Cung Le -- Still Doubtful

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warglory
3/29/08 11:18:18PM
First of all, there's no doubt that this fight with Shamrock was very exciting and well worth anyone's money as a main event bout. Cung worked his butt off and won, but I still don't consider him a top 5 combatant, and just barely top 10.

Tonight was a good litmus test, which showed that Cung has great technique, but some of the worst power I have ever seen with a kickboxer. Granted, if the fight stays on the feet Cung has a good chance of wearing his opponent down with amazing kicks, but Cung can't bide his time all the time, hoping he can wear his opponent down and stuff takedowns in order to win. Once Cung defeats a quality stand up opponent, then I will be convinced. Congrats to him, he deserved the win over a cocky Shamrock, but I want to see him pressured next time around.
Twenty20Dollars
3/29/08 11:22:30PM
shamrock was just trying to put on a show. cung hangs his hands low, could come back to hurt him, throws alot of kicks could get taken down more. flat footen. im just not sold on him right now, because it seemed frank wasnt really trying to win, because if frank wanted to really win he could have taken him down instead of just trying to stand up. do what you got to do to win.
juanez13
3/29/08 11:30:13PM
yea i'm still not sold on Cung, IMO he wouldnt outstrike anderson silva, i've heard so many people say that
StriderXero
3/29/08 11:32:32PM
I'd say he should go to the UFC (whenever his contract is done with) and leave without a doubt that he can really do this.
I sort of doubt him, but the thing about him is that the guy has balls......he was about to get KTFO and he pushed foward.
He is a true fighter.....True MMA fighter......I don't know yet
Twenty20Dollars
3/29/08 11:34:38PM
he needs to get more experienced first because right now theres alot of flaws to his game, and he's just getting by on the kicks and stuff.
warglory
3/29/08 11:54:12PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

he needs to get more experienced first because right now theres alot of flaws to his game, and he's just getting by on the kicks and stuff.



Right, and he is no CroCop, so those kicks will only hold off opponents who don't know how to get past them.
bls1919
3/30/08 1:39:16AM
Le really has no Ko power. He just kinda chips away at a guy and wears him down. This type of strategy won't work against a top 10 guy, let alone A. Silva. I'm glad to see Shamrock eat his words, but other than that cung le looked flat
StriderXero
3/30/08 2:53:36AM
I could have sworn I seen Shamrock bleed out of his ear by the end of round 3........but it could just be me..........but if it's true, making someone bleed out his ear like, must mean you have some sort of power. But I think his kick to the head tend to slap more than actually go WHAM.

Either way Cung Le and Shamrock were both great in this fight, and luckly I didn't have to pay.
cmill21
3/30/08 3:30:23AM
His kicks are like Glaube to me. Alot of show but not a ton of power. They are ussually very poweful but only if everything is perfect and that only happens in practice.
RMFG_187
3/30/08 4:06:23AM
IMO

just MO, dont hate.

Cung could take A Silva In 1-2 years. once he becomes well rounded, and steps his boxing game up, he will be UFC champ one day. Cung has so much potential.
ICSlegend
3/30/08 8:52:42AM
Yeah, everyone is spot on here. I didn't find Cung Le very impressive either. They both looked pretty out of shape though. I guess Frank's knee really is setting him back cardio-wise.

Cung's power is severely lacking. I think a good number of guys would beat Anderson, but Cung is not one of my picks. He's not that fast or precise, much less a KO artist. I don't think Anderson would have a problem outstriking him.

And Cung looked pretty bad whenever Shamrock "really pressured". Only once or twice, but Shamrock really is getting old, at least in terms of ring age. Cung's still got a lot to prove.
fullerene
3/30/08 10:08:00AM
I saw some holes in his game. But how do you criticize his power when he TKOs a guy who's oly been stopped once in 34 fights (and wasn't stopped by bigger guys like Tito and Bas) and does so by breaking his bones with a kick? They guy is 6-0 with 6 KOs. I haven't seen a problem with his ability to put people away yet.
Rush
3/30/08 1:00:31PM
As for Le's striking, well, after watching the fight I have to agree that his strikes did not have much power. My hunch is that his striking will be much less effective given a match with more takedowns.

I agree with the assessment that Frank lost this fight because of the way he fought not so much the was Le fought. Frank did not have a lot of movement, which caused him to absorb a lot of hits. Even if the hits were not power hits, they do take a toll.

