How do you define your P4P rankings?

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JackHammerXXX
1/1/09 5:56:28PM
Post earlier inspired this. When I decide on my P4P rankings, I look at afew things. I understand the logic of "If this fighter was in another weight class, how would him and his skills do?" As in the term pound for pound, how good are his skills. Now, when I look at another way, I'm like who is the best in each weight class, then, rank them on the level of skill, and dominance in their respected weight class. Also adding to it, is the size differences, and jumps to weights classes in the fights taken by a fighter.
My P4P rankings are as follows, 1.Silva, 2. Fedor, 3.GSP, 4.Penn, 5. Evans

Let me know your ranks, and I want to know what defines pound for pound, and who is the best.
jae_1833
1/1/09 6:10:31PM
My rankings are for pretty much the same reasons as yours.

1. Fedor 2. GSP 3. A. Silva 4. BJ 5. Aoki 6. Kid Yamamoto 7. Miguel Torres 8. Faber 9. Hendo 10. Jackson

My problem is that I know how opinionated that I am so it also has a bit of just who I like the most in there. I change these picks all the time too, so it's going to change in a couple of weeks.
mentalcase
1/1/09 6:14:53PM
a silva has dominated his division more then fedor has recently but the fact that fedor has beaten the best in 2003 and styed on top for that long and never lost a fight hes my P4P #1

while a silva has slipped up a few times like submission loses to takasi and chonan fedor never lost and is still has an aura of invincibility


as for my top ten P4P list i rank them sort of like fight matrix division dominance ranks them

#1 Fedor Emelianenko
#2 Anderson "Spider" Silva
#3 Georges "Rush " St. Pierre
#4 BJ "The Prodigy" Penn
#5 Rashad "Sugar" Evans
#6 Miguel Torres
#7 Mike Brown
#8 Quinton "Rampage" Jackson
#9 Thiago "Pitbull" Alves
#10 Shinya Aoki

Rank totals updated as of UFC 92: The Ultimate 2008
seanfu
1/1/09 6:17:36PM
The problem with looking at it in terms of if these two fought is the weight. If you were gonna say who would beat everyone on earth then the list would have onlt heavyweights and supers.

If you said OK I'm basing this list strictly on skill, and talent, then the list would have absolutely no MWs or up because like it or not, the bigger the fighter, to different extents, the lower the talent level. Flyweights up to lightweights need to know EVERYTHING and be fast and smooth. How many MWs or LHWs can you compare with that? Rampage, Shogun, Wandy, Fedor even, Andrei, none of these guys could compare with Kid or Faber.

So Pound for Pound has to be a combo of everything. There's no way to make a perfect list. The top 5 are generally right. But even with Forrest as champ for instance, I don't think I ever put him up there due to his lack of skill. Had he beated a bunch of guys while he had the title with his limited style he would hae had to be up there.

Rashad in my thoughts shouldn't be above the 10 spot until he beats another top guy because he hasn't proven a lot by beating a guy who wasn't on my list. His talent on the other hand looks like he should be but he's unproven yet.

Anderson
Fedor
GSP
Penn
Urijah (Urijah and Torres only because they're on such hot streaks andtalented)
Torres
Lyoto
?
?
?

Aoki Alvarez Hendo and Rampage are all close
mentalcase
1/1/09 6:26:32PM

Posted by seanfu


Penn
Urijah (Urijah and Torres only because they're on such hot streaks andtalented)
Torres
Lyoto
?
?
?

Aoki Alvarez Hendo and Rampage are all close



do you know urijah go KTFO at WEC 36 by mike brown?
ohiostate1016
1/1/09 7:19:31PM
I decide mine with a little bit of bias, overall skill, and record.
MikeyG
1/1/09 8:25:45PM
P4P in the dictionary.

1) Made up by opinions.
2) Stupid and irrelevant to other rankings.
3) Can almost never be proven or fought out to prove it.
seanfu
1/1/09 9:04:33PM

Posted by mentalcase


Posted by seanfu


Penn
Urijah (Urijah and Torres only because they're on such hot streaks andtalented)
Torres
Lyoto
?
?
?

Aoki Alvarez Hendo and Rampage are all close



do you know urijah go KTFO at WEC 36 by mike brown?



