Dana White: Fedor Emelianenko One of the Greatest Heavyweights Ever

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cowcatcher
11/1/12 12:41:57PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by cowcatcher
On to the second part, you could make a time machine and send Albert Pujols back to the 1920's and you can almost guarantee he'd put up better numbers than Babe Ruth. It doesn't make the Babe any less of a player or all time great, it just means that the sport, and athletes themselves have evolved.


a Brewers fan using Pujols as an example?

but thanks for further backing up my point



Who was I going to use, Jim Gantner?
ghandikush
11/1/12 12:46:46PM
I sincerely hope people disagreeing read at least one of these two responses for whatever appropriate disagreement fits.

This is in response to all of you, sort of.

--To the argument that Fedor is THE greatest of all time because of how he did against significantly less evolved competition and never lost,

Rickson Gracie went against a bunch of pioneers and never lost in his 11 fight prime, so is he considered a standing best? Also Royce should be considered one of the best for his prime when he never lost a fight between 1993 and 1996 barring a tourney loss he never fought in.

You could say "wow, thats a stretch" but how far of one? The greatest of all time category is very tough to put together, but I think its extremely important that the standing greatest of all time be competitive vs greatest of THEIR time.

For instance, I think losses mean NOTHING, if Ray Robinson of boxing vs Rocky Marciano of boxing is any indication of ANYTHING then it goes to show beyond a reasonable doubt that record is simply an indication of your opponents and not yourself.

In this case I strongly believe Fedor is the Rocky Marciano of MMA and Big Nog is the La Starza. Cro cop wont get a place because Rocky Marciano never really had any more competition than La Starza

----------------------------------------------------------------

Summation is that in this young sport Fedor could simply be the best hw of all time so far on paper, its quite possible, but I really think that JDS has at least nearly the same quality SOS with wins over

Werdum, Struve, Nelson, Carwin, Valasquez, and Mir. Granted Mur was lame in their fight and a lot of these guys were less experienced. I think it is a huge not when your past opponents names keep growing as well. JDS is the man, and Cain right now is as good as Big Nog ever was imo.
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---For the argument of old sports stars talent being nowhere near current sports stars talent and somehow the oldies are supposed to be greater than joe blow of today who eclipses them I say fond memories make the brain grow cloudier. Maybe its different in baseball, but I see a guy from a few eras ago being great in their time being greater against significantly lesser competition, and I see a barrier where we have to understand the modern stars compete at much higher levels.
ghandikush
11/1/12 12:49:33PM

Posted by Manak


Posted by ghandikush


Posted by bjj1605

It's hard for me to respect the opinion of any one who doubts that Fedor was the SINGLE greatest heavy weight of all time. Not one of the greatest, simply the greatest.

I don't see any reasonable argument that could be made for anyone else.



Greatest of HIS time. Beating Big Nog down is no small feat but I hardly consider beating Schilt or the shy performance of CC to be any better wins than JDS beating Cain down. We need perspective. If Fedor is the best of all time HW now it wont be very long at all until a UFC HW eclipses the best portion of Fedors legacy.

Also as performance and talent go no HW may ever out perform Fedor but I'm willing to bet if we had a time machine guys like JDS and Cain would win that fight. It means something when you think how many HWs are close to those twos level.



Really you dont consider schilt a better win than cain. Semmy is a 4 time K-1 WGP champ... cain has a total of 11 fights and is smaller than JDS and CC messed fedor's face up so i wouldn't really call that shy especially since fedor had the perfect gameplan for CC.



Schilt was nowhere near Cains level, EVER. This is MMA and at that time he had only 1 K-1 title if any if my memory serves me right. Schilt was only considered one of the top 4 before Big nog came into the light, and you know who one of the other top 4 HWs were at the time? Heath Herring.
george112
11/1/12 1:28:09PM

Posted by ghandikush


Posted by Manak


Posted by ghandikush


Posted by bjj1605

It's hard for me to respect the opinion of any one who doubts that Fedor was the SINGLE greatest heavy weight of all time. Not one of the greatest, simply the greatest.

I don't see any reasonable argument that could be made for anyone else.



Greatest of HIS time. Beating Big Nog down is no small feat but I hardly consider beating Schilt or the shy performance of CC to be any better wins than JDS beating Cain down. We need perspective. If Fedor is the best of all time HW now it wont be very long at all until a UFC HW eclipses the best portion of Fedors legacy.

Also as performance and talent go no HW may ever out perform Fedor but I'm willing to bet if we had a time machine guys like JDS and Cain would win that fight. It means something when you think how many HWs are close to those twos level.



