Dana White: Rousimar Palhares banned from the UFC

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Kpro
10/10/13 9:12:35PM
In before conversation spirals out of control fast.
decken
10/10/13 9:16:31PM

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki


Posted by warglory


Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Also UFC killed all their competition, so they have a (moral) obligation to keep top fighters around and work with them to fix their flaws instead of just cutting them whenever a problem arises. But obviously Dana don't care.



No, they have a moral obligation to maintain the health of their fighters whenever possible.



If a guy doesn't tap you can break his bones. This is mma. You can break bones, It's allowed. Imanari has mangled several ankles. But Palhares didn't crank hard enough to break. He just didn't let go for an extra second or two because he was caught up in the moment. It wasn't THAT unsportsmanlike.

And there are different ways to protect fighters as I mentioned. Cutting isn't the only way. And Pierce is healthy. He walked away from it. Should they cut Nog because he didn't tap, and let MIr break his arm. That would be protecting him, wouldn't it?



Broken bones do not end fight careers. Torn knee ligaments end fight careers. A heel hook is dangerous because it destroys the ligaments in the knee and typically you do not feel any pain until it has already started to do damage. So a second or two makes a big difference.
Bustamante-Aoki
10/10/13 9:25:09PM

Posted by decken


Posted by Bustamante-Aoki


Posted by warglory


Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Also UFC killed all their competition, so they have a (moral) obligation to keep top fighters around and work with them to fix their flaws instead of just cutting them whenever a problem arises. But obviously Dana don't care.



No, they have a moral obligation to maintain the health of their fighters whenever possible.



If a guy doesn't tap you can break his bones. This is mma. You can break bones, It's allowed. Imanari has mangled several ankles. But Palhares didn't crank hard enough to break. He just didn't let go for an extra second or two because he was caught up in the moment. It wasn't THAT unsportsmanlike.

And there are different ways to protect fighters as I mentioned. Cutting isn't the only way. And Pierce is healthy. He walked away from it. Should they cut Nog because he didn't tap, and let MIr break his arm. That would be protecting him, wouldn't it?



Broken bones do not end fight careers. Torn knee ligaments end fight careers. A heel hook is dangerous because it destroys the ligaments in the knee and typically you do not feel any pain until it has already started to do damage. So a second or two makes a big difference.



I understand that. If you're cranking hard enough a second or two makes a huge difference. If you're using just enough pressure than the extra second or two won't make much of a difference, hence the reason Pierce got up and walked away from the submission.

If Palhares was being malicious then Pierce wouldn't have walked away. That's my point. He wasn't trying to inflict extra damage. The punishment is too harsh. Feel free to disagree.
tallica62
10/10/13 9:37:49PM
I finally agree with something Dana White said
warglory
10/10/13 9:50:57PM

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki


If a guy doesn't tap you can break his bones. This is mma. You can break bones, It's allowed. Imanari has mangled several ankles. But Palhares didn't crank hard enough to break. He just didn't let go for an extra second or two because he was caught up in the moment. It wasn't THAT unsportsmanlike.


And there are different ways to protect fighters as I mentioned. Cutting isn't the only way. And Pierce is healthy. He walked away from it. Should they cut Nog because he didn't tap, and let MIr break his arm. That would be protecting him, wouldn't it?



Paul Daley only landed one measly punch after the bell against Josh Koscheck because he was caught up in the moment, should he be allowed to stay in the UFC?

It was Nog's stupid choice not to tap, Mir did his job. Had Mir did what he did after Nog tapped, he wouldn't be in the UFC anymore either.

Bustamante-Aoki
10/10/13 10:41:58PM
Daley's actions were much more unsportsmanlike as the fight had been over for 5 seconds or so when he threw the punch, but the force of the punch was also important. Had he floored Koscheck he would've been suspended from MMA period, for years. Had he tapped him lightly then it wouldn't have mattered. The force, or pressure in Palhares' case was what's more important than the actions.

What if a fighter jokingly holds a choke for an extra second or two, and it's obviously loose, should they automatically be suspended? No, so there's a gray area. It's not black and white. The amount of force being applied matters.