Yeah, it was pretty big news. But that doesn't change his spot much. Also Alvarez lost to Aoki. It doesn't change his ranking much.

I hate everyone giving Mike Brown the top spot because he Matt Serra'd Urijah. Not saying it was lucky at all, just saying it won't happen again and Mike brown deserves the number 3 spot regardless. It's like Rashad getting Forrests number 7 spot or whateve in pound for pound like it just works that easily. Brown ktfo'd him but due to talent and hotstreak Urijah keeps his spot.

If Randleman knocked out Fedor all of the sudden in a rematch you wouldn't remove fedor from the top 3, and you certainly wouldn't put Randleman as #1
mentalcase
1/1/09 10:01:53PM
if randleman ko fedor its a different situation completely cause ranlman has been on a big lossing steak and has only beaten a can recently

mike has not lost since 2005 is on an 8 fight win streak beaten a few decent fighters, and the clear then #1 fighter in faber

i rank the way fight martix ranks i find it the most logical and fair way to do it
MikeyG
1/1/09 10:09:18PM

Posted by seanfu


Posted by mentalcase


Posted by seanfu


Penn
Urijah (Urijah and Torres only because they're on such hot streaks andtalented)
Torres
Lyoto
?
?
?

Aoki Alvarez Hendo and Rampage are all close



do you know urijah go KTFO at WEC 36 by mike brown?



Yeah, it was pretty big news. But that doesn't change his spot much. Also Alvarez lost to Aoki. It doesn't change his ranking much.

I hate everyone giving Mike Brown the top spot because he Matt Serra'd Urijah. Not saying it was lucky at all, just saying it won't happen again and Mike brown deserves the number 3 spot regardless. It's like Rashad getting Forrests number 7 spot or whateve in pound for pound like it just works that easily. Brown ktfo'd him but due to talent and hotstreak Urijah keeps his spot.

If Randleman knocked out Fedor all of the sudden in a rematch you wouldn't remove fedor from the top 3, and you certainly wouldn't put Randleman as #1



for not ranking fedor
Pookie
1/1/09 11:03:27PM
I rank as if all the fighters in teh scenario are/were the same weight naturally. And then i use my Noodle to figure out who is the most talented.

My top 10 p4p are those who i think are the hardest fighters to beat due to their style and skill.

Fedor is my p4p #1 because he has some of the best submissions GnP and transitions in the HW division, which on the ground in mma gives him an edge against anyone. His stand-up skills have beaten k-1 level strikers, and his sambo is just unorthodox enough that even fighters with great sprawls get taken down because sprawls dont matter in the clinch.

He can beat 99% of fighters standing, 99% of fighters on the ground, and can take most fighters down effectively.

The only Style type that can beat him IMO(other than by a perfect punch/kick) is a master Bjj fighter with Great takedowns.... the closest example of this would be Ricardo Arona if he was naturally just a wee bit bigger.


Anderson silva is less complete of a fighter IMO, what if he ends up facing someone whos a better striker? as unlikely as it might seem, what does he do then if said fighter has above average takedown defense, andersons ability to take it to the ground isnt nearly as strong as fedors, nor is his submission game. So while his striking is deadly and awe inspiring, hes not near as complete as fedor is.

I could give a breakdown for each fighter on my list but it just seems like more typing than im willing to do right now
big_timmy
1/2/09 7:26:46PM

Posted by mentalcase

while a silva has slipped up a few times like submission loses to takasi and chonan fedor never lost and is still has an aura of invincibility




Fedor lost to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka in 2000 dude.
mentalcase
1/2/09 7:40:28PM

Posted by big_timmy


Posted by mentalcase

while a silva has slipped up a few times like submission loses to takasi and chonan fedor never lost and is still has an aura of invincibility




Fedor lost to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka in 2000 dude.



do you really think i dont know that?
the thousands of sherdog fighter profiles iv checked to make accurate predictions, i never oinces checked fedors even tho i rank him #1 P4P fighter and he one of the most popluar and takled about fighters in the world

read this

Emelianenko's only loss in the sport is controversial, and came at the hands of Tsuyoshi Kohsaka at the King of Kings 2000 Block B event on December 22, 2000, via doctor stoppage due to a cut 17 seconds into the fight.[28] Footage shows that the cut was caused by a missed looping punch where Kohsaka's elbow struck Emelianenko's head. Elbow strikes are illegal under RINGS rules unless the striker is wearing elbow pads, which Kohsaka wasn't. Emelianenko says that this elbow reopened a cut sustained in his previous fight against Ricardo Arona.[29] Since the fight was in a tournament format, a winner and loser was required as draws or no contests could not be awarded. Since Emelianenko could not advance due to his injury, Kohsaka moved on (the match would have been a no contest or disqualification victory for Emelianenko otherwise).[
Diamondback2
1/3/09 12:59:50AM
I have a couple things i like to factor in to mine.