Really you dont consider schilt a better win than cain. Semmy is a 4 time K-1 WGP champ... cain has a total of 11 fights and is smaller than JDS and CC messed fedor's face up so i wouldn't really call that shy especially since fedor had the perfect gameplan for CC.



Schilt was nowhere near Cains level, EVER. This is MMA and at that time he had only 1 K-1 title if any if my memory serves me right. Schilt was only considered one of the top 4 before Big nog came into the light, and you know who one of the other top 4 HWs were at the time? Heath Herring.



This post makes me wonder how long you've actually been watching MMA.

This post makes me think you googled Schilt and then used the info you found out to try and make it look like he wasn't good.

Dude he was good. You think its easy to win a K1 title? Its not. At anytime in history. To say athletes are better today then sometime in the past is just downright ignorant.

I highly doubt you even watched Fedor in his heyday. And if you did I'd bet you just fully didn't appreciate how good that guy really is. He DEMOLISHED people. GOOD people. Rarely his fights would go to a decision . Armbars tkos KOs he had them. He never taunted he never talked shit . He was NEVER boring . Even in losing. THAT is why he is the greatest of all time.

Your not going to win this argument here or anywhere else there are hardcore MMA fans .

I'm not even going to point out why Royce and Rickson aren't in the same conversation. However I will if need be
prophecy033
11/1/12 1:40:19PM
You know ghandikush, Cain is pretty much a new age version of Fedor. They are so similar in si many ways. Their aggressive nature in the stand up, their ground and pound, their ground control and their power are similar. Fedor has the upper hand in the sub department while Cain wins as far as wrestling. I would pay top dollar to see these two go at it in their primes. And for anyone to say Cain takes it easily needs to watch more tape
ghandikush
11/1/12 3:07:23PM

Posted by george112


Posted by ghandikush


Posted by Manak


Posted by ghandikush


Posted by bjj1605

It's hard for me to respect the opinion of any one who doubts that Fedor was the SINGLE greatest heavy weight of all time. Not one of the greatest, simply the greatest.

I don't see any reasonable argument that could be made for anyone else.



Greatest of HIS time. Beating Big Nog down is no small feat but I hardly consider beating Schilt or the shy performance of CC to be any better wins than JDS beating Cain down. We need perspective. If Fedor is the best of all time HW now it wont be very long at all until a UFC HW eclipses the best portion of Fedors legacy.

Also as performance and talent go no HW may ever out perform Fedor but I'm willing to bet if we had a time machine guys like JDS and Cain would win that fight. It means something when you think how many HWs are close to those twos level.



Really you dont consider schilt a better win than cain. Semmy is a 4 time K-1 WGP champ... cain has a total of 11 fights and is smaller than JDS and CC messed fedor's face up so i wouldn't really call that shy especially since fedor had the perfect gameplan for CC.



Schilt was nowhere near Cains level, EVER. This is MMA and at that time he had only 1 K-1 title if any if my memory serves me right. Schilt was only considered one of the top 4 before Big nog came into the light, and you know who one of the other top 4 HWs were at the time? Heath Herring.



This post makes me wonder how long you've actually been watching MMA.

This post makes me think you googled Schilt and then used the info you found out to try and make it look like he wasn't good.

Dude he was good. You think its easy to win a K1 title? Its not. At anytime in history. To say athletes are better today then sometime in the past is just downright ignorant.

I highly doubt you even watched Fedor in his heyday. And if you did I'd bet you just fully didn't appreciate how good that guy really is. He DEMOLISHED people. GOOD people. Rarely his fights would go to a decision . Armbars tkos KOs he had them. He never taunted he never talked shit . He was NEVER boring . Even in losing. THAT is why he is the greatest of all time.



2 things for the record, Ive seen all of Fedors pride fights, and some of his RINGS, I watched his fights next day toward the end of Pride, he was a phenom

number 2, k-1 isnt MMA, if you have a k-1 title it means squat other than distance striking, and it showed a lot. Semmy had one hell of an offensive guard back in the day but if you were a brown belt or a dominant wrestler he's not catching the triangle/armbar.... Why argue against it when we have old Semmy footage?

Also for the record Semmy won most of his K-1 titles after finishing his pride days and did so with both a style and frame that favor tourney formats. I dont get whats so hard to understand about the fact that he's only ever lost a single tourney fight but he's lost plenty of single fights... I SWEAR I'm not retarded, promise.
Bubbles
11/1/12 3:07:27PM

Posted by ghandikush
The greatest of all time category is very tough to put together, but I think its extremely important that the standing greatest of all time be competitive vs greatest of THEIR time.



