Covering the mouth?

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TimW001
3/10/08 3:09:08PM
Should this move be allowed in MMA? I don't know much about it. I believe it's a move from Jui-jitsu. I really don't see anything really wrong with it. One would never sufficate from it, and if you do then you should have been more mobile. I guess it looks kinda cheap, but whatever.

What do you think?
mkiv9secsupra
3/10/08 3:14:00PM
i thought it was allowed....

Dan Henderson does this quite often. He does it to disrupt the breathing. Actually he did it to Anderson Silva i think.
TimW001
3/10/08 3:15:45PM
No I know it is. I wanted to know your guy's thoughts on whether it shoudl be allowed.
Styles
3/10/08 3:16:39PM
I dont see any reason for it not being allowed. It is basically used to breakdown an opponents cardio, causing someone to breathe harder, making the blood pressure rise and creating a way to gas your opponent. It can also be used as a distraction to set-up a submission or a way to gain position. It isn't used to really finish any fights, kinda like a foot stomp and leg kicks in a medaphoric type of way I guess.
wolfman
3/10/08 3:18:18PM
I agree with you, yes it looks like a cheap tactic, but it is legal and effective in disrupting the breathing pattern. It seemed more common several years back, yet I still see some fighter using it today. Dan Henderson obviously used it recently and I think BJ still does it. In the end, I am fine with it being legal or illegal.

EDIT: Styles, pretty much summed it up perfectly. Props to you.
mkiv9secsupra
3/10/08 3:22:00PM

Posted by TimW001

No I know it is. I wanted to know your guy's thoughts on whether it shoudl be allowed.



oh ok i misread it sorry.

i dont see why it shouldnt be allowed. its basically a choke and its not as barbaric as an eye poke or hairpull.
juanez13
3/10/08 3:31:18PM
It affects your breathing pattern. Its not gonna stop te fight, but it contributes to getting tired quicker. alot of guys get tired quick because they dont breathe properly.
Styles
3/10/08 3:48:11PM

Posted by wolfman

I agree with you, yes it looks like a cheap tactic, but it is legal and effective in disrupting the breathing pattern. It seemed more common several years back, yet I still see some fighter using it today.



thats a shame. I have been saying it alot lately, all these new fighters are very well rounded and are very skilled when it comes to finishing fights. One thing that gets thrown out the window and causes these young guys to lose is all the little things that effect a fight. I feel it is more important to strike to the body, legs, foot stomps then it is to just go for a KO. Distrupting the breating in any way possible (as long as it is legal) I.E: body triangle, is a great way to swing a fight in your favor. I hear people critize fighters that get a choke hold and dont finish the fight. Sure, you should finish the fight if you are able to, but if you have a choke that is not sunk in deep, just hold it until the ound is over or the fight is restarted in the stand-up position (usually wont happen if a choke is applied). This is causing the lack of oxygen and will wear down a fighter quicker then most would like to think.

If you cant push off correctly to throw a punch and you are a great striker, you are limited to what you can do... that is when foot stomps really come into play. Alot of fighters over look this small detail as well. You also dont see it much, but when the fight is on the ground, most org's allow knee's to the shoulder, again, this will greatly affect a key striker if used properly.

Moral of the story, dont over look the small things that can effect a fight.
stock
3/10/08 4:38:08PM
I agree with what most have said; I have no problem with it.

Not only is it a good tactic as it can disrupt a breathing pattern, but it can also be used to set up a gaurd pass.
Henderson was actually almost able to slip into side mount against Silva as there was a point where Silva had to take his hand off of Hendu's knee to try to control his hand over the mouth. It would have worked against a lesser fighter too.

I don't think there is anything cheap about it.
nickcuc547
3/10/08 5:03:26PM
if done correctly i think it could be a fairly effective technique. disrupting the breathing is big, i definitely thhink it should be allowed, it's like a half assed choke that won't put you to sleep, but could be effective in a long fight.
Rush
3/10/08 5:14:02PM
When my friends and I grapple we do this all the time. It throws the breathing off and distracts the opponent. I found little to no risk of doing this so I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. The only potential risk I see is that your fingers can get close the guy's eyes so you risk giving an eye poke.... but then again, there are risks with every move in MMA
disorderlyvision
3/10/08 5:14:02PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra

i thought it was allowed....

Dan Henderson does this quite often. He does it to disrupt the breathing. Actually he did it to Anderson Silva i think.