(In order of importance)

1: Dominance.
Dosen't just beat people, destroys them on a regular basis. Think the opponents as demon on Doom and the fightert is tyhe marine !! Current dominance holds more water IMO than past dominance.

2: Ability to be okay at 2 or more weight classes
A true P4P fighter should be able to operate at 2 weight classes and be a top fighter. Now when a fighter is just so dominant in one weight class (like GSP's current situation) and dosen't need to move than it this becomes a "what if" thing.

3: Fights top fighters on a regular and current basis. Assuming GSP wins his next two fights he will have fought since UFC 69: Koscheck, Hughes, Serra, Fitch, Penn, Alves. That's wild!

4: Belt
Holds a legit belt (ex: UFC, WEC, DREAM) not no bs one (ex: WAMMA, Cage Rage, etc...)


My top 5 i think would be:

1: Anderson Silva

2:: Fedor

3: GSP

4: Penn

5: Miguel "Angel"
State_Champ
1/3/09 9:14:53AM
when i did my p4p rankings is tried to ask myself "who would win a fight if everyone were the same weight?"

and this is what i came up with:

1
Fedor Emelianenko

2
Anderson Silva

3
Miguel Torres

4
Georges St. Pierre

5
BJ Penn

6
Quinton Jackson

7
Rashad Evans

8
Forrest Griffin

9
Urijah Faber

10
Shinya Aoki

(but every time i look at my rankings i always want to switch them around....)
mrkennedy
1/5/09 12:07:38AM
1#Anderson Silva
2#Fedor
3#Miguel Torres
4#GSP
5#Frank Mir
6#B.J Penn
7#Rashad Evans
8#Satoru Kitaoka
9#QJ Rampage
10#Jorge Santiago and Brock Lesnar

Honorable Mention:Big Nog,Thiago Alves,Urijah Faber,Kenny Florian
Jackelope
1/5/09 8:42:30AM
I base my p4p rankings on one thing and one thing only-

If all fighters were the same size who would have the best developed skillset?

Because of this method it is incredibly hard to rank anyone but Fedor as #1. Not only has he dominated opponents much larger than himself already (if you want to view it from a weight standpoint) but like others have mentioned - He's stood in there with elite K-1 fighters. He's grappled with the world's best black belts. He's wrestled with some of the world's best wrestlers. He's done all of this and he's never lost***

Anderson Silva has been in against some of the world's best wrestlers- he won.

Anderson Silva has NOT been in with the world's best strikers.

Anderson Silva has been in there with some of the world's best grapplers, and he's won.

So A.S. has two of the required three. He's awfully close to being ranked higher than Fedor, but not quite yet.
mentalcase
1/5/09 9:26:47AM
anderson and fedor are the same size 230 the difference is anderson cuts to fight at a different weight class fedor dose not
cowcatcher
1/5/09 10:05:34AM

Posted by mentalcase

anderson and fedor are the same size 230 the difference is anderson cuts to fight at a different weight class fedor dose not



anderson does not cut from 230, i dont know where you came up with that, but its ridiculous to think he cuts 45 lbs for every fight. youve obviously never cut weight because no one could do that time in and time out, your body would be a mess.
mentalcase
1/5/09 11:34:16AM
anderson gets up to 225-230 when hes not fighting, im not saying he cuts that much in the week of his fight

i didnt just come up with that,
cowcatcher
1/5/09 11:46:27AM

Posted by mentalcase

anderson gets up to 225-230 when hes not fighting, im not saying he cuts that much in the week of his fight

