Oh the controversy!

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MMA
8/26/07 9:10:43PM
As many of you are well aware, Sobral is being punished for his latest actions in his fight against David Heath. Now I am not questioning whether Babalu should be punished or not, but I am curious to know why BJ did not get a similar punishment for what he did.

The circumstances were slightly different in the two fights, but the fact still remains that BJ intentionally held his choke for an extended period of time because of his bad blood with Jens. Babalu did the same (although Heath was in a more severe condition).

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?

Discuss.
Jackelope
8/26/07 9:17:04PM
I think Babalu's attitude toward the whole thing helped fuel the fire. It's not like he tried to play it off as an accident. Not that it would change the meaning behind it if he did, but it would make it so it wasn't quite as blatant.
Twenty20Dollars
8/26/07 9:31:49PM
I think its because babalu looked at steve and just grinded his teeth. where at bj's back was to the ref so he couldnt see him. babalu made his statement, its all about respect.
loonytnt
8/26/07 9:38:47PM
respect?? oh yeah he got a lot of respect didnt he...... he lost respect from any fighter out there thats bull..it sounds like 90% of people last nite felt the same way to
juanez13
8/26/07 9:45:53PM

Posted by MMA

As many of you are well aware, Sobral is being punished for his latest actions in his fight against David Heath. Now I am not questioning whether Babalu should be punished or not, but I am curious to know why BJ did not get a similar punishment for what he did.

The circumstances were slightly different in the two fights, but the fact still remains that BJ intentionally held his choke for an extended period of time because of his bad blood with Jens. Babalu did the same (although Heath was in a more severe condition).

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?

Discuss.



thats what i have been saying in all the other threads that are bashing babalu, it defenately didnt look like 7 secs, and its the same thing when martin kampman chocked out drew, or when marcus aurelio chocked out gomi, but ppl are trying to say it like he could have died or have very serious injuries from passing out from that choke, and things like this have happened to other guys to that people dont go all crazy about like when gomi fought Luiz Azeredo the first time, he kocked him out and kept punching him, but i didnt see everybody go all nuts about it, i know it not the right thing to do, but i think people are just making to much out of it
fullerene
8/26/07 9:46:30PM

Posted by MMA

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?
.


I might be wrong in my memory, but I think BJ Penn did not respond to the tap of Pulver but did break the hold very quickly after the ref stepped in.

I don't think the official rule is that you need to break from the tap (is it?)--I think the tap signals to the referee that the fight should be stopped. I know in most cases it's obvous and it's good sportsmanship to stop, but there is an opening for controversy if you force the person applying the sub to make the call (Barnett thought Nog tapped verbally and Royce claims Sak tapped in their first fight, for example).

So I guess I see Babalu's actions as clearly violating the rules while Penn's only violated the informal rules of good sportsmanship.
jocksmall
8/26/07 9:51:00PM
babalu had a great fight and then this. some guys cant get out of thier own way.
i dont know babalu , havent read many of his comment except all access ufc. i have rooted for the guy for some reason. i just might be that guys with alot of character are able to achieve more. this could have been his ticket back in but instead it maybe a oneway ticket out of the ufc.
the ufc can ill afford this type of press that this could generate. the ufc will probably have to come down hard on babalu and set some guidelines for future fights. if one of these guys dies in the ring these events could be outlawed.
give babalu a one year suspension.
yes post author you are right bj held his choke too long as well, but the ufc has never been known for its consistancy and fair treatment. this maybe the wakeup call thats needed to make it clear that consistancy and fair treatment are needed. many of the old fights went on like this after the stoppage. royce did it several times and i can remember coleman kneeing a guy late.
Bountytaker
8/26/07 10:04:30PM
When you tell an announcer, and the entire audience, that you held on after thereferee's warning , on purpose....you've taken things to a different level. Period. And at that level, the punishment should be, and will be, quick and severe. Period.