Posted by ghandikush
Schilt was only considered one of the top 4 before Big nog came into the light, and you know who one of the other top 4 HWs were at the time? Heath Herring.


so which side of the argument are you going to stand on: Fedor is the best because he beat the greatest of his time or Fedor is overrated because the guys he beat were never that good?
ghandikush
11/1/12 3:14:36PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by ghandikush
The greatest of all time category is very tough to put together, but I think its extremely important that the standing greatest of all time be competitive vs greatest of THEIR time.



Posted by ghandikush
Schilt was only considered one of the top 4 before Big nog came into the light, and you know who one of the other top 4 HWs were at the time? Heath Herring.


so which side of the argument are you going to stand on: Fedor is the best because he beat the greatest of his time or Fedor is overrated because the guys he beat were never that good?



The guys he beat werent great aside from 2 or 3 significant standouts, BUT, because HW has taken so long to really have depth he is likely the greatest HW for a few more short years. I would personally say JDS already eclipsed him based on JDS destroying stronger competition as a whole. I named old oponents earlier, but I can see why Fedor remains #1 FOR NOW.

Fedor dominating prime Nog and again, a shy Cro Cop performance imo can only keep him on top for another year or two with the SOS of both Cain and JDS.

I'm sorry to be every lengthy post in this thread btw I want you guys to go on and not let me derail too bad, I just feel like Fedor will never have a chance to be the GOAT with the SOS he was allotted. I suppose its not fair and never will be.
Bubbles
11/1/12 3:27:46PM

Posted by Bubbles
hey ghandikush, guess what? Belfort, Okami, Maia, Leites were all "shy" performances too....so what can we conclude with that in regards to Anderson Silva???


Thanks for passing over this You would think that Belfort and Okami are 2 significant wins, but they were shy so lets poo-poo that right?
ghandikush
11/1/12 3:29:04PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Bubbles
hey ghandikush, guess what? Belfort, Okami, Maia, Leites were all "shy" performances too....so what can we conclude with that in regards to Anderson Silva???


Thanks for passing over this You would think that Belfort and Okami are 2 significant wins, but they were shy so lets poo-poo that right?



Okami Maia and Leitas absolutely actually.
Bubbles
11/1/12 3:47:19PM

Posted by ghandikush
The guys he beat werent great aside from 2 or 3 significant standouts, BUT, because HW has taken so long to really have depth he is likely the greatest HW for a few more short years. I would personally say JDS already eclipsed him based on JDS destroying stronger competition as a whole. I named old oponents earlier, but I can see why Fedor remains #1 FOR NOW.

Fedor dominating prime Nog and again, a shy Cro Cop performance imo can only keep him on top for another year or two with the SOS of both Cain and JDS.


You can look at the names on both of their resumes and say its relatively weak too:

Cain: is Bigfoot, Lesnar, Rothwell, old Nog (not the prime that Fedor smashed 3x), and Kongo really that impressive?

JDS: stronger SOS than Cain with wins over Mir and Werdum, but Struve was like 20 at the time of that fight. Carwin, Gonzaga, Nelson, and past prime Cro Cop (not the top level fighter Fedor beat) are nothing more than gatekeepers at best. Again not that impressive

Now most of this is devils advocate as I believe those 2 are the top HWs in the world right now, but if you are going to compare their SOS to Fedor's in terms of the era they fought, Fedor still comes out on top. If JDS beats Cain again, Overeem, Werdum (5 years later), Struve (much more mature and improved), Cormier...hell even Jon Jones lol... or at least most of them, then yes he can have a legit argument to unseating Fedor.
Bubbles
11/1/12 3:54:06PM

Posted by ghandikush


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Bubbles
hey ghandikush, guess what? Belfort, Okami, Maia, Leites were all "shy" performances too....so what can we conclude with that in regards to Anderson Silva???


Thanks for passing over this You would think that Belfort and Okami are 2 significant wins, but they were shy so lets poo-poo that right?



Okami Maia and Leitas absolutely actually.


Did Belfort even throw 10 strikes standing? I think he threw a grand total of like 4 leg kicks and 3 punches before eating Silva's foot. That = shy performance. Less than 10 standing strikes thrown in 4 minutes? Come on
ghandikush
11/1/12 4:03:28PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by ghandikush


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Bubbles
hey ghandikush, guess what? Belfort, Okami, Maia, Leites were all "shy" performances too....so what can we conclude with that in regards to Anderson Silva???


Thanks for passing over this You would think that Belfort and Okami are 2 significant wins, but they were shy so lets poo-poo that right?



Okami Maia and Leitas absolutely actually.