i didnt just come up with that,



i know you didnt mean the week of the fight, but i still think you are off by a bit. lets say he fights every 4 months, and for 2 months prior(minimum) he is training for the fight.that leaves 2 months for him to balloon up to 230 from his walking weight which ill guess is around 205-210. during that 2 months there is down time no doubt, but my guess is hes still in the gym at least 50%of the days in that 2 month window where hes not training for a specific fight. how would he be able to gain that kind of weight? also hes a thin framed guy so i dont know where he could fit the weight. if he was fluctuating between 185 and 230 regularly he would have stretch marks, and be physically drained all the time. guys that fight at 205 rarely hit the 230 mark because that much fluctuation wreaks havoc on your body. so if you didnt just come up with that id love to see a source because im not buying it. i dont want to come off as a jerk, but i think you misheard something here. i could see anderson at some point having been 230, but if he normally cuts from there then im nailing bea arthur on a regular basis.
Jackelope
1/5/09 3:21:44PM

Posted by mentalcase

anderson gets up to 225-230 when hes not fighting, im not saying he cuts that much in the week of his fight

i didnt just come up with that,



He was quoted in interviews saying he walks at 212. I agree that 230 is quite a stretch. If you need proof I'll go back and find the articles but I think you're just not remembering correctly. Even cutting nearly 30 lbs like that is insane (although most top fighters cut about 20-30)
Wolfenstein
1/5/09 4:08:33PM
His manager Ed Soares has mentioned that Anderson walks around at 220-230 and could easilly be a HW. You could just google Anderson Silva+230lbs and find a bunch of articles about it I'm sure. I'm sure when he's in camp he's more lke 215, and probably progressively trims weight so he can make the cut.

Then again you have guys like Gleison Tibau who cuts from 195lbs. I don't know how that is possible, because I couldn't imagine cutting that much weight--but when he always looks like a MW when he steps in the Octagon.
mentalcase
1/5/09 10:50:46PM

Posted by cowcatcher


Posted by mentalcase

anderson and fedor are the same size 230 the difference is anderson cuts to fight at a different weight class fedor dose not



anderson does not cut from 230, i dont know where you came up with that, but its ridiculous to think he cuts 45 lbs for every fight. youve obviously never cut weight because no one could do that time in and time out, your body would be a mess.



“I apologize,” Silva said. “I worked hard in training to go four or five rounds. I dropped from 230 pounds to 205 and then to 185. I worked my butt off. I had a long camp preparing for the fight. I owe you guys in the media, the fans and everyone an apology. I was prepared, but it’s unfortunate what happened.”

link

that's where i got it from, so next time u wanna respond like a smartass get your facts straight
cowcatcher
1/7/09 8:37:13AM
well i didnt see that you responded in here i thought you just did it through the private mail you sent me, but i might as well post my reply to your mail on here because you earned a gold star today:


ok so he cut from 230 once, like i said i didnt doubt he was 230 at one time, just not always, so dont write me a private mail acting like a genius because for once in your life you got something right. im sure it feels very foreign and pretty good to finally be right after hearing about others do it for your whole life, and i really am happy for you, your dog, your parents, and the other 3 or 4 people that have been waiting for 17 years or so(just guessing your age) for you to get that goose egg off the board. well i should run so i can bake you that cake you deserve so much, im just so damn proud of you, finally after months of being on the playground you had something to offer......bravo!

all you needed to do was post a link not send me a smartass private mail and you would have gotten props.
mentalcase
1/7/09 9:39:25AM
i would not have pm u if u responded here

like i said i didnt doubt he was 230 at one time, just not always


yes u did that was what the argument was about, and u allso said he would have had stretch marks from losing that much weight

you clearly have no idea what ur talking about so don't respond to me in an condescending tone, especially when u are so uneducated about what ur trying to correct me on
keep ur arrogant comment to ur self
cowcatcher
1/7/09 9:51:06AM

Posted by cowcatcher

i could see anderson at some point having been 230



theres a direct quote for you, its hard not to be condescending when you have proven yourself to be a smug little prick by private mailing me. like i said, i would have propped for the link, nice work, you were right, but i have wrestled competitively and coached for longer than youve been alive and im a pretty damn good authority on weight cutting, and if he does cut 45 lbs regularly then hes clearly superhuman. im done responding to you so have at it and write some other brilliant comment on this thread directed towards me, i only want you to be happy and enjoy this, your day in the sun.
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