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pv3Hpv3p
6/29/07 5:23:07PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by Aether

Josh Koscheck is one of the best wrestlers in the entire sport. No way is GSP's wrestling better. That being said I think GSP beats him in every single other aspect of the game, and is going to be winning this one convincingly after what he surely considers an embarrassing loss.

Why does everyone think Koscheck is one of the best wrestlers in MMA?!?!?!?! There are sooo many fighters I can think of off hand that not only have better wrestling suited for MMA, but better wrestling backgrounds/resumes aswell...



First of all, I am not a Koscheck fan, I don't like his personality and I don't enjoy his fighting style... But I do have to say, not speaking on wrestling as a whole, but he has the most immpressive TD's (single / double) I've recently or maybe ever seen...

He is very quick, strong, and explosive... That's where the "best wrestler" comes from IMO, it's too bad that he doesn't really know what to do with the guy once he's down there...
nubby
6/29/07 5:28:27PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by richieb19
Why does everyone think Koscheck is one of the best wrestlers in MMA?!?!?!?! There are sooo many fighters I can think of off hand that not only have better wrestling suited for MMA, but better wrestling backgrounds/resumes aswell...




I think I can answer that. Probably because all they have is their buying into TUF hype. There are so many fighters out there that have great wrestling credentials, but people don't know it because they were not on TUF.

People say Gomi sucks on the ground, but he is a very accomplished wrestler. Most people probably didn' t know before he fought Diego (or still don't know) that Joe Riggs was a very decorated wrestler....etc.

Over the years I have seen guys step into the octagon and the announcers say that this guy is an all-state wrestler. When I see him in the cage, he doesn't even move like a wrestler. I take it with a grain of salt every time.




I don't think anyone else in the UFC has ever been able to boast being a 4 time Collegiate all American wrestler, or being an NCAA Division 1 champion winning 42 straight matches. This kid is an amazing wrestler. Joe Riggs who you mentioned was a highschool wrestler being a highschool all american. Be sure that you differentiate between the two because they are two very different levels of accomplishment.
richieb19
6/29/07 5:33:25PM

Posted by nubby

I don't think anyone else in the UFC has ever been able to boast being a 4 time Collegiate all American wrestler, or being an NCAA Division 1 champion winning 42 straight matches. This kid is an amazing wrestler. Joe Riggs who you mentioned was a highschool wrestler being a highschool all american. Be sure that you differentiate between the two because they are two very different levels of accomplishment.



I guess you're right, guys like Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman and Randy Couture all had inferior wrestling backgrounds... only to name a few...

EDIT: and for some people to say he is the best wrestler in the sport while neglecting Judo gold medalists like Yoshida or Nastula is obsurd. 42 matches in a row is great, but 312 is amazing.
nubby
6/29/07 5:44:11PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I don't think anyone else in the UFC has ever been able to boast being a 4 time Collegiate all American wrestler, or being an NCAA Division 1 champion winning 42 straight matches. This kid is an amazing wrestler. Joe Riggs who you mentioned was a highschool wrestler being a highschool all american. Be sure that you differentiate between the two because they are two very different levels of accomplishment.



I guess you're right, guys like Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman and Randy Couture all had inferior wrestling backgrounds... only to name a few...

EDIT: and for some people to say he is the best wrestler in the sport while neglecting Judo gold medalists like Yoshida or Nastula is obsurd. 42 matches in a row is great, but 312 is amazing.


Strictly wrestling the following wrestlers could be considered:

Severn - Superior
Coleman - Inferior
Randleman - Superior
Randy Couture - Equal

But here is the thing you had to pull out those 4 guys to compare wrestling background to. I think Kos is a pretty creme of the crop wrestler if he can be compared to those guys.
richieb19
6/29/07 5:47:24PM

Posted by nubby


Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I don't think anyone else in the UFC has ever been able to boast being a 4 time Collegiate all American wrestler, or being an NCAA Division 1 champion winning 42 straight matches. This kid is an amazing wrestler. Joe Riggs who you mentioned was a highschool wrestler being a highschool all american. Be sure that you differentiate between the two because they are two very different levels of accomplishment.



I guess you're right, guys like Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman and Randy Couture all had inferior wrestling backgrounds... only to name a few...

EDIT: and for some people to say he is the best wrestler in the sport while neglecting Judo gold medalists like Yoshida or Nastula is obsurd. 42 matches in a row is great, but 312 is amazing.


Strictly wrestling the following wrestlers could be considered:

Severn - Superior
Coleman - Inferior
Randleman - Superior
Randy Couture - Equal

But here is the thing you had to pull out those 4 guys to compare wrestling background to. I think Kos is a pretty creme of the crop wrestler if he can be compared to those guys.

How is Coleman inferior? He won a NCAA championship, which Koscheck only did once aswell, placed 7th at the Olypmics and beat a gold medalist in Kurt Angle.
iwannabesedated
6/29/07 5:51:19PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I just got done watching the Sanchez Parisyan fight and man can Diego kick some ass! I have a new found respect for that kid after that fight.

Fantastic fight all around, but Karo was robbed in the decision.






nubby
6/29/07 6:04:22PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby


Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I don't think anyone else in the UFC has ever been able to boast being a 4 time Collegiate all American wrestler, or being an NCAA Division 1 champion winning 42 straight matches. This kid is an amazing wrestler. Joe Riggs who you mentioned was a highschool wrestler being a highschool all american. Be sure that you differentiate between the two because they are two very different levels of accomplishment.



I guess you're right, guys like Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman and Randy Couture all had inferior wrestling backgrounds... only to name a few...