Did Belfort even throw 10 strikes standing? I think he threw a grand total of like 4 leg kicks and 3 punches before eating Silva's foot. That = shy performance. Less than 10 standing strikes thrown in 4 minutes? Come on



Dont be so defensive, he was tentative but just watch that fight over, he wasnt completely avoiding action and damage for fear of being taken down.

And yes you can name weak fight on both resume's which is why when I look at them I look only at significant ones and rate accordingly.

Belfort swarmed and knocked down silva with blunt force during the fight before getting knocked out. But I'm sure There used to be rounds when silva would throw 10-15 strikes and circle to time, but it doesnt go all fight like that. I think you must be a huge Fedor nut to try to draw parallels like that.
Bubbles
11/1/12 4:20:56PM

Posted by ghandikush
Belfort swarmed and knocked down silva with blunt force during the fight before getting knocked out. But I'm sure There used to be rounds when silva would throw 10-15 strikes and circle to time, but it doesnt go all fight like that. I think you must be a huge Fedor nut to try to draw parallels like that.


Silva threw a head kick, Vitor caught it and took him down briefly. He did not drop Silva in that fight. In almost every single one of Silva's fights, he uses the first 3-4 minutes to get his timing down unless you charge forward carelessly like Irvin, Griffin and Leben, so it's not against the norm. Most of those rounds came when he dicked around with Maia and Leites. Vitor has how many finishes in the first 4 minutes? Quite a few I'd think. I don't need to be a Fedor nuthugger to see that Vitor didn't fight like his normal self
ghandikush
11/1/12 6:33:39PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by ghandikush
Belfort swarmed and knocked down silva with blunt force during the fight before getting knocked out. But I'm sure There used to be rounds when silva would throw 10-15 strikes and circle to time, but it doesnt go all fight like that. I think you must be a huge Fedor nut to try to draw parallels like that.


Silva threw a head kick, Vitor caught it and took him down briefly. He did not drop Silva in that fight. In almost every single one of Silva's fights, he uses the first 3-4 minutes to get his timing down unless you charge forward carelessly like Irvin, Griffin and Leben, so it's not against the norm. Most of those rounds came when he dicked around with Maia and Leites. Vitor has how many finishes in the first 4 minutes? Quite a few I'd think. I don't need to be a Fedor nuthugger to see that Vitor didn't fight like his normal self



You just said Silvas early finishes are from aggressive fighters early on but then go on to say youre surprised Vitor didnt charge him.

I can see why its fair to make the argument the situation is the same as Cro Cops lack of aggression in the Fedor fight. I'll rewatch it I think youre right.
Cooler
11/1/12 9:10:03PM

Posted by ghandikush


Posted by bjj1605

It's hard for me to respect the opinion of any one who doubts that Fedor was the SINGLE greatest heavy weight of all time. Not one of the greatest, simply the greatest.

I don't see any reasonable argument that could be made for anyone else.



Greatest of HIS time. Beating Big Nog down is no small feat but I hardly consider beating Schilt or the shy performance of CC to be any better wins than JDS beating Cain down. We need perspective. If Fedor is the best of all time HW now it wont be very long at all until a UFC HW eclipses the best portion of Fedors legacy.

Also as performance and talent go no HW may ever out perform Fedor but I'm willing to bet if we had a time machine guys like JDS and Cain would win that fight. It means something when you think how many HWs are close to those twos level.



Name a HW with a better resume than Fedor.....I'll wait here while you think about it.

<---- This coming from a big JDS fan.
bjj1605
11/1/12 11:36:53PM

Posted by cowcatcher

I can't even respond to Kingsmasher's post. It's like arguing with a butthole, all you'll get back is smelly, hot air.





This made me giggle like a school girl. I'm glad no one was around to hear.


Posted by ghandikush

Greatest of HIS time. Beating Big Nog down is no small feat but I hardly consider beating Schilt or the shy performance of CC to be any better wins than JDS beating Cain down. We need perspective. If Fedor is the best of all time HW now it wont be very long at all until a UFC HW eclipses the best portion of Fedors legacy.

Also as performance and talent go no HW may ever out perform Fedor but I'm willing to bet if we had a time machine guys like JDS and Cain would win that fight. It means something when you think how many HWs are close to those twos level.



Cowcatcher already responded with some of my thoughts but I felt the need to add a few things and reiterate a few others.

First, if you are going to claim that Fedor is not the current GOAT HW then you need to say who is. Most people who claim that Fedor isn't the GOAT HW run into a wall when they try to make an argument for someone else. I don't think that's exactly what you're doing though. You're saying that someone is going to surpass him.