From Zuffa/Dana's perspective: The sport wants to grow, in respect and in finances. It can't afford to have goons and thugs pushing the limits of the safety measures they've enacted. Those safety measures are the reason the organization didn't die off. The anti-mma/pro-boxing crowd is just WAITING for a major injury/death so they can push their message to the masses. If these guys want THEIR sport to stay around....they have to do everything in their power to keep things on the straight an narrow.



BTW: I'm a Babalu fan...I picked him to beat Liddel way back when...so this is not an anti-Babalu rant.
Rush
8/26/07 10:11:46PM

Posted by fullerene

I might be wrong in my memory, but I think BJ Penn did not respond to the tap of Pulver but did break the hold very quickly after the ref stepped in.

I don't think the official rule is that you need to break from the tap (is it?)--I think the tap signals to the referee that the fight should be stopped. I know in most cases it's obvous and it's good sportsmanship to stop, but there is an opening for controversy if you force the person applying the sub to make the call (Barnett thought Nog tapped verbally and Royce claims Sak tapped in their first fight, for example).

So I guess I see Babalu's actions as clearly violating the rules while Penn's only violated the informal rules of good sportsmanship.




This is more or less the way I look at it.

Look back at UFC 1 where Shamrock tapped and the ref did nothing. I can tell you from that and personal experiences that I would only let go when the ref calls the fight or the bell rings.
Svartorm
8/26/07 10:50:28PM

Posted by fullerene


Posted by MMA

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?
.


I might be wrong in my memory, but I think BJ Penn did not respond to the tap of Pulver but did break the hold very quickly after the ref stepped in.

I don't think the official rule is that you need to break from the tap (is it?)--I think the tap signals to the referee that the fight should be stopped. I know in most cases it's obvous and it's good sportsmanship to stop, but there is an opening for controversy if you force the person applying the sub to make the call (Barnett thought Nog tapped verbally and Royce claims Sak tapped in their first fight, for example).

So I guess I see Babalu's actions as clearly violating the rules while Penn's only violated the informal rules of good sportsmanship.



You are absolutely correct. The fight isn't over until the ref stops it, and there have been a few fights were Fighter A taps, Fighter B lets go, Fighter A claims he never tapped and the fight has to continue because the ref didn't see it. (download Igor Vochyncyn vs. Bob Schrijber for a laugh concerning that )

As mentioned though, Babalu knew the fight was over and kept going.
cmill21
8/26/07 11:06:40PM
Yeah BJ held it for a second babalu held it and put him to sleep.
Kastro
8/26/07 11:10:26PM

Posted by MMA

As many of you are well aware, Sobral is being punished for his latest actions in his fight against David Heath. Now I am not questioning whether Babalu should be punished or not, but I am curious to know why BJ did not get a similar punishment for what he did.

The circumstances were slightly different in the two fights, but the fact still remains that BJ intentionally held his choke for an extended period of time because of his bad blood with Jens. Babalu did the same (although Heath was in a more severe condition).

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?

Discuss.



Very well said!

There has also been other fights I can think of that went on worse then Babalu's fight with Heath. No doubt what Babalu did is not good for MMA and will definitely not help new people understand and appreciate the sport..

Its sort of a toss up, Babalu was fired up I understand how it is, but then again its the wrong thing to do.. He shouldn't have his purse confiscated IMHO,
DJDark41
8/26/07 11:16:18PM

Posted by MMA

As many of you are well aware, Sobral is being punished for his latest actions in his fight against David Heath. Now I am not questioning whether Babalu should be punished or not, but I am curious to know why BJ did not get a similar punishment for what he did.

The circumstances were slightly different in the two fights, but the fact still remains that BJ intentionally held his choke for an extended period of time because of his bad blood with Jens. Babalu did the same (although Heath was in a more severe condition).

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?

Discuss.