EDIT: and for some people to say he is the best wrestler in the sport while neglecting Judo gold medalists like Yoshida or Nastula is obsurd. 42 matches in a row is great, but 312 is amazing.


Strictly wrestling the following wrestlers could be considered:

Severn - Superior
Coleman - Inferior
Randleman - Superior
Randy Couture - Equal

But here is the thing you had to pull out those 4 guys to compare wrestling background to. I think Kos is a pretty creme of the crop wrestler if he can be compared to those guys.

How is Coleman inferior? He won a NCAA championship, which Koscheck only did once aswell, placed 7th at the Olypmics and beat a gold medalist in Kurt Angle.



I'm also considering the fact that Kos was a 4 time all american. But this is all subjective since I don't think Kos has an olympic background. As my good friend likes to say "orange trees and fire trucks".
richieb19
6/29/07 6:09:41PM

Posted by nubby

I'm also considering the fact that Kos was a 4 time all american. But this is all subjective since I don't think Kos has an olympic background. As my good friend likes to say "orange trees and fire trucks".



Don't get me wrong, Kos is a fantastic wrestler, and most likely the best at 170lbs in the UFC right now... however with that said, he is no where near the best amateur wrestler in the sport, the marketing machine just leads everyone to believe this...
richieb19
6/29/07 6:39:21PM
IMHO, and it is debatable, but Pawel Nastula is probably one of the most decorated amateur wrestler in MMA history, and comes highly underrated...

Pawel Nastula HL
Rush
6/29/07 9:30:04PM

Posted by nubby

I don't think anyone else in the UFC has ever been able to boast being a 4 time Collegiate all American wrestler, or being an NCAA Division 1 champion winning 42 straight matches. This kid is an amazing wrestler. Joe Riggs who you mentioned was a high school wrestler being a high school all American. Be sure that you differentiate between the two because they are two very different levels of accomplishment.



Actually I'm glad you brought this up. I don't think the UFC distinguishes or is specific in what an All-American wrestler really is. I understand they are completely different accomplishments. Heck, there is a big difference between Div. I, II and III as well. To me (a Canadian) to say All American just means they are really good, unless they list specifics.

I wasn't comparing Riggs' and Koscheck's wrestling accomplishments. I was just saying there are a lot of wrestling accolades in MMA that have not gotten the exposure they deserve because they were not on a show (TUF). In all honesty, because I heard they were both All-American, I assumed they had similar accolades (until I looked them up). In Canada, if you are top in the country you are on the National Team or the Olympic Team. I don't think we really have titles like All Candian. There are regional and provincial championships in high school and likely post-secondary, but they are not common knowledge.

And just to look at things from another perspective. I think a serious high school or college wrestler (that did reasonably well, but did not make all American) has probably gained as much skill as someone that got their black belt in some martial art. After all, they put in 4-5 years of training which is what it takes to get a black belt in most respectable dojos.

But I'm digressing here a little.....
rcg916
6/29/07 9:32:46PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I just got done watching the Sanchez Parisyan fight and man can Diego kick some ass! I have a new found respect for that kid after that fight.

Fantastic fight all around, but Karo was robbed in the decision.



Rush
6/29/07 10:11:24PM

Posted by richieb19


I guess you're right, guys like Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman and Randy Couture all had inferior wrestling backgrounds... only to name a few...

EDIT: and for some people to say he is the best wrestler in the sport while neglecting Judo gold medalists like Yoshida or Nastula is obsurd. 42 matches in a row is great, but 312 is amazing.



To name some more.....

Brock Lesnar
Matt Hughes (well, he was only 2 time All American)
Matt Lindland
Mark Kerr
Dan Henderson
Karam Ibrahim Gaber
Kevin Jackson
Rulon Gardner
Mark Schultz
Kenny Monday

Another interesting tidbit. Matt Hamill was a 3-time NCAA Div III champion!!! That may sound less significant, but I heard that he did beat a lot fo Div I wrestlers.

Nice Nastula HL, though I have seen it before and prefer the pure Judo one's to his MMA.
shackle
6/29/07 10:52:09PM
huh? Diego clearly won that fight...

Are you saying Parisyan should of won? He was owned almost the entire fight.

I respect, and like Parisyan, but there was no way he beat Diego sorry.


Posted by rcg916


Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I just got done watching the Sanchez Parisyan fight and man can Diego kick some ass! I have a new found respect for that kid after that fight.

Fantastic fight all around, but Karo was robbed in the decision.




richieb19
6/29/07 11:09:26PM

Posted by shackle

huh? Diego clearly won that fight...

Are you saying Parisyan should of won? He was owned almost the entire fight.

I respect, and like Parisyan, but there was no way he beat Diego sorry.


Karo won rounds 1 and 2, and even if round 3 was scored 10-8 in Diego's favor it would still have been a draw... I've rewatched this fight so many times, and there is no way Diego should have walked away the winner... it seems that being on TUF and knocking out a tooth is good enough for a win in the UFC though...
rcg916
6/29/07 11:12:39PM

Posted by shackle

huh? Diego clearly won that fight...

Are you saying Parisyan should of won? He was owned almost the entire fight.

I respect, and like Parisyan, but there was no way he beat Diego sorry.


Posted by rcg916


Posted by richieb19


Posted by nubby

I just got done watching the Sanchez Parisyan fight and man can Diego kick some ass! I have a new found respect for that kid after that fight.

Fantastic fight all around, but Karo was robbed in the decision.







Clearly we disagree. And thats okay.
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