the pass. These are just a few reasons why seeing videos on the net doesn' t really teach you everything you need to know about the move.

head down like you're licking some ...... while you're sucking the legs up, once the legs are up and the pass is being made, it's head up and weight down
Rush
11/9/07 10:29:19PM

Posted by Jackelope

I tend to agree that in MMA people usually are content to swing from inside guard. I guess you could say that it leaves your head open going for that pass, but really it can be executed so quickly that I would personally use that any day in an MMA match.




Oh please don't misunderstand. I didn't watch the vid and am not specifically referring to this guard pass. I was referring to guard passes in general.


I guess I should have made that clear since I didn't really answer the question.
Jackelope
11/10/07 3:48:19AM

Posted by Rush


Posted by Jackelope

I tend to agree that in MMA people usually are content to swing from inside guard. I guess you could say that it leaves your head open going for that pass, but really it can be executed so quickly that I would personally use that any day in an MMA match.




Oh please don't misunderstand. I didn't watch the vid and am not specifically referring to this guard pass. I was referring to guard passes in general.


I guess I should have made that clear since I didn't really answer the question.



I think we're in a sound agreement here. I think you and I are on the same page as far as using BJJ fundamentals to win an MMA fight. To me it's just simple logic that a more dominant position opens you up for more options. Unless you've got a guy like Tim Sylvia who can outreach his opponents and pummel through guard I think getting the more dominant position is always the right answer.

One of the few situations where I can think of sacrificing for a less dominant position is like that episode of TUF the other night when the farm boy guy should have switched to side mount once he had "war machine's" arm locked in for a kimura. I was screaming at the TV while my bro and his gf were looking at me like I was insane haha.
bayonetxwork
11/10/07 7:27:39AM
I can't watch the video because I have 56k, but if I'm thinking of the pass you're thinking of, it is one I use all the time. I would assume it would be just as effective in MMA as in regular BJJ or submission grappling, but you still run the risk of possibly getting caught in a triangle.
Rush
11/10/07 10:52:39AM
I watched the vid. That's basically a typical Gracie seminar right there. lol


The guard pass is basic but pretty reliable. I think the risk of a triangle is minimal. As it was said you arms are not on the inside and the more you stack the legs the harder it is for your opponent to put on the triangle. It might be even less risky in MMA when you're covered with sweat.
Omega
11/11/07 7:37:23PM
On a scale of 1-10 (ten being a must have in your arsenal) this pass is an 7. Truthfully you won't find yourself in a position to do this in most mma fights. It's good tool to have when you need it but most guys in mma should not be content to stay in this position long enough for you to position this pass correctly. I use this one quite extensively in no gi grappling but once strikes are being administered the game changes again.
madmarck
11/11/07 7:40:46PM

Posted by Rush

I watched the vid. That's basically a typical Gracie seminar right there. lol


The guard pass is basic but pretty reliable. I think the risk of a triangle is minimal. As it was said you arms are not on the inside and the more you stack the legs the harder it is for your opponent to put on the triangle. It might be even less risky in MMA when you're covered with sweat.


Not to mention you are to far back for the guy to wrap his legs around you.
To prevent getting armbared i was taught that you can but both of your arms under his legs and scoop em out and over your shoulder.
Omega
11/12/07 12:12:52AM
Jeez, guys I'm sorry you can't figure this out, it shouldn't even be a point of discussion. No you can't be armbarred nor triangle choked from that position.
madmarck
11/12/07 10:34:02AM

Posted by Omega

Jeez, guys I'm sorry you can't figure this out, it shouldn't even be a point of discussion. No you can't be armbarred nor triangle choked from that position.


Thats pretty much what i said. You are so far back that he cant get at you.
Omega
11/12/07 5:42:15PM
Right. Both you and rush are saying you're not in danger, I'm saying yes, why even bother bringing it up? Meh, it's my teaching style, if I don't say anything it's probably not worth mentioning.
Jackelope
11/13/07 2:14:51AM
That would explain the middle finger in your avatar, haha.

fedorwins1
11/15/07 3:46:09PM
Tried this pass last night in No-Gi and got stuck in a TIGHT guillotine lol. I thought were basically free from any submissions in this position, but I guess I was wrong
Jackelope
11/15/07 5:40:40PM
^^^How the hell that happened I have no idea, lol.

When passing with this guard pass make sure you throw that other arm against his opposite shoulder. That keeps him from posturing up (I'd imagine he sat up a bit and threw it on you) Also make sure to keep that head up and away while you're making the pass.

Anyway you should end up in side control after this pass and it's pracitcally impossible to get submitted with a guillotine from side control. Either the guy you were facing is really, really good, or you made a mistake somewhere along the lines.
fedorwins1
11/15/07 6:03:46PM
The guy is pretty good, but it was my mistake; I had my head down and he underhooked my armpits and straightened his back so I couldn't really posture up that good to pull him towards me and I guess that's when he sat up a bit and got it in (I think it was a ten finger guillotine also). It was a really weird sub from a weird position. Just a stupid mistake on my part I guess.

Hey whatever, as long as I learn and don't make that mistake again lol.

Jackelope
11/15/07 6:30:09PM
That does sound really weird. Especially since your armpits should have been behind his legs from the position he was looking at you.

At what point in the pass did this happen? At the very beginning? Now you've got me curious.

I really think learning these kinds of things via video is helpful, but should not be relied upon. Sounds like maybe you didn't stack him up on his neck very much which is something they didn't emphasize in the video.
fedorwins1
11/15/07 7:05:32PM
I had both of my arms around his legs and he wedged his hands between my arms and his legs and underhooked my armpits and just straightened out. I had both of his legs on my shoulders when I got guillotined. I just tried it out, I've learned it before, but have never tried it during live rolling so I figured I would see how good it works. I got this pass many other times with different people last night, but I got caught once.
Jackelope
11/15/07 7:32:08PM
Ahh, that makes sense now. There's yet another reason to put that arm around and onto the guy's shoulder- to help block him off from reaching through. That is crazy that he was able to pull that off. LOL but hey you're right.. sometimes it takes getting caught in something to learn something really valuable.
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