BJ held the choke about a second, two seconds at max, after Jens tapped and the ref came over, but BJ let go under his own power, and Jens was ok. Babalu held on for about 7 seconds, despite frantic grabbing by the ref, and David Heath was unconcious afterwards, so Babalu's choke was much worse then BJ Penns.
paulhauffe
8/27/07 8:37:36AM
I agree with you guys, in the BJ case the fight isnt over until the referee steps in, so technically he didnt to much wrong. It was Babalu's post fight comments which has made it worse for himself, saying that he intentionally did it to teach him a lesson. rumour has it the NSAC are fining him half of his purse, which is fair enough for such a blatent breaking of rules.
TNunley
8/27/07 9:09:36AM

Posted by fullerene

I might be wrong in my memory, but I think BJ Penn did not respond to the tap of Pulver but did break the hold very quickly after the ref stepped in.

I don't think the official rule is that you need to break from the tap (is it?)--I think the tap signals to the referee that the fight should be stopped. I know in most cases it's obvous and it's good sportsmanship to stop, but there is an opening for controversy if you force the person applying the sub to make the call (Barnett thought Nog tapped verbally and Royce claims Sak tapped in their first fight, for example).

So I guess I see Babalu's actions as clearly violating the rules while Penn's only violated the informal rules of good sportsmanship.



You're right, I've even heard John McCarthy explain that the fight only stops when he stops it.
MMA
8/27/07 9:19:44AM
I watched the Babalu-Heath fight and no way did it look like it was 7s. Also for those who said that BJ did not realize that Jens tapped are being delusional. BJ states in one of his latest interviews that he intentionally held the choke longer and regrets releasing it so early!

I understand the circumstances was slightly difference in Babalu's case (Heath being in a more severe condition and the choked applied slightly longer) but they were both ill intents. BJ got off without even a slap on the wrist.

I have to watch the BJ-Jens fight again but I thought the ref also had to apply some force to get BJ to stop (not 100% certain).
Stickan
8/27/07 10:38:01AM

Posted by fullerene


Posted by MMA

So what is up with the double-standard? Shouldn't BJ also receive some disciplinary actions for what he did to Jens or are people willing to overlook the fact that BJ held his choke on longer because it's BJ?
.


I might be wrong in my memory, but I think BJ Penn did not respond to the tap of Pulver but did break the hold very quickly after the ref stepped in.

I don't think the official rule is that you need to break from the tap (is it?)--I think the tap signals to the referee that the fight should be stopped. I know in most cases it's obvous and it's good sportsmanship to stop, but there is an opening for controversy if you force the person applying the sub to make the call (Barnett thought Nog tapped verbally and Royce claims Sak tapped in their first fight, for example).

So I guess I see Babalu's actions as clearly violating the rules while Penn's only violated the informal rules of good sportsmanship.


Great analysis. Babalu´s blatant disrespect for the referee should get him suspended IMO. Even though it doesn't kill anybody to hold an extra 2 seconds the behaviour is dangerous and it's shit like that, that will one day kill someone in this sport. If I'm a proffessional fighter I don't want to fear for my life when I'm on the ground grappling with my opponent.

Great step by Keith Kizer to take away half of his purse. If Babalu pulls that shit again he should get suspended for life.
waylon_o
8/27/07 10:45:27AM
If you think he held on for seven seconds after the tap, you didn't watch the clip or you have absolutely no sense of time.
nubby
8/27/07 12:02:15PM
He did not hold for 7 seconds after the tap. He held for almost exactly 3 seconds after the tap. Count out loud when you watch it One-one thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand. However, those three seconds were three seconds too much. I say suspend Babalu and if he does it again ban his ass from competing in the US.
tepid55
8/27/07 12:29:45PM
The UFC needs to go back to its old-school roots.
fullerene
8/27/07 12:47:26PM

Posted by tepid55

The UFC needs to go back to its old-school roots.


What exactly are those? Fights sanctioned by Indian Reservations between guys with karate pants, tank-tops and mullets?
Mastodon2
8/27/07 12:58:36PM
I just watched the fight there, Babalu looked amazing!

No way is this choke anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be though. He didnt hold it that long after the tap, and if he hadnt looked so aggressive as he was doing it then I dont think they would have considered it malicious intent, and he wouldn't have been punished.