They should've just suspended him, and fined him.
telnights
10/10/13 10:49:17PM

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

If Palhares was being malicious then Pierce wouldn't have walked away. That's my point. He wasn't trying to inflict extra damage. The punishment is too harsh. Feel free to disagree.



Really that's your argument. Pierce could walk so no foul. This guy a long history of doing just this even before he joined the UFC. The last guy also wasn't so lucky and who is to say he wouldn't do it again because its clear he wont follow the rules. Also what a lot people seam to forget is he was also popped for PEDs his last fight. So now you have a fighter that has done this many times out side of the UFC and now twice in the UFC and just got busted for PEDs his last fight.

Yeah I can totally see fining him and giving him another suspension because it worked the past 2 times. Hey why do anything at all Pierce could walk right.
bjj1605
10/10/13 10:58:22PM

Posted by papercut

I think the media is blowing the hold a little out of proportion. He held onto the lock sure but you would think he was cranking it ala babalu/heath. He dropped it quicker than he has previously.



I agree. It was a bit long, but certainly not egregious. Also people, you need to understand the difference between cranking a sub and holding a sub. Palhares HELD for an extra second, but he wasn't torquing it.

On the other hand, hopefully he learned his lesson. I guess it was a repeat offense...

I'm ambivalent actually.
decken
10/10/13 11:36:15PM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by papercut

I think the media is blowing the hold a little out of proportion. He held onto the lock sure but you would think he was cranking it ala babalu/heath. He dropped it quicker than he has previously.



I agree. It was a bit long, but certainly not egregious. Also people, you need to understand the difference between cranking a sub and holding a sub. Palhares HELD for an extra second, but he wasn't torquing it.

On the other hand, hopefully he learned his lesson. I guess it was a repeat offense...

I'm ambivalent actually.



Clearly you do not understand the difference between holding a sub and cranking a sub.
Webbie
10/10/13 11:54:07PM
I can't believe anyone is defending Palhares.

He's done this so many times that it's literally expected of him at this point. That's far too much.

Pierce even spoke about Palhares being a dirty fighter before the fight, and Palhares just went out there and proved Pierce right.

Thank you, Dana. You definitely made the right decision on this one.
Budgellism
10/11/13 12:11:39AM

Posted by Webbie

I can't believe anyone is defending Palhares.

He's done this so many times that it's literally expected of him at this point. That's far too much.

Pierce even spoke about Palhares being a dirty fighter before the fight, and Palhares just went out there and proved Pierce right.

Thank you, Dana. You definitely made the right decision on this one.



I couldn't agree more. If this was the first time I'd probably be a little upset about the cut but he continues to do stupid things and they all finally caught up to him.
quezocrema0032
10/11/13 12:37:33AM
I love the people defending palhares by saying "he wasn't putting THAT much pressure" Did you see Pierce, a tough guy with ZERO history of acting, goofing around, or pretending during fights literally YELL from the pain? I can't believe people are defending Palhares, everyone says he's "simple" & doesn't mean harm he just comes from a poor background, maybe I say he needs to pass some sort of proficiency test to prove he's smart enough to understand what is allowed in an mma or bjj match for that matter since he apparently doesn't let go there either. The ufc made the right call, can't have 1 guy trying to put fighters on the shelf for months because he doesn't understand when to let go.
prophecy033
10/11/13 1:07:33AM

Posted by warglory


Posted by Bustamante-Aoki


If a guy doesn't tap you can break his bones. This is mma. You can break bones, It's allowed. Imanari has mangled several ankles. But Palhares didn't crank hard enough to break. He just didn't let go for an extra second or two because he was caught up in the moment. It wasn't THAT unsportsmanlike.


And there are different ways to protect fighters as I mentioned. Cutting isn't the only way. And Pierce is healthy. He walked away from it. Should they cut Nog because he didn't tap, and let MIr break his arm. That would be protecting him, wouldn't it?



Paul Daley only landed one measly punch after the bell against Josh Koscheck because he was caught up in the moment, should he be allowed to stay in the UFC?

It was Nog's stupid choice not to tap, Mir did his job. Had Mir did what he did after Nog tapped, he wouldn't be in the UFC anymore either.