Fine. But I could say the same thing about any one and it's not really something that can be backed up with evidence. You're making a blind prediction about the future. If you say "GSP is the greatest WW of all time" I can respond with "For now" but it doesn't really add anything to the conversation IMO.

I also think you're exaggerating the "evolution of the sport." Pretty much everyone who watches/analyzes MMA does this. I agree that the sport as a whole has evolved (there are more good fighters) but I don't think there is much of a difference between the guys at the top today and the guys at the top yesterday. I think that a prime Cro Cop and a prime Fedor would have a great chance of beating either Cain or JDS.

Unfortunately, we DO NOT have a time machine, so we can never prove it one way or the other.

Although if I did have a time machine that probably wouldn't be my first priority....
ghandikush
11/1/12 11:43:29PM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by cowcatcher

I can't even respond to Kingsmasher's post. It's like arguing with a butthole, all you'll get back is smelly, hot air.





This made me giggle like a school girl. I'm glad no one was around to hear.


Posted by ghandikush

Greatest of HIS time. Beating Big Nog down is no small feat but I hardly consider beating Schilt or the shy performance of CC to be any better wins than JDS beating Cain down. We need perspective. If Fedor is the best of all time HW now it wont be very long at all until a UFC HW eclipses the best portion of Fedors legacy.

Also as performance and talent go no HW may ever out perform Fedor but I'm willing to bet if we had a time machine guys like JDS and Cain would win that fight. It means something when you think how many HWs are close to those twos level.



Cowcatcher already responded with some of my thoughts but I felt the need to add a few things and reiterate a few others.

First, if you are going to claim that Fedor is not the current GOAT HW then you need to say who is. Most people who claim that Fedor isn't the GOAT HW run into a wall when they try to make an argument for someone else. I don't think that's exactly what you're doing though. You're saying that someone is going to surpass him.

Fine. But I could say the same thing about any one and it's not really something that can be backed up with evidence. You're making a blind prediction about the future. If you say "GSP is the greatest WW of all time" I can respond with "For now" but it doesn't really add anything to the conversation IMO.

I also think you're exaggerating the "evolution of the sport." Pretty much everyone who watches/analyzes MMA does this. I agree that the sport as a whole has evolved (there are more good fighters) but I don't think there is much of a difference between the guys at the top today and the guys at the top yesterday. I think that a prime Cro Cop and a prime Fedor would have a great chance of beating either Cain or JDS.

Unfortunately, we DO NOT have a time machine, so we can never prove it one way or the other.

Although if I did have a time machine that probably wouldn't be my first priority....



Youre all probably right, I call JDS current HW GOAT, I made that clear. Not a prediction but a star studded list of KTFO wins over top guys at age 25.
jay98107
11/2/12 1:22:35AM
My favorite part about people disputing the greatness of Fedor is that said people rarely offer an argument for someone else being the greatest heavyweight of all time. It's just generic hating.
Bubbles
11/2/12 9:03:32AM

Posted by ghandikush
You just said Silvas early finishes are from aggressive fighters early on but then go on to say youre surprised Vitor didnt charge him.


I said charge forward carelessly, not fight aggressive. Vitor is known for his quick hands and aggressiveness...and he fought out of character. That is what surprised me
ghandikush
11/2/12 2:39:37PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by ghandikush
You just said Silvas early finishes are from aggressive fighters early on but then go on to say youre surprised Vitor didnt charge him.


I said charge forward carelessly, not fight aggressive. Vitor is known for his quick hands and aggressiveness...and he fought out of character. That is what surprised me



I believe he took his time with both Lindland and Rich, but I can see what you mean.
jay98107
11/2/12 9:56:27PM

Posted by ghandikush


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by ghandikush
You just said Silvas early finishes are from aggressive fighters early on but then go on to say youre surprised Vitor didnt charge him.


I said charge forward carelessly, not fight aggressive. Vitor is known for his quick hands and aggressiveness...and he fought out of character. That is what surprised me



I believe he took his time with both Lindland and Rich, but I can see what you mean.



Lindland ran into a punch like 10 seconds into that fight.
prophecy033
11/2/12 10:27:29PM

Posted by jay98107


Posted by ghandikush


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by ghandikush
You just said Silvas early finishes are from aggressive fighters early on but then go on to say youre surprised Vitor didnt charge him.


I said charge forward carelessly, not fight aggressive. Vitor is known for his quick hands and aggressiveness...and he fought out of character. That is what surprised me



I believe he took his time with both Lindland and Rich, but I can see what you mean.



Lindland ran into a punch like 10 seconds into that fight.

Was it even that long?
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