I was really impressed with Babalu's performance, he really messed Heath up!
SteedTheDeed
8/27/07 1:41:07PM
heath disrespected babalu by wearing his mugshot as a shirt so babalu disrespected him right back.
loller90278
8/27/07 1:47:04PM
i dont know about you guys but if someone wore my mugshot picture in public (i look hideous) i would do the same exact thing babalu did.. teach that punk a lesson. i lost no respect for babalu like some people have infact i may have gained some. that choke is not as bad as people say it is.

although, i do disagree with the punishment from the NSAC. they fined babalu 25k. i personally think they should have just suspended him for six months.
Jackelope
8/27/07 2:08:52PM
^^ these guys are professionals, and they need to hold themselves to that standard. Heath was an idiot for disrespecting Babalu, and Babalu was an idiot for disrespecting the sport/fans. I don't think people realize how bad something like this can hurt the MMA world. Babalu obviously doesn't realize it, so teach him a lesson in the form of 25k.
nubby
8/27/07 3:25:04PM

Posted by loller90278

i dont know about you guys but if someone wore my mugshot picture in public (i look hideous) i would do the same exact thing babalu did.. teach that punk a lesson. i lost no respect for babalu like some people have infact i may have gained some. that choke is not as bad as people say it is.

although, i do disagree with the punishment from the NSAC. they fined babalu 25k. i personally think they should have just suspended him for six months.


This is the kind of infantile mentality that gives critics ammunition for the sport. Heath wore a T-Shirt and Sobral Choked the guy unconcious after he tapped, yeah that's the same thing right? It's not OK to pull that kind of shit, what if the next time Sobral wants to teach someone else a lesson except this time it's an armbar and he gives the guy a dislocated arm, is that not a big deal either? The reality is that even if choking Heath unconcious was not terribly dangerous for his health it shows Sobrals neglegence and lack of forethought. Dana would be an utter idiot not to punish this guy with a suspension and threaten a ban if he does it again.
Stickan
8/27/07 3:42:25PM

Posted by nubby


Posted by loller90278

i dont know about you guys but if someone wore my mugshot picture in public (i look hideous) i would do the same exact thing babalu did.. teach that punk a lesson. i lost no respect for babalu like some people have infact i may have gained some. that choke is not as bad as people say it is.

although, i do disagree with the punishment from the NSAC. they fined babalu 25k. i personally think they should have just suspended him for six months.


This is the kind of infantile mentality that gives critics ammunition for the sport. Heath wore a T-Shirt and Sobral Choked the guy unconcious after he tapped, yeah that's the same thing right? It's not OK to pull that kind of shit, what if the next time Sobral wants to teach someone else a lesson except this time it's an armbar and he gives the guy a dislocated arm, is that not a big deal either? The reality is that even if choking Heath unconcious was not terribly dangerous for his health it shows Sobrals neglegence and lack of forethought. Dana would be an utter idiot not to punish this guy with a suspension and threaten a ban if he does it again.


Exactly. What kind of caveman mentality is it to disrespect the sport, the organization and the referee to get revenge for something nobody's even seen (pics or proof please!?!?)!?. Even if he did wear a shirt like that, how childish, ignorant and stupid do you have to be to care about that.

He used to be one of my favorites. Gotta go watch Lambert knock his ass out a few times now....
Damien6663
8/27/07 3:55:06PM
im sure id babalu just said his adrenaline was up and he didnt realize he tapped, he would not have gotten fined, but his attitude did not help.
nubby
8/27/07 4:42:33PM

Posted by Damien6663

im sure id babalu just said his adrenaline was up and he didnt realize he tapped, he would not have gotten fined, but his attitude did not help.


You are absolutely right, which explains why BJ wasn't slapped with a fine.
alvin
8/27/07 4:45:58PM
Let's just hope it doesn't make ESPN if it hasn't already. Nice work Renato. Just what this sport needs as it's finally emerging as legitimate. Thank god for guys like Randy.
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