Sir_Karl
10/11/13 1:09:42AM
Palhares is about as bright as a Gibbon.
traveller77
10/11/13 2:12:18AM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by papercut

I think the media is blowing the hold a little out of proportion. He held onto the lock sure but you would think he was cranking it ala babalu/heath. He dropped it quicker than he has previously.



I agree. It was a bit long, but certainly not egregious. Also people, you need to understand the difference between cranking a sub and holding a sub. Palhares HELD for an extra second, but he wasn't torquing it.

On the other hand, hopefully he learned his lesson. I guess it was a repeat offense...

I'm ambivalent actually.



You can clearly see him torque hard after the ref grabs him, maybe you should stop watching the fights on your phone and get in front of a big screen. I thought it was obvious.
Kpro
10/11/13 3:32:23AM

Posted by Sir_Karl

Palhares is about as bright as a Gibbon.



From Wiki:

Gibbons are social animals. They are strongly territorial, and defend their boundaries with vigorous visual and vocal displays.

Gibbons are masters of their primary mode of locomotion, brachiation, swinging from branch to branch for distances of up to 50 ft, at speeds as high as 34 mph. The gibbons' ball-and-socket joints allow them unmatched speed and accuracy when swinging through trees. Nonetheless, their mode of transportation can lead to hazards when a branch breaks or a hand slips, and researchers estimate that the majority of gibbons suffer bone fractures one or more times during their lifetimes. They are the fastest and most agile of all tree-dwelling, non-flying mammals

Now with Gibbon replaced with Paul Harris:

Paul Harris is a social animal. He is strongly territorial, and defends his boundaries with vigorous visual and vocal displays.

Paul Harris is a master of his primary mode of locomotion, brachiation, swinging from branch to branch for distances of up to 50 ft, at speeds as high as 34 mph. Paul Harris' ball-and-socket joints allow him unmatched speed and accuracy when swinging through trees. Nonetheless, his mode of transportation can lead to hazards when a branch breaks or a hand slips, and researchers estimate that the majority of Paul Harris's cause bone fractures or torn ligaments to other mammals one or more times during their lifetimes due to the inability to understand realistically anything at all. He is the fastest and most agile of all tree-dwelling, non-flying mammals.

I see the comparison.

Poor_Franklin
10/11/13 5:20:08AM
Didnt read article, just headlines & comments.

Just speculation, but being a repeat offender is what did him in & wouldn't be surprised if he had already been warned.
jjeans
10/11/13 5:45:08AM

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

I don't think he's malicious at all, he just loves to fight, is competitive, doesn't know his own strength at times, and he just gets too caught up in the moment. Fighting is practically the world to him. He's not some spoiled brat or douche who just likes to hurt people. He has to hold back in training because his pace and intensity is too much for normal people. When he gets to fight he can finally go 100% and he does. He enters "the zone"





In my opinion this is not a fighter who is in the zone.

I just think Palharres doesn't understand the concept of a referee unless it's in his favour. If the locks in he wants to hold it. If the guys hurt he'll say when the guys done. But as soon as a legs slippy... Where's my referee.
Goatenstein
10/11/13 7:39:45AM

Posted by Copenhagen

Holding onto a leg lock has more serious consequences to the opponent than holding onto a choke, but I understand where you're coming from.

Other than death of course.
Bubbles
10/11/13 8:19:13AM

Posted by jjeans


Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

I don't think he's malicious at all, he just loves to fight, is competitive, doesn't know his own strength at times, and he just gets too caught up in the moment. Fighting is practically the world to him. He's not some spoiled brat or douche who just likes to hurt people. He has to hold back in training because his pace and intensity is too much for normal people. When he gets to fight he can finally go 100% and he does. He enters "the zone"





In my opinion this is not a fighter who is in the zone.

I just think Palharres doesn't understand the concept of a referee unless it's in his favour. If the locks in he wants to hold it. If the guys hurt he'll say when the guys done. But as soon as a legs slippy... Where's my referee.


see, that gif just proves that he does respect fighter safety. Miller was taking too many punches and Herb just stood there watching so he stopped.


seriously though, if this is how it is then every single fighter who lands extra blows to a KO'd opponent after the ref steps in should be banned as well.
FastKnockout
10/11/13 8:35:59AM
Don't know if it's been posted yet but here's video of Palhares vs. Helio Dipp. He choked him unconscious with a RNC but he held the choke even as the ref was trying to pull him off. Skip to about 2:00 of the video.