You think?!? he did it the whole f'n round. seriously, i never minded the move until silva v hendo then i thought it was just ridiculous. a lot of fighter have utilized it, but they momentarily done it to disrupt breathing and distract the other fighter so the could capitalize. however it seemed like that was hendos games plan. i dont think it should be disallowed but i think if all a fighter is going to do is cover somones mouth the ref should stand them up. hendo didnt even cover silvas nose half the time. had the mouth covered and silva was breathing through his nose it wasnt even effective which is probably why anderson was squirming or trying to defend it. it was excessive and ridiculous.

i think we can cross mouth covering off the list of potential silva krytonite, maybe dan should have thrown a flying scissor heel hook out of nowhere. that might work.
Mastodon2
3/10/08 5:57:41PM
It's fine, we need less namby pamby rule cutting in MMA, they are doing more and more to make it less like real combat, which lets not forget is the point of the sport, to see who is best in combat. It's allowed and it doesnt need to be changed.


One thing I'm not sure are allowed in the US at least, but I saw Tom Erikson do it in Pride, open handed chokes, anyone know the status on these in the US? Tom just wrapped his hand around Matt Skelton's throat and squeezed and he tapped pretty damn quick. Seems Easy enough to do if you have strong forearms.
seanfu
3/10/08 6:02:12PM
I think it's just fine. I also agree with the above comment on the overlooked details. When I box I punch shoulders and elbows if I can.

When I spar MMA I use a lot of body shots with knees and left kicks. I train a lot of elbows to the body standing, and drill heelkicks from bottom.

Something that is overlooked a lot, maybe because of the evolutuin of MMA is the old school open palm pop shot to the ears from bottom to take the equilibrium out Rutten and F. Shamrock style.
Mastodon2
3/10/08 7:20:54PM

Posted by seanfu
I think it's just fine. I also agree with the above comment on the overlooked details. When I box I punch shoulders and elbows if I can.



Just curious as to why you punch elbows, I was trained to block with my elbows cause a fist will break much easier than my elbow will. Muay Thai teaches elbow blocks for a reason, they have been a fantastic defense for hundreds of years!
seanfu
3/10/08 8:40:26PM
When you punch NEAR the elbow or hit the side of the elbow you can swell the area up and make 'em tire faster from throwing punches.
If you hit it wrong bye bye knuckles and fist.
postman
3/10/08 8:58:55PM
I like to use it myself i figure if you can't or won't stop me from messing with your breathing then thats your problem.
bls1919
3/10/08 11:09:14PM
In a sport where "chokes" are allowed i think disrupting breathing thru covering the mouth is alright. Although these "chokes" are "blood chokes" and are legal and "wind chokes" aren't. I'm not sure. You cant put your hand around a mans throat and squeeze. So IDK in short
Svartorm
3/11/08 3:24:44AM
One hand chokes, like with Erikson vs. Skelton, are considered an attack on the throat, which is illegal. Same reason a ten-finger guillotine is illegal.

Oxygen chokes are not illegal, as a guillotine, depending on how its applied, is an oxygen choke, as is a gogoplata, and a few less common ones, like front chokes and hawaiian chokes.
Jackelope
3/11/08 4:22:45AM
I don't think it's cheap at all. Never have I seen a single fight when I thought it was cheap. There's a certain level of risk involved with putting your hands in someone's face like that, too. Especially from inside the guard. Can we say armbar, anyone?

All things aside whether it's cheap or not, and whether it involves risk or not, I think the move is fine and should always be allowed.
CactusBob
3/11/08 6:56:45AM

Posted by Styles

I dont see any reason for it not being allowed. It is basically used to breakdown an opponents cardio, causing someone to breathe harder, making the blood pressure rise and creating a way to gas your opponent. It can also be used as a distraction to set-up a submission or a way to gain position. It isn't used to really finish any fights, kinda like a foot stomp and leg kicks in a medaphoric type of way I guess.


It is not done to raise blood pressure. You cannot end a fight by raising blood pressure, or defeat someone through hypertension. Just thought I would point that out...
I like the move, it is a good distraction to further ones positoning, maybe even helps keep the action moving.
saemskin
3/11/08 8:49:59AM
I understand why people do it, but when I see it -much like a foot stomp- it just seems cheap to me. I dont like it myself.
stock
3/11/08 11:46:44AM
Disagree to agree.
saemskin
3/11/08 1:23:34PM
If you covered my mouth I would bite your finger.

crunch!
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