That being said, I would like to see Cung fight a more dynamic striker and/or someone that will test his ground game. Frank did neither of that and did not succeed in changing my opinion about Cung.
ricardo
3/30/08 2:36:00PM
Hey you guys, don't forget that Cung Le is a world class fighter.....He is the world champion in kickboxing....Le could knock out any body, he does has power...he did not connect any thing flush against Frank. Most of the kicks and puches did not connect flush, most of them just glanced by Frank.....He broke Frank arm with his kick and I remeber in one of his kickboxing match he broke some dude shin with his kick. Remember this is MMa fight, anyone can knock anyone out with a flush kick or punch.....

Don't forget that Frank is a world class fighter either, how many people can beat Frank right now in this division?

Le is the fighter with many skills...I think he capable of beating anyone right now...



ncordless
3/30/08 3:32:00PM
I disagree with the assertion that Cung proved nothing versus Frank. He proved that he could beat a champion.

Cung Le is a completely unique specimen in MMA. There is no other fighter that brings the skillset that he does. People try to compare him to Cro Cop and A. Silva, but those are bad comparisons. His style is not like either. The only thing that is similar to Cro Cop is that they both have come in and shattered what we believe is possible in MMA by using a kick-based striking system and winning.


Cung's kicks are not powerful? Well, compared to Cro Cop that is true. They are powerful enough to break an ulna bone. He also is able to keep balanced and does not put himself in a bad spot when he kicks.

Cung's wrestling is poor? It hasn't been tested in the cage very much, but he has experience wrestling and I bet they may go over it once in a while at AKA. The only grappling goals that Cung should really ever have are to avoid being taken down and to get up if he has been taken down. So far, I have seen no holes in that part of his game.

Cung Le is 6-0 and still has a long ways to go before he proves himself among the top. He is one of those fighters who has come in hyped and as a result some people get offended by his early fame. Instead of trying to discount him as a top fighter, why not celebrate him for what he is? Cung Le is a one-of-a-kind MMA fighter whose style is exciting to watch and nearly impossible for anyone else to pull off.
ncordless
3/30/08 3:45:01PM

Posted by Rush

As for Le's striking, well, after watching the fight I have to agree that his strikes did not have much power. My hunch is that his striking will be much less effective given a match with more takedowns.

I agree with the assessment that Frank lost this fight because of the way he fought not so much the was Le fought. Frank did not have a lot of movement, which caused him to absorb a lot of hits. Even if the hits were not power hits, they do take a toll.

That being said, I would like to see Cung fight a more dynamic striker and/or someone that will test his ground game. Frank did neither of that and did not succeed in changing my opinion about Cung.



I've heard mention of Kazuo Misaki as the next opponent for Cung Le. IMO he would be a very strong test for Cung's striking. I'd lean towards Misaki in that one.
Rush
3/30/08 5:15:50PM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by Rush

As for Le's striking, well, after watching the fight I have to agree that his strikes did not have much power. My hunch is that his striking will be much less effective given a match with more takedowns.

I agree with the assessment that Frank lost this fight because of the way he fought not so much the was Le fought. Frank did not have a lot of movement, which caused him to absorb a lot of hits. Even if the hits were not power hits, they do take a toll.

That being said, I would like to see Cung fight a more dynamic striker and/or someone that will test his ground game. Frank did neither of that and did not succeed in changing my opinion about Cung.



I've heard mention of Kazuo Misaki as the next opponent for Cung Le. IMO he would be a very strong test for Cung's striking. I'd lean towards Misaki in that one.




I think Misaki would be a fair test for Cung. Hopefully you are right.
Mastodon2
3/30/08 5:49:32PM
Well, he certainly didn't impress me. I know a lot of guys are riding the anti-cung bandwagon, but having trained in Thai boxing, and being a striking fanatic, Cung's weak, out of context kicks just didn't wow me. He was just throwing kicks for kicks sake, hardly any of them were really landing clean and hard. Watch masters like Aerts and Le Banner at work, and you'll see how they barely waste a strike.

Cung on the other hand was just throwing them out willy-nilly. He doesnt seem arrogant, so the obvious show off factor of spinning back kicks and what not is perhaps not if. Maybe in his San Shou past he could get away with it, but he doesnt seem as versed as say, Badr Hari with such techniques. As soon as someone starts really aggressively trying to put him on the ground and keep him there, his fancy, yet somewhat sloppy and weak kicking game won't be much use!
Rush
3/30/08 7:47:57PM

Posted by Mastodon2

As soon as someone starts really aggressively trying to put him on the ground and keep him there, his fancy, yet somewhat sloppy and weak kicking game won't be much use!