Don't care what anyone says, Palhares is a dirty fighter.

Link
Dberntson
10/11/13 8:53:18AM
If a guy doesn't tap you can break his bones. This is mma. You can break bones, It's allowed. Imanari has mangled several ankles. But Palhares didn't crank hard enough to break. He just didn't let go for an extra second or two because he was caught up in the moment. It wasn't THAT unsportsmanlike.




Just because you do not give it one more crank does not mean the bones or ligaments wont still snap while maintaining a hold. The body can only hold up for so long. It may be able to handle the pressure for a little time, but can snap at any second. Also, if there was even a slight tear, any additional second will increase the size of a tear drastically, just as if you were tearing paper. Its a lot strong until you get a little rip in it and then it tears a lot easier. Therefore holding a sub, even a couple seconds longer can cause unnecessary damage. If Pierce would not tap, so be it, but he did, the ref did, and Palhares still did not let go.
bjj1605
10/11/13 9:13:27AM

Posted by decken

Clearly you do not understand the difference between holding a sub and cranking a sub.



Hmm....not sure if you're joking here so I'm not sure how to respond. Always hard to tell in text.

Anyway, I'm not trying to defend the guy too hard here or anything. Like I said, I'm ambivalent.

I didn't think it was an egregious offense at all. If he didn't have a history of this type of thing, I doubt it would even have been mentioned.

He's also a great fighter and he's really fun to watch, despite his personal quirks.

But ya, he's done this before, both in MMA and BJJ and I guess they're taking a no tolerance policy. Its a bit hypocritical though considering guys who continue to strike an unconscious opponent are usually excused as "being caught up in the moment."
NikkiNeversleep
10/11/13 9:34:57AM
I dont think he really held it all that long :/
jjeans
10/11/13 9:35:02AM
Check this out LINK Takes place about 1:55

This one is pre-UFC, a choke, and yeah shows Palharres lack of care or concern.
Dberntson
10/11/13 10:39:49AM
Palhares was just suspended for 120 days by the Brazillian MMA governing body. I think the overall opinion - most fighters, most fans, the UFC and the governing body - is that the guy has issues and is in the wrong and needs to be punished.
airkerma
10/11/13 10:55:41AM

Posted by bjj1605
Its a bit hypocritical though considering guys who continue to strike an unconscious opponent are usually excused as "being caught up in the moment."


Wrong analogy. A proper one would be a guy keeps punching the unconscious opponent after the ref stopped the fight and was in between the two fighters. That is essentially what happened. Pierce tapped, the ref jumped in and stopped the fight, Palhares cranks, Pierce re-taps, the ref physically pries the submission.

And those (not directed at you bjj) who say "he didn't hold it that long" do realize that after the fight is called it doesn't matter how long you hold the sub for, you let it go when the ref is on you telling you it's done. To reiterate the above analogy, if the ref jumps in and stops a striking finish and then the victor jumps back at it and punches the unconscious fighter again is it okay because "he didn't him him THAT many times after the fight was stopped"?
BillsNewAccount
10/11/13 11:10:02AM
It's a damn shame to see a fighter that talented get released from the UFC. I doubt we'll ever see a leg lock specialist in the UFC again.
Webbie
10/11/13 11:30:54AM
lol @ people still sticking up for Palhares. Sorry, but you guys are fucking crazy.

It doesn't matter if you think he didn't hold it THAT long; what matters is the fact that he's done this several times now. How many times do you let a guy get away with this type of thing before you actually take action and do something about it?

But sure, just let him keep doing it Brilliant logic, people.
Svartorm
10/11/13 11:37:36AM
Some guys like Mir go for the sub and don't give an ounce of mercy. That's one thing.

Knowing a guy tapped, the fight is over, and STILL holding it completely different. It's not only a disregard for a fighter, but also a disregard for the sport itself.

I'm off the opinion everyone is the fight game is a bit too nice anyways, but when the fights over, it's over.
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