I totally agree and we even saw that in the Shamrock fight. The two times Frank decided to engage (end of first and third rounds) Cung was in trouble.

I'm not anti-Cung Le myself, but you know it takes more than one "big" win for me to jump on the wagon. Let's just say that I haven't bought into the Cung Le hype
ricardo
3/30/08 8:48:47PM
I agree with cordless, people that say Le does not have skill and does not deserve to be one of the top fihgter in this division do not know what they are talking about.....look at Chuck Lidell, his stand up skills is not as good as Le but he is the top fighter and the former champ in his weight class....Chuck is the the top fighter b/c he is an intelligent and smart fighter....he knows how to avoid the take down (because that is his weakness) and knock out people that try to take him to the ground .How many fighters can take chuck down and finish him? ..what I am saying is Le can do the same as Chuck, avoid the take down and use yours kicks and punches to keep them away....He is 6-0 and no one has taken him down and ground and pound him yet.....

Frank did try to take Le down...he did try and did not succeed.....we don't know how's Le ground game is.......but beware just stop and think for a second....if Le ground game is just decent. who can match up with him?

warglory
3/30/08 9:37:53PM

Posted by ricardo

I agree with cordless, people that say Le does not have skill and does not deserve to be one of the top fihgter in this division do not know what they are talking about.....look at Chuck Lidell, his stand up skills is not as good as Le but he is the top fighter and the former champ in his weight class....Chuck is the the top fighter b/c he is an intelligent and smart fighter....he knows how to avoid the take down (because that is his weakness) and knock out people that try to take him to the ground .How many fighters can take chuck down and finish him? ..what I am saying is Le can do the same as Chuck, avoid the take down and use yours kicks and punches to keep them away....He is 6-0 and no one has taken him down and ground and pound him yet.....

Frank did try to take Le down...he did try and did not succeed.....we don't know how's Le ground game is.......but beware just stop and think for a second....if Le ground game is just decent. who can match up with him?




Chuck is an effective fighter because he is a defensive striker with BIG power, and in his heyday, the dominant fighters were wrestlers and BJJ artists, so they would often get caught by him trying to go for a clinch or a takedown. Chuck also has an incredible ability to simply stand up when he is taken down, absorbing punishment on the way up. Chuck is a brawler who has adopted MMA very very well in his career. Cung on the other hand is a traditional martial artist who has attempted to adopt his style. So far, he has had success and this can be attributed to his quick feet and range finding skills. However, he has faced c level fighters and one a level fighter with a horrible gameplan. No one has seen Cung under pressure (except for a few moments in the Shamrock fight) yet, so comparing him to Chuck is a bit premature.
warglory
3/30/08 9:40:20PM
Also, everyone saying that Cung is green and Shamrock is over the hill for a fighter, keep in mind that both fighters are the exact same age of 37. So can we realistically expect Cung to really improve his power and ability before he physically can't handle it anymore? Randy is an aberration, so please no comparisons.
Rush
3/30/08 11:04:33PM

Posted by warglory

Also, everyone saying that Cung is green and Shamrock is over the hill for a fighter, keep in mind that both fighters are the exact same age of 37. So can we realistically expect Cung to really improve his power and ability before he physically can't handle it anymore? Randy is an aberration, so please no comparisons.




They are both 35 years old.
warglory
3/31/08 10:29:16PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by warglory

Also, everyone saying that Cung is green and Shamrock is over the hill for a fighter, keep in mind that both fighters are the exact same age of 37. So can we realistically expect Cung to really improve his power and ability before he physically can't handle it anymore? Randy is an aberration, so please no comparisons.




They are both 35 years old.



Oh, my bad, I thought they were 37 for some reason. I stand corrected.
ButterBalls
3/31/08 11:39:28PM
I love how before the fight happened people were saying that Frank was going to kill Cung, how he wasn't even in the same class as Frank etc etc, and now people are saying Frank is over the hill (even though he is the same age as Cung.)

I personally like Cung and I think he's the real deal. Just because he didn't knock Frank out doesn't mean shit to me...I mean, lets be honest here...how many people HAVE knocked Frank out? He broke his damn arm kicking him, and not many people can say they have done that. Obviously his showy, no power kicks were doing SOMETHING.

I watch Cung and what I see is an unpredictable fighter who uses a good variety of kicks and punches to effectively keep his opponent off balance. He isn't ever going to amass a Crocop-like highlight real, but that too is fine with me. He's fast, he's agile, and he is good at evading punches (for the most part). He kept Frank at bay, and Frank isn't a bum, despite what some of you are NOW